Music as a religion?

[shostakovich]

There are several major world religions, denominations, sects, and cults. Each has its adherents. The purposes of religion are (I believe): 1) to answer the questions about existence, the meaning of life, and death, 2) give guidelines for behavior, 3) devise a class structure so that those closer to the god(s) pass their wisdom to those more distant. <P>There are many types of music in the world. Each has its adherents. While music does not propose to answer questions about the meaning of life, it does GIVE added meaning to our lives. Some of the guidelines music gives to behavior have been hotly debated in the bulletin board. Correlations have been observed, but a full treatment of sociology as guided by musical following will be difficult, on-going, and changing. The class structure starts with the creators (gods), to the performers (often the same people), to the listeners (adherents).<P>I'll be the first to admit this is greatly over-simplified, but I think there's enough to establish a similarity between the practice of a religion (based on the faith that it is "right"), and choice of listening (based on the faith that it is "right"). In each case, there is no way for one person to prove to another which is the "right" path. I've certainly been frustrated enough trying to "convert". In each case tolerance is very tough to practice. "How can you listen to that crap?" is such a temptation when the "other guy" is SO unenlightened.<P>I think most people in the bulletin board agree that classical music is our primary (if not exclusive) "belief". We should celebrate having found one another on the net by "e-uniting" (I really am taking liberties). Sustain one another by focusing on the classical. The great (and not so great)composers are an endangered species. Religious/musical freedom requires that forays into other musical areas be addressed when desired. I just want to emphasize that the focus of our discussions should be on what unites us, the classics. <P>I and the few friends of mine who care deeply for the classics fear for their preservation. You younger folks (and I'm guessing everyone reading this is younger than I am) on beethoven.com are inheriting the responsibility for this preservation if you are willing to take it on so that your grandchildren can have classical available in their time.<P>The above is a lot to take at once, but I hope you will put it in your minds for further consideration. By coincidence this is being posted on a Sunday. How about that!<BR>Old Shos

[ReedMan]

Yes, we should all do our part to expose others to classical music. <P>On a slight tangent, what is happening to the classical influence in churches ? A recent trend is 'contemporary music' in church services, typically performed by a group consisting of guitars, electric keyboard, drums, and singers before microphones, all amplified. The music and words are simple and repetitious. <P>It's enough to drive one crazy and swear off all religion ! A band of kazoos or bagpipes would produce the same results. Thank the music gods for pipe organs and the classical sound. Where anyone can get any inspiration from the 'contemporary' sound is beyond me.

[Emster]

Oh no, you've started in on contemporary worship -- I couldn't help but put in my two cents. The theory behind this, as I understand, is that this sort of worship will attract young people. I can testify that I don't know too many "young people" (including myself) that prefer this over a traditional service. A traditional service with traditional music is very comforting. The electric guitars, drums, screens, etc. just don't do anything for me. I go to church to worship, not to be entertained.

[Carolina Classics Fan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Emster:<BR><B>I go to church to worship, not to be entertained.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hear, hear, Emster. Isn't that the correct reason for any of us to go to the assembly of the church?<BR>

[Jeff Dutton]

Hi Shos. <P>Well, you have raised some interesting points. I don't really disagree with anything you wrote, but I have to say that I don't share your apprehension about the preservation of classical music. I do believe, however, that we must expose those we can (such as our children) to that which we appreciate. In many cases, this will result in their own appreciation for the same things.<P>It is important to remember, though, that all music was "contemporary" at one time. Some contemporary church music has the ability by melody, music style, words, etc., to affect me as deeply as music written a couple hundred years ago does. And it doesn't even come in 3 movements! <P>On the other hand, not all "classical" music is old music. So what we want to preserve is not just old music, but rather a form of music. And is it even a single form? (I'm starting to feel philosophical now) I don't think so. But it is definitely distinct from much of what is written today.<P>Actually, I have the impression that music is being written today in many more styles than ever existed at one time before. And those styles are not completely distinct from each other. We still have classical composers. We have rock - and right now I'm listening to Led Zeppelin being played by the London Philharmonic. Is it the best of both worlds, or the bastardization of one or both? Ask 10 people and you will probably get 10 different opinions.<P>To go back to one of my first points: I am not saying that classical music will be preserved simply because we can "classicalize" any other music. Quite the contrary! In fact, one of the greatest dangers facing classical music today is the tendency of schools to cut the Fine Arts programs when money gets tight! I believe that it is critical for us to express our opinions publicly when it is necessary to help the local school, etc. set their priorities properly.<P>Well, I've rambled long enough. I'm interested in reading other thoughts on this.<P>Jeff

[Nicole Marie]

Hi Shos...<P>I do agree with many of your points. A main vein being that although there tends to be a lack of interest in classical music with younger generations, (mine being one) the preservation of classical music is needed. If not only for preserving a culture. Music is indicitive of the culture it grows in. To preserve music, art and culture is a resposibility. <P>Music of Bach and Beethoven, for example gives us insight into a new world and culture. If for no reason alone, this should be the reason we bring new generations to classical music.<P>Which brings up Jeff's point, how do we do this? Education. But if schools are ending music programs and making it impossible for departments to even buy sheet music, then we are failing. We are failing future generations, current generations and those that have passed. Support music as part of education in school. No matter if it's jazz, classical, or all the above we owe it to ourselves and others.

