Classical music: What does it represent?

[hornplayer]

There have been many claims by scientists that early music (not just Classical) helps to increase brain activity and a whole bunch of other beneficial stuff. But can Classical music help society in any way, say, if more people liked it, would it mean anything? Does Classical music trancend other music, and does its "fans" signify a certain type of person? I tend to belive that early music is greater and simply better (in all respects) than later music, including todays popular music. But what makes a person truly LOVE early music, not just like a few songs, but amass entire collections of it? I am high school, and I have over ninety CDs worth of early music...and when I listen to most popular music of today, I am sickened. For a while I had felt that those who totally disliked classical music and were fanatics of only Blink 182 and other such popular "garbage" (in my opinion) were somehow...different, but that is not the right word. I know that this post is probably very confusing and the questions may seem unrelated, but any thoughts you may have about anything related would be great. And yes, I do play the Horn.<p>[This message has been edited by hornplayer (edited 01-29-2001).]

[shostakovich]

Hi Hornplayer. How "early" is the early music you collect? What period or century? For me and for some other contributors to the bulletin board, classical music has been on a steady decline since Beethoven, regarding quality. Yet the fine quality of Bach's, Mozart's, Beethoven's music is for many people too much "work" to appreciate. We have steadily considered music less an art and more an entertainment (and now a goddam BUSINESS) as the centuries roll on. <BR> <BR> Your other question about what classical music does for people is a good one. First of all it requires THINKING and PATIENCE, two things in short supply in our population. It's also a great CONNECTION to other disciplines. A piece can spawn a new interest outside of music. The 1812 leads to Russian history. Orpheus and Eurydice leads to Greek mythology. The opera Lulu delves into psychology (porn and crime, too). Smetana's My Fatherland brings us less familiar legends. Ibert's Escales is one of many travelogues. Literature and religion are heavily represented in music. You get the idea. Popular music generally connects only to its own time. <BR> And finally, behavior at a classical concert is more refined than that at a rock concert, with the single exception of the premiere of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. But that was in Paris, 1913, an exceptional time and place dealing with an exceptional piece of music.<BR>I hope this response hasn't overloaded you, Hornplayer. I get carried away sometime.<BR>Shos

[hornplayer]

Hello...i have simpy gotten into the habit of calling "Classical Music" by the name "Early Music" after I started taking Comprehensive Foundation of Music at my HS. As for what is actually the eariest that I collect, the answer would probably Baroque, but I have a few Renaissance pieces here and there.<BR>I would have to agree that the quality of music has been on a decline since the works of its masters, but that is simply the average. I mentioned in another post somewhere that I greatly enjoy Richard Strauss...while yes, at the same time, I dislike many, if not most, of more "modern" Classical composers.<BR>Without a doubt readily say that Classical and early Romantic music has been the greatest that has been written, before or since. As I said, I can easily do without the popular garbage of today...and I often say that it is most definatly "lesser" music. I wont say that people who dont listen to Classical music are somehow "less" as well (in that they dont appreciate or find Classical music too boring), but they are definatly missing something without realizing. <P>P.S. "Art" in the sense of drawings or paintings has never done anything for me.<p>[This message has been edited by hornplayer (edited 01-28-2001).]

[~Leslie]

Tell us about the premier of the Rite of Spring, Shos. I understand it nearly turned into a vehicle rolling riot. <P>Hornplayer, your posts have the tone of an elitist. Are you into jazz?~

[hornplayer]

I suppose that in many respects I am an elitist, and no, I strongly dislike most jazz. I play the French Horn in the school jazz band simply for practice at transposing form Trombone, not because I like the music. I prefer the concert band music and any arrangements of Classical pieces we might play.

[~Leslie]

High school jazz arrangements are certainly NOT the kind of jazz I was refering to. <BR>I'm not talking about SUPERBOWL INTERMISSION here for cryin' out loud!!!!!!!!!!<BR>@~Strike another blow for elitistism~

[hornplayer]

I have no idea what you meant when you were reffering to the Superbowl...and I wasnt referring to High School Jazz when I said I dislike Jazz. I dislike ALL Jazz, real, fake, bad, good, etc...there are very few songs I like, if any at all. Are you out to get people who favor the elite? Why do you have a vendetta against them? Id hardly call myself elite, but Im certainly close to the top...I also dont think that you have to be elite to like Classical music, or that if you dont you are a lesser person in some way...but yes, there are times when Ill favor elitism...<P>Or am I totally wrong altogether and you are an elitist yourself? And what does Jazz have to do with it?<p>[This message has been edited by hornplayer (edited 01-28-2001).]

