A composer's "sound"

[serge urtizberea]

I wonder how strongly others think that almost, if not every, composer has a distinct sound. My question seems a little silly since how could they NOT unless they were plagiarizing... I know. But I mean in more specific details: the composer's standard rhythms, orchestrations, keys, chords, patterns. In other words, the whole sound of a composer's output.<P>I can unmistakably pick out Beethoven's sound before I even recognize the name of the work. It's uncanny, but I love it and hope it never goes away. Ludwig uses his strings in a unique layering and timbre (using the right word here?). His orchestration is very unique... as is Brahms, Chopin, Berlioz... I find I can often pick out the Berlioz "sound" and usually with Brahms. Mendelssohn has a nice, cultured, pastoral sound, I tend to think. Of course, Mozart and Haydn's is unmistakeable, although telling the two apart confuses me constantly. Bach's sound tends to mean standardbearing baroque to me even though there are probably a dozen baroque sounds. Liszt, Grieg, and Tchaikovsky I associate by the nationalistic flavor thry mix in thier music.<P>Does anyone think of composers in this regard? Am I generally accurate with my assessment?

[barfle]

As I've noted before, I'm a self-taught appreciator of music, so I'm not so sure I could tell a composer simply by listening to the music. That being said, I believe Bach is almost instantly recognizable, although I've guessed wrong as many times as I've guessed right. <P>Prokoffiev is pretty distinctive, but I should probably listen to more of his work than just "Cinderella" before I start bragging about my golden ears. <P>As I'm writing this, I notice that 20th century composers (Ellington, Stravinsky, Bernstein) seem to be more distinctive than the earlier Europeans, at least to me. I don't believe anyone will confuse Debussy with Mozart, either!

[Bob the Composer]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by serge urtizberea:<BR><B>I wonder how strongly others think that almost, if not every, composer has a distinct sound. My question seems a little silly since how could they NOT unless they were plagiarizing... I know. But I mean in more specific details: the composer's standard rhythms, orchestrations, keys, chords, patterns. In other words, the whole sound of a composer's output.<P>I can unmistakably pick out Beethoven's sound before I even recognize the name of the work. It's uncanny, but I love it and hope it never goes away. Ludwig uses his strings in a unique layering and timbre (using the right word here?). His orchestration is very unique... as is Brahms, Chopin, Berlioz... I find I can often pick out the Berlioz "sound" and usually with Brahms. Mendelssohn has a nice, cultured, pastoral sound, I tend to think. Of course, Mozart and Haydn's is unmistakeable, although telling the two apart confuses me constantly. Bach's sound tends to mean standardbearing baroque to me even though there are probably a dozen baroque sounds. Liszt, Grieg, and Tchaikovsky I associate by the nationalistic flavor thry mix in thier music.<P>Does anyone think of composers in this regard? Am I generally accurate with my assessment?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Serge,<P>Very interesting. I sometimes percieve colors when listening to music. Dvorak's music has a tendency to evoke in me shades of brown. This, though, is more of a work by work thing than and person by person thing. Beethoven's 5th, for example. The first movement evokes the colors Red, Brown, and light Blue to me. The second movment evokes light yellows, blues, and greens, the third darker colors, and the 4th is an explosion of bright orange, yellow, and Red. The 3rd Symphony is mostly bright, light blue, and bright, light orange. Perhaps this is because I'm also an artist.<P>Regarding Mozart and Haydn, there is a fairly distinct difference to them. Haydn is merely happy, whereas Mozart is either extremely, boyantly bouncy or very, very dark and moody. Haydn's music has a tendency to evoke light yellows and browns, whereas Mozart is literally all over the place.<P>Bob