[~Leslie]

Today, I went to the main Library in my new city, and was completely dismayed to find absolutely no CDs of ANY genre whatsoever. <P>Classical music SHOULD be available in libraries, it's one of the few ways to reach the general listening public.

[shostakovich]

Hi all. My original focus was an observation that choice of music (and belief in its "rightness") was much like choice of a religion (at least for those who actually make a conscious choice). Then I suggested being sensitive to other people's choices of music, as you would with religion. We should rather focus mostly on our common bond, classical music, in the bulletin board (not exclusively, but mainly). <P>Reedman went one better with comments about music IN religious services. I hadn't thought about that, but I've heard such services. Jeff doesn't share my apprehension about classical music being an endangered species. I hope he's right, but I've seen more and more people less and less aware of the classics. Even many people who enjoy the classics do it more casually with little awareness of how much there is of it and how much has been lost. Beethoven will survive, but many good American composers of the 20th C have no audience now. It's not just paranoia on my part. We really need to be active sharing our likes with one another, and whoever else will listen. <P> Schools and radio stations are the best sources for music education. Both those areas are being eroded for the sake of a buck. Leslie, I hope your libe has near future plans for some CDs. If they don't, put the name of that libe in this column, so we can all complain in letters. I sure will. <BR>Shos

[shostakovich]

Oops! I forgot to give Nicole Marie and the guys at Beethoven.com a pat on the back for what they're doing. Shos

[~Leslie]

Shos, Yes music with many is a religion, altho in many websites the word makes ppl bristle, I like your analogy nonetheless. <P>I live in an area where "If it ain't Country, it ain't music". <P>Being an ex New Yorker and former student at Berklee, you can imagine the severe culture shock moving to the PNW 10 years ago.<P>I became acquainted with the internet and deliberately sought after like -minded individuals of my religious persuasion.<P>As you know, I am of the Bernstein third stream generation, and that makes me even more of a splintered denomination than my classical compadres here in Beethoven.com, but I belong in this group, even if I am slightly aside of the orthodox.<P>I may pretend to be of the Garth Brooks persuasion, (to avoid persecution)but on my own, my ears are tuned to a different doctrine.<P>I want you to know Beethoven's music is alive and well, I heard his joyful ninth tonite during a television commercial, and immediately afterward the Emperor adagio during an ER episode preview. The fold out there in TV land are getting a subliminal sermon whether they choose to follow the light or not.~ <P>Fort Vancouver Regional Library<BR>1007 East Mill Plain Blvd<BR>Vancouver, WA 98661

[John]

Shos et al:<P>It's interesting that we are discussing the promotion and/or preservation of classical music. This discussion thread has prompted me to ask you and the rest of the forum this. At what point did you "fall in love," if you will, with classical music? Was it an acquired taste or were you born with it? In my situation, my parents loved music and played it all the time. They focused on a number of styles, but mainly classical. I tend to believe that my acquired affection for this type of music is a result, at least partially, from growing up in that environment. Comments? If there is some truth to this, that may provide some insight as to how to influence the younger generation.<BR>

[Nicole Marie]

So True John! Parents are the key to teaching children about classical music.<P>When did I fall in love with classical music? When I was five and walked into the Bushnell Theatre in Hartford CT to see the Hartford Symphony Orchestra perform. I saw the Double Bass section and knew what I wanted to do for a life goal. Any one share a like situation?