[shostakovich]

Hi Leslie. Pierre Monteux conducted that first performance of the Rite. The following comes from his recollections.<P>Le Sacre du Printemps was presented in 1913 at the Theatre des Champs-Elysees in Paris, and cause a scandal it certainly did. The audience remained quiet for the first two minutes. Then came boos and catcalls from the gallery, soon after from the lower floors. Neighbors began to hit each other over the head with fists, canes or whatever came to hand. Soon this anger was concentrated against the dancers, and then, more particularly, against the orchestra, the direct perpetrator of the musical crime. Everything available was tossed in our direction, but we continued to play on. The end of the performance was greeted by the arrival of gendarmes. Stravinsky had disappeared through a window backstage, to wander disconsolately along the streets of Paris.<P>There's also a video of the movie, Nijinsky. It is about Nijinsky and Diaghilev, the impresario who created the Ballets Russes, later called Ballets Russes de Monte Carlo, when they found a permanent home there. The film includes ballet excerpts from Prelude to the Afternoon of the Faun and Jeux, both with music by Debussy. It also contains scenes of rehearsals and a few minutes of the first performance of Rite, the scandal. The flavor of the film is accurate and wonderful. The portrayal of Diaghilev by Alan Bates is, I think, outstanding. <BR>I hope you and some other readers will check it out.<BR>Shos<BR>

[serge urtizberea]

Hard luck, that premiere. I can't entirely sympathize with Stravinsky, though. There's hardly a work of his I can bear to listen to! Music needs to "flow", but I don't find his does. Maybe in ten years...<P>If anyone thinks c.m. is elitist, that's only because they aren't bothering to get into it! C.m. is just as accessible as any other music genre and almost every good-sized urban area has venues to listen to it and put a human face to it. I guess few people get into it because no one else does; a vicious circle of sorts, I suppose. But if the only people I ever talk to about c.m. are right here on the net, then there could be an image problem, all right. Time to call in the ad agencies...

[treebeau]

Leslie: Is everything ok ? Normally your posts are very straightforward and informational. I was confused to see all the uppercase and exclamation points in your posts to "hornplayer" and thought it looked too confrontational to come from you.<P>I think it's admirable for hornplayer to love Classical Music to the point of excluding popular music. For someone so young that is a fine demonstration of individuality. With encouragement, who knows, Hornplayer may one day be that successor to Beethoven that has been discussed in other posts.

[Nicole Marie]

Sorry I'm late in Posting...just got back from vacation. <P>Referring to HornPlayers first posting about does classical music bring in a "type" of person? As a side thought....John Nowacki and I were having a conversation about what types of people play certain instruments. Violinist are they all a certain way? Are all singers the type to steal the spot light? I tend to think so. Any thoughts?

[josh2146]

Hi everyone, <P>I'm new here, and I just finished reading hornplayer's message. First off, I used to play horn, its a great instrument. Second, when you talk about classical music being better than other music, I think you should clarify...maybe you mean it is more of an art form than popular music? if that's the case then I'd have to agree. However, when you say that one type of music is better than another I think you are being a little close-minded (please dont take any offense, I used to think the same way) I think the point of music is to make you feel a certain way, to have certain emotions magnified. Different types of music do that for different types of people. In that aspect no single genre of music is "better" than any other...each type serves it's purpose. Maybe you should try expanding your tastes in music. Im not saying that pop music is on the same level as classical music, in the sense of artistic quality, im just saying that whether its ricky martin, BB King, Mozart, eminem, or Beethoven, their music effects people in practically the same way. Now someone might say Mozart is "deeper" than pop music...maybe for you, but there are people out there who can relate to pop music, but not Mozart. You should respect peoples taste in music. I would have to agree with ~Leslie that you do have somewhat of an elitist tone. Sorry for writing so much.<BR> josh2146

[hornplayer]