[Michael]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bob the Composer:<BR><B> Serge,<P>Very interesting. I sometimes percieve colors when listening to music. Dvorak's music has a tendency to evoke in me shades of brown. This, though, is more of a work by work thing than and person by person thing. Beethoven's 5th, for example. The first movement evokes the colors Red, Brown, and light Blue to me. The second movment evokes light yellows, blues, and greens, the third darker colors, and the 4th is an explosion of bright orange, yellow, and Red. The 3rd Symphony is mostly bright, light blue, and bright, light orange. Perhaps this is because I'm also an artist.<P>Bob</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There is a very long article in the Concise Oxford Companion to Music about the relationship of colours to music. It says: "Many musicians possess key-colour associations. Beethoven is said on one occasion to have spoken of B minor as 'black'".<BR>Other listeners associate colours with different timbres, and, as you describe, Bob, different compositions have their own colours. All this, apparently, is called "synaesthesia" - "the production from a sense-impression of one kind of an associated mental image of a sense-impression of another kind". (Don't worry - it's not fatal).<BR>In an old book (Beethoven - The Search for Reality by W J Turner) I came across another interesting few paragraphs. The author asked a "very intelligent and musical woman" to tell him what colours the great composers suggested to her. He had written down his own list before asking her and he was astonished to find that she ascribed to them almost exactly the same colours as he had done. Here is part of the list:<P>Chopin - Blue<BR>Brahms - Dark red<BR>Mozart - Shining silver<BR>Wagner - Purple and gold<BR>Tchaikovsky - Magenta<BR>Beethoven - No colour<BR>Bach - Grey daylight<BR>Scriabin - Streaks of scarlet<P>The author found it fascinating that neither Bach nor Mozart suggested a definite colour and Beethoven none at all.<P>M.<BR>

[Peter]

I must be colourblind (colourdeaf?) - none of this means a thing to me.<p>[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 03-03-2001).]

[Michael]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peter:<BR><B>I must be colourblind (colourdeaf?) - none of this means a thing to me.<P>[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 03-03-2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Likewise, Peter. Although the days of the week have colours for me, i.e. Monday - white, Tuesday - blue ..... but music - nope.<P>M.<P>

[audiogirl]

Hmmmmmmmm.

[audiogirl]

Okay, so I'm a huge dork. I'm at a different computer and was trying to remember my password. My two cents is that I can spot a Gershwin at twenty paces.

[~Leslie]

What an interesting topic! I'm sure I am unable to touch the surface here, but I believe this has alot to do with how ppl learn. <P>Some ppl seem to learn in a visual mode, others learn in an audio mode. <P>I'll never forget a history teacher chiding us as kids saying we could not remember <BR>certain important historical events that occurred, but we could remember every Beatle lyric by heart!<P>That got me to thinking that if I wanted to really l-e-a-r-n something,instead of staring at a page in a book, if I made an audio tape of information and played it over and over while going about my normal daily routine, I could recite the facts by memory easily. <P>Keyboard teachers know that some children learn in the visual mode, so the keys are in different colors.<P>The other area of interest to me, is in reference to tonal "colors" , that of a striking parallel between visual and audio art throughout mankind's history. ~<P><BR>

[treebeau]

Audiogirl:<P>Which Gershwin do you mean ? George, or his lovely wife Ira ?<P>Regards,<BR>Tim B.<BR>

[audiogirl]

Mr. treebeau,<P>George, of course. I hope that Ira comment was a joke!<P>audiogirl

[Nicole Marie]

About this color and music association. I use it. When I hear a note a color pops into my minds eye. This way I have been able to identify notes. I've learned perfect pitch. It's possible with everyone to learn this.

[audiogirl]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ~Leslie:<BR><B>What an interesting topic! I'm sure I am unable to touch the surface here, but I believe this has alot to do with how ppl learn. <P>Some ppl seem to learn in a visual mode, others learn in an audio mode. <P>I'll never forget a history teacher chiding us as kids saying we could not remember <BR>certain important historical events that occurred, but we could remember every Beatle lyric by heart!<P>That got me to thinking that if I wanted to really l-e-a-r-n something,instead of staring at a page in a book, if I made an audio tape of information and played it over and over while going about my normal daily routine, I could recite the facts by memory easily. <P>Keyboard teachers know that some children learn in the visual mode, so the keys are in different colors.<P>The other area of interest to me, is in reference to tonal "colors" , that of a striking parallel between visual and audio art throughout mankind's history. ~<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hello again.......<P>I think the color is a subjective thing. A given color may evoke a different mood in everybody.<P>Leslie, the comment about colored keys makes me think of the do-re-mi system and use of shape notes.<P>You touched on one of my favorite subjects. Most of us do learn better through one mode than the other. The reason you could probably remember a Beatles song better than historical events, though, has more to do (I think) with the way it is presented. Didn't we all learn our ABC's to the 'Twinkle' melody? Things that have rhythm, melody, and anticipated rhyme are much easier to commit to memory. It is much easier to memorize a poem that rhymes than one that doesn't. <P>This leads me to my other favorite subject---right brain vs. left brain. Most of us are right-brain dominant for memory. Most of our emotional and intuitive reactions also come from the right brain. The things that you remember from your distant past are also likely the things that made an emotional impact.<P>The Beatles stuff was probably more relevant to your life, too. That could be an emotion-memory link.<P>There's another learning style known as tactile-kinesthetic which I have seen work well if the others don't kick in. <P>The brain hemisphere knowledge is something in which I have formal education. The learning style is mostly something I have learned from other teachers. I'll shut up.<P>By the way, I'm VERY auditory.<P>audiogirl