[serge urtizberea]

C.m. is truly an acquired affection, because there is no way you could ever achieve complete "understanding" of the music unless you wish to do so. Doing so, of course, demands a lot more work than one would think. Many casual listeners say, "Oh, that's nice. I like how relaxing it is", or "I like how fervent it is" but that is only a small facet of the whole appeal of c.m. My best friend says he likes Ludwig's 5th, but nothing else, but he (despite my oft-repeated attempts) won't really give any other Beethoven a try. Guess there's not enough room for Beethoven when you're yelling along with Fred and Wes and DJ Lethal and dealing with the Rage breakup. But I digress...<P>Classical music is unfortunately as suscept to the vagaries of market economy as everything else. C.m. doesn't pay, or doesn't pay enough. The American retail market for classical music purchases is about $500 million a year all told, divided between all the major labels and independents and such. That's a fair bit of coin, but apparently when you have N'Sync sell almost 10 million of their latest album in something like a WEEK (tell me if I'm far off the mark here), c.m. sales look positively sad on the balance sheet, when 5000 albums sold is considered good and 10,000 is gravy.<P>If c.m. falls off the radar screen, we may take thin comfort that someday in the future, civilization will hunger for something tasteful again, and c.m. will experience a renaissance. Until then, we'll do the best we can. I consider myself really lucky I was exposed to c.m. when I was young, and really lucky, too, that I didn't stay satisfied with Mozart, or I would never have found the inspired world of Ludwig and Co. One thing I've learned recently is that you will convince few people to change gears when it comes to their music. Like I once said, music helps define a person (but not necesarily causes their behavior) and changing that music requires a good deal of willingness on the part of the "recruitee". How well would we respond to people who said John Tesh was better to listen to than Rudy Serkin? Poorly, I hope.<P>I don't know where the solution to the problem lies. We could have c.m. taught in schools, but when there isn't enough money in the public school system to buy updated textbooks or decent teachers' salaries, then having Bach on the curriculum no longer seems so urgent. Since, at least in Canada, c.m. is provided on the radio through the good ol' Mother Corp. (ie. the CBC) on Radio 2, and it's cheap enough to subsidize radio despite the CBC's shrinking budget, c.m. still has a good home even if the general populace won't listen to it.<P>C.m. will adapt eventually. It started with crossover, but that pretty much foundered. It continued with more effort placed on "personality" development and more trendy marketing (which I appreciate). It may continue with the "sexification" of c.m. a la pop/r&b/hip-hop. This last may offend some, but as strong adherent to market economics, I applaud the move if it works. Besides, it's not the package that counts but the content, right?<P>Well, that depends who you ask...<P><BR>

[shostakovich]

Hi Leslie. I'm not sure what you mean by Bernstein 3rd stream. My understanding of 3rd stream is that "classical" branch embracing jazz in the 20thC. In terms of Bernstein, I can think of WSS, OTT (musicals), The Age of Anxiety, Prelude, Fugue and Riffs. Anything else? If it goes beyond Bernstein, who else are you thinking of?<BR>I did write "Research Librarian" at your libe. I hope they have at least one. I suggested getting CDs to loan and tuning in to Beethoven.com for the bulletin board and ideas.<P>John, you might be interested in the topic titled "Event leading to interest in the classics" (close enough), which is alive and well.<P>Serge, I like your determination for the "right stuff" (packaged in the right way, and played by the right guys). I wonder what your friend likes about Beethoven's 5th that doesn't transfer. Have you tried the Egmont Ov, or slipping something by him without telling him it's classical, in case the word "classical" is the brick wall? <P>The Feb 5 Newsweek ended with an article by George Will on wrong-minded funding by the NEA for museums. His interesting, somewhat radical suggestion was to fund nothing contemporary. Have nothing enter an art museum that has not "passed the test of time". I volunteer at an art museum, and like his suggestion. Some years ago an "art work" was placed across from our museum (funded by NEA presumably) that consisted of 36 boulders placed on a lawn in rows of 1 to 8 (like bowling pins in 8 rows). For being on hand to say "put that one there" 36 times, the "artist" got something like $10,000. GIVE ME A BREAK!!!! While it was not placed IN the museum, you get the idea of the ridiculous level of arts funding. <P>I'd like to see Will's idea adopted, but you can bet someone will confuse the issue with a "freedom of speech" argument. So my final thought in this note is that a similar suggestion would go a long way to improving PUBLIC libraries, PUBLIC scools, and PUBLIC radio as well as PUBLIC art museums.<P>I apologize for zoning in on my own hang-up: considering the states of both music and art in this country DEPLORABLE!<BR>Shos

[ReedMan]

A good way to turn someone on to classical music may be for them to receive formal instruction on an instrument. My son started piano lessons 6 months ago and it is interesting to observe his choice of radio stations when I drive him to swim team practice. Before lessons, he used to tune into the pop stations, now he can't stand to listen to them for more han a few seconds. A jazz station seems to interest him. The local classical station plays stuff that is usually not very interesting during our commute time. Wish I could receive beethoven radio in my car...<P>Anyway, it seems an understanding of how to play an instrument combined with some basic music theory has an influence on a person's music tastes - at least in one case. I play classical music on the sound system as background music at home in the evenings and during dinner. At the very least, exposure to the orchestra sound is educational. My 5 year old daughter is able to identify many instruments now. I still play my clarinet and occasionally play duets with my son on piano and that is another good learning experience (for both of us). <P>Witnessing the quantity (much larger than in my school daze) of students in Colorado Springs schools who play instruments, I think we have a younger generation that is getting the proper exposure. <P>The NAXOS record label is making it very affordable to experience classical music.<BR>The Columbia House and BMG music clubs still carry a decent selection of classical music.<BR>I do see local stores (Media Play, Best Buy, electronics stores) allocating less space for classical music now than they did 5 years ago and that is alarming but probably market driven.<P>The idea that classical music can be like a religion is valid in some respects. Classical music communicates emotions, much of it is written based on an idea of importance, it is used in religions as an alternative to the spoken word, ...<P>Enuf from me...