This is long, but please read it:<P>I dont believe that Ive said that Classical Music is for an elite, and if i did that is foolish and I take it back. It is the people who say 'You wouldnt like Classical Music, you would find it boring' that stop Classical Music from becoming more popular. I also feel that the people who listen exclusively to C.M. are missing something as well...other groups I enjoy include Pink Floyd, the Doors, the Beatles, and lots of other songs by lots of other artists. Perhaps much of C.M. was for an elite when it was first written, for a varitey of reasons, but not anymore.<P>But whereas I can buy a CD of early music and I am sure that I will enjoy at least 80% of it, I am not going to buy CDs of popular music for one or two songs..thats what Napster and a CD-Burner is for...and if Napster shut down I still wouldnt buy them. So yes, I like C.M. much more than popular music, but not exclusively.<P>Classical music in my opinion does represent a higher art form, and the music, in my opinion, is of a higher quality. I would have to agree with john when he says that different types of music do different things for different people. And yes, those who listen exclusively to one type of music are missing something.<P>But I am sticking to my guns when I say that some of the music is trash. Yes, if someone likes that music, and it affects them positively, then that is their right and they should go right ahead and listen to it, and nobody should stop them...that is the purpose of music, for enjoyment. But because someone listens to it and enjoyes it does not mean that it is good music...yes, it maybe serving its purpose, and yes, maybe there are people who connect with it better than C.M...but there are many songs that are below the level of art at all. Rap, which rhymes with crap for a reason, has produced songs with lyrics that would make most people sick...songs that threaten and describe rape, graphic murders, beatings, cop killings...the are on the border between noise and art...and many will tell you that the Rap artists are simply exposing the problems of society, and perhaps SOME are. But some arent.<P>And Im not sitting here writing saying that jazz, blues, dance, the Backstreet Boys, whatever it may be, sucks. Ill respect most music, and Ill be the first one to tell you that I listen to a lot of it. But there is many songs/genres where the level of art is decreasing, and I still feel that Classical Music embodies some of the best that the human mind has created.<P>Perhaps because I am in HS my opinions are weighted slightly...it is everyday that I see the kids that listen to various kinds of music. The kids are suspended for cursing at teachers, cutting classes, and smoking in the bathroom certainly dont carry Mozarts 40th in their pocket for their enjoyment. The kids on the corner who smoke before, during and after school are discussing the next time they are getting blazed, not Verdi or Wagner. Perhaps because I am in HS and I see what kinds of people listen to what kinds of music that I judge certain artists or genres harshly. This next statement, I know, will enrage many people here, and Ill be disliked from now on...but Eric Harris and Dylan Kleibold certainly didnt murder their schoolmates with the New World symphony in their locker.<P>I do not feel that stereotyping is a good idea, or that I can safley describe people without knowing them, and that you dont have to listen to Metallica to commit a crime...but i think that it IS fair to look at the trends and the overall picture.<p>[This message has been edited by hornplayer (edited 01-29-2001).]

[shostakovich]

Hi Hornplayer. It was long, and I read it. Your heart is in the right place. Your head is in the right music. You are right about classical music being "early music". The closest thing to it today is film music. But if you want the deepest and most meaningful music in the western world, then look to the "older" stuff. That's what you, and, I assume, all people in beethoven.com land are doing.<BR>Your ally, Shos.

[hornplayer]

I am pretty new to these message boards, and I am glad that my posts have sparked some good discussion. But despite my being a novice, I can tell that you, shostakovich, are very intelligent and are respected here on these boards, and thus I consider it an honor for you to praise me as highly as you did in your previous post. I thank you.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by hornplayer (edited 01-29-2001).]

[Flowerboy]

Hello, all. I'ts been fabulous just watching this argument grow from the sidelines! I haven't replied to any messages yet because i've wanted to see in which direction this argument would turn. Well now i declare myself away from the sidelines and i will post my own arugument.<BR>Hornplayer, i am glad you started to note about society and the way today's "teen" music is protrayed within society today. What i'm going to say now should NOT be taken as a stereotype, and i wish NOT to offend anyone.<BR>To be honest with you, i am the one hornplayer was talking about "smoking a joint - not listening to New World Symphony". I Do enjoy recrational delicacies once in a while. I do smoke, and have smoked during school. I do smoke something else (420 if you get what i mean). And being a minor, i enjoy vodka and coke before bed to help relieve the stresses of my life. No, im not a criminal. <BR>The point i was getting to, though, is that yes, i do believe that our "teen" society today is GREATLY influenced by modern music (rap, pop, ska, metal, etc.) And that this music helps portray certain situations - sex, drugs, criminal acts, rebellion, etc. I believe they do have an effect on society, and i do also believe that my theory is VICE VERSA - as in society has an effect on music. They both (society and today's music) have an effect on each other. The music of long ago (early music) was the most popular form of music then. You didnt see teenagers head banging to mozart or doing mosh pits at a Beethoven Concert. As a matter of fact, a couple of musicians popular to teens were Paganini, and Lizst. That was then. Now, and from time up till now, people strive to discover NEW WAYS OF ART FORM. Here is where you get your jazz, Beatles, Monkees, Michael Jackson, Rolling Stones, Britney Spears, Mariah Carey, Elton John, Mettalica (which i enjoy sometimes) Limp Biscuits, lol, and Creed. Becoming more popular is Techno. You see, my friends, society is ever changing, and artistic expressions and music WILL CHANGE WITH IT. It also depends on peoples lives and their atmosphere growing up that can affect what kids will like. My kids will listen to MUCH classical music growing up. Hopefully they will enjoy it too. You see my freinds, time changes. Classical Music might not ever fade away, because i also believe that Classical Music will be one of the most highest form of expression, and their creators and performers among the most genius of men. Perhaps i might have strayed from the points of the above replies. But this is where i stand and what i believe to be true. I will never lose my interest in Classical Music until the day I die and go into the afterworld. Maybe i might listen to it then. Who knows?? That is all i have to say for now. ALL REPLIES ARE MORE THAN WELCOME!!! thank you for hearing me out. <P>Flowerboy<BR>(Brandon)