[hornplayer]

Im getting much better, but Ive not heard enough music to be able to have very good accuracy. However, there are many times in which I can discern who the composer is of a piece Ive not hear before, depending on who they are. Also, Id say I can pick the era with nearly 100% accuracy, and that I can pick out the composer if you gave me a list of a few. Hey, Im only a Junior in HS, Im working on it!

[Peter]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nicole Marie:<BR><B>About this color and music association. I use it. When I hear a note a color pops into my minds eye. This way I have been able to identify notes. I've learned perfect pitch. It's possible with everyone to learn this.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Nicole Marie, it is very unusual to find someone who can recognise each of the 12 notes over seven octaves, at random. Did you mean from a single note "starting point", or without such a "clue"? If the latter, then you are clever, indeed! Either way, I don`t agree that everyone could learn perfect pitch - there has to be some semblance of in-built musical awareness in the first place.

[treebeau]

Yes, the Ira comment was a joke. Long time readers of my posts know that I most always have my tongue firmly planted in my cheek. I just don't know the "emoticon" to represent this.<P>Regards,<BR>Tim B.<BR>

[audiogirl]

Here's question for someone who knows. Exactly what frequency is middle C on a piano? Measured in Hz, right?

[Peter]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by audiogirl:<BR><B>Here's question for someone who knows. Exactly what frequency is middle C on a piano? Measured in Hz, right? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi audiogirl,<P>Middle C = 523.25KHz. This is halved for each successive lower octave, and doubled for each successive higher octave.

[Michael]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peter:<BR>I don`t agree that everyone could learn perfect pitch - there has to be some semblance of in-built musical awareness in the first place. [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I was astounded to find, in an article I read some years ago, that perfect pitch was not absolutely necessary in a great composer. I forget the details, but the article included a list of composers who did or did not possess this "gift". I think Wagner was one of those who didn't, although I wonder how the writer arrived at his conclusions.<BR>I put "gift" in quotes because, I believe, absolute pitch can have its drawbacks. The composer, MacDowell once played a sonata with great difficulty because the piano was at a pitch to which he was not accustomed. He experienced the distress of playing the piece in one key and hearing it in another which, he said, "nearly knocked me out."<BR>I suppose we can assume that Bach, Mozart and Beethoven had absolute pitch. Excuse me if my terminology is wonky here because I am not a musician, but I have often wondered why the discrepancy in pitch between the piano and other non equal-temperament instruments didn't seem to bother these gentlemen, especially Bach who rose to the challenge. <BR>But isn't the piano technically out of tune most of the time? I know this bothered the hell out of Tchaikovsky (though it didn't prevent him writing piano concertos, etc.)<BR>Towards the end of his life, Beethoven said: "After all, the piano is an unsatisfactory instrument." Was he referring to this equal temperament compromise? He continued in the purer medium of the string quartet. In his mind, could he "hear" the piano as being perfectly in tune? <BR>Am I making any sense?<P>M.<P><BR>

[~Leslie]

Micheal, Did he really say that?? I am flabberghasted!! Does this imply what I think it does?? String popping, intonation, tonal quality, steel vs wood construction, <BR>you know the drill.............<P>Chopin, Liszt, Beethoven, all pushing the envelope in search of............I'm not going to say this outloud. Too circular!!