[Carolina Classics Fan]

I can't remember the first "classical" music I heard, but it was probably something played by the Glenn Miller Orchestra. When you are just a mere child, you listen to whatever Mama wants to hear.<P>The first memory is of Brahms First Symphony. I was in junior high school and in the band and we played it. By the time I was a sophomore, I had played Moussorgsky/Ravel Pictures, Tchaikovsy Marche Slave, Barcarolle from Tales of Hoffman, none of them done as well as by the pros, but done with great enthusiasm. I had a bunch of band directors who were more into exposing kids to classics than into perfect performances. Before I graduated, I had played the music of Brahms, Bach, Dvorak, Mozart, Wagner, Persichetti, Hansen, MacDowell, Verdi, and a few more, I am sure. Had eight full credits in music, having sung, played, and studied theory. My last HS Band director insisted that rock music was popular because it was simple, and appealed to the masses because it did not require much thought. To prove his point, he got out his clarinet, gave the band three chords to play on his cues, and improvised a couple of pieces of music that could have made the charts. (the major I IV and V chords sufficed for just about anything) The first recordings (LPs) that I bought were Grand Canyon, 1812, and Wellington's Victory. At least those were the "A" sides.<P>I had the privilege of seeing Karajan conduct the Berlin Philharmonic in Philharmonie Halle and Solti conduct the Chicago Symphony in Munich Germany. I had never heard of Pachelbel until Karajan did it in Berlin. Solti had R Serkin as a soloist in Munich. <P>Ah, well, memories are wonderful.

[shostakovich]

These success stories warm the heart. It seems performance works wonders. My 3 sons in turn took one year of violin in elementary school. #1 son attends concerts regularly. #2 son occasionally. #3 son went to pop. He keeps me posted on that scene occasionally. He loves to sing karaoke, and is even thinking of singing lessons. They were all (over)exposed to orchestral music at home. Same stimuli, different outcomes. But music IS important to them. <P>My own first record purchases were 1812 & Marche Slave on one, and 5 overtures on another: Fledermaus, Orpheus in Hades, Hebrides, Russlan & Ludmilla, and Barber of Seville. They had lots of company in a hurry.<BR>Shos

[~Leslie]

Shos, I liked your rant, and it's a familiar one. Isn't it interesting how art and music progressed side by side throughout history? You got me thinking of Andy Warhol's Campbells soup can art and his foray with the band the Velvet Underground. If you heard them, you'd probably clamp your hands over your ears in horror. <g> <P>Bernstein is a tough act to follow, Shos. But it is his example I live up to. He embraced "The Infinite Variety of Music", and he could spot the real deal from a phony miles away. <P>Third Stream is actually a worn out term now. In fact most artists I admire, just can't be pigeon-holed into one genre, because they are always experimenting with different mixtures----the orchestral sound, the chamber sound, jazz, folk, world, new age, (no, not Yanni, yuk!)rock, etc. They're trying to push music forward. Every decently trained working musician I know has been exposed to classical,........and respects it, and can speak knowledgebly about it. <P>It's a group of musicians, listeners and fans I'm proud to be a part of.<P>It is for this reason I was bristling over the Ken Burns Jazz series. It was very educational, yes, but the message was that jazz is a dead dinosaur we now visit in a museum. It's not Shos, it just morphed, it fused with everything else. It's that ol time religion thing again, isn't it?<P>Thanks for writing the library. Tis better to light a candle than curse the darkness. ~ <p>[This message has been edited by ~Leslie (edited 02-09-2001).]

[MARTINCAM]

I think religion and classcal music go hand in hand. They are both beliefs and the more you believe in them the more attractive they become and the more satisfaction they give you.

[Joe Lykins]

Saith Martincam: "I think religion and classcal music go hand in hand. They are both beliefs and the more you believe in them the more attractive they become and the more satisfaction they give you."<BR> <BR>Yes, and if you don't like classical music may you spend eternity in Hell picking fleas from Kurt Cobain's beard! Har!<BR>