[Mira]

Hey!<P>Reading your post Hornplayer was quite interesting. I was thinking of how you asked what does it represent? I think music is an expression and a feeling of what ever you want it to be. There are things to me that make a character and music is a big part of a person. Classical music is what made the centuries explode with life when it came to music at that time, it defines where music comes from and what it meant. It was always something new to society and yet enjoyed , elated and at times appreciated. I dont know if this comment makes any sense to everyone or not but I am new and trying to get use to this thing. I guess I am just expressing to you how to me without Classical Music,music in a way would have darkened. Besides if it was dead as some say than why do some find it sooo worth listening to.In short it defines society in some ways by means of feeling and it certainly pours out being.It is the century recogninzed or not and it made a category of its own. As a poet once wrote "What is a reflection without a looking glass" I hope I made sense. <P>Mira

[ReedMan]

If you are exposed to negative things, what does it do to you ? That person next to you who complains about the injustices of life<BR>may get you thinking their way. <P>Now what on earth is happening to listeners of music that communicates negativity ? Do some lose respect for themselves or others ? <P>I believe that every individual needs positive things in their life so that they can deal with the negative aspects, somewhatlike balancing a chemical equation and operating at peak efficiency. Developing a love for classical music can help. <P>All we can do is plant 'seeds of influence' on others and it's up to them to connect to what classical music can offer.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by ReedMan (edited 01-30-2001).]

[hornplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flowerboy:<BR><B>I believe they do have an effect on society, and i do also believe that my theory is VICE VERSA - as in society has an effect on music. They both (society and today's music) have an effect on each other.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Exactly my point, and one situation is not any better than the other: "Degrading" music being a reflection of people my age represents that there are real problems with society; and society reflecting degrading music means that this is a vicious cycle that is extremely difficult to put an end to. Which came first: Lowering levels of musical artistic quality or the society that wants it?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flowerboy:<BR><B>You see, my friends, society is ever changing, and artistic expressions and music WILL CHANGE WITH IT.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That doesnt mean, however, that this is something we should ignore. If music continues to follow society, and I believe that it will, then this is a good way to judge what society (at any time) is feeling...and we have been sent some pretty strong signals that this is a path that should not be taken.<P><p>[This message has been edited by hornplayer (edited 01-30-2001).]

[shostakovich]

Hi Brandon. I was dismayed to read recently about the smoking and drinking (and drugs?). It was gutsy of you to admit to. Of course it's easy for me to chastise because I'm not hooked on anything but classical music (and this bulletin board it seems). But look to your lungs and liver (and brain?). You'll want them working when you get older. The closest I come to tobacco now is the cigarette factory where Carmen works. She's dead, you know. Her lungs gave out while she was still young. The knife Jose plunged into them only made it sooner. <P>What about relaxing before bed? Make a tape of soothing music. Check out anything called "adagio". I use Pachelbel's Canon, Albinoni's Adagio, Bach's Air from Suite #3, Ravel's Pavane, and a few other works for that purpose. I also made a tape of less familiar selections that I labeled "Antidote to Insomnia". It works for me, but I'm sedate by nature anyway. Your buddy Mahler is good for physical exercise, but you wouldn't want to sleep with him. Try the adagio route or something like it. Good luck and take care of yourself.<BR>Shos