Future echoes of the Classical tradition

[~Leslie]

I would like to share something with you ppl.<BR>I did not write it, but I concurr with it.~ <P>With any of the major labels these days the search is on for "blockbusters". They want records which will go multi-platinum and the effort is focused on making music that can reap obscene amounts of profit. <P>Who let these guys into the music business anyway? The answer: They weren't let in, they bought the doorman, the door, the office, and everyone in it. Then they made market niches and stuck artists into them. Anyone who didn't fit was peremptorily dismissed and they scurried off to college radio land with tails between their legs. <P>Now the big artists trip over themselves to start their own labels and use the record companies for distribution purposes only. Do these artists, now that they have the chance, fight for artist's rights, nurture and develop talent, promote art for art's sake, and drive the genre(s) forward? <P>If only that was the case, but somewhere along the way they decided that money matters more than the music, and that the audience represents disposable income. Now they put the audience into niches too (demographics) and design products for the niches.<P> Our rich tradition of music as art has been debased to become an item valued in terms of dollars and cents instead of power of expression and depth of meaning. <P>

[Brahmsian]

HOrnplayer,<BR>I also am first horn in our school, and have a new Holton-Farkas horn this year and agree with your description. The Mozart concertos are amazing to play on it.

[hornplayer]

If anyone uses Napster frequently my name is bowlerpro123...if you see me give me a buzz.<P>Id also like to point out that I am playing a horn solo for NYSSMA, and the solo would be Beethoven's Sonata for Horn and Piano Op. 17. My solo happens to be a level five...Im not a very excellent horn player...being first in a school that has 600 kids in some tiny town on the south shore of long island is not an amazing title...<p>[This message has been edited by hornplayer (edited 03-02-2001).]

[Bob the Composer]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ~Leslie:<BR><B>You guys, you think this is a fight??<BR> Allow me to digress further:<P>This is small potatoes compared to the slinging/volleying /multi threaded soccer tournament over in freeserve over whether B heralded in the Romantic movement. (at least I think that's what it reads!)<P>Out pops my favorite Louie line, which carries the spirit of the future echoes of the Classical tradition: <P>(of the late String Quartets)<P>"Oh, those are not for you, but for a later age!"<P>YOWSER!!!! No presumption, just the straight, honest to goodness scoop! <P>Ya gotta love this guy!.]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, I think I heard this comment reffered to the Razumovsky Quartets.<P>Bob

[Bob the Composer]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by serge urtizberea:<BR><B>Right now, I'm watching the new Simpsons episode. A music exec is recruiting Bart, Milhouse, Ralph, and Nelson for a new boy band. Never mind the fact that none of them has any singing talent! Never mind that none of them can compose or hold a pitch! They're being recruited because of their "look". The best part so far is when the four are trying out new lyrics and they sound like crap. Luckily, the exec has a synthesizer and he uses it to completely alter and "sexify" the boys' voices. Hy-larious! N'Sync guest stars as themselves today on the show, but they must not be aware of the irony, or don't care. There is nothing nearly as satirical as this show on television right now, even after 12 seasons. God help us when this show goes off the air!<P>The episode was not trying to fully draw light to the fact it takes nothing more than sex appeal to become a popstar these days. While there's nothing entirely wrong with that... clearly, the idea of having talent is certainly falling into less and less importance. If you want to effect a radical change in the content of the mass public's Discmans and car stereos, you'll need to do it the "proper" way: you need to acculturalize c.m. the way p.m. is done. There's not much point trying to convert the older stratum of the population; they will not easily be swayed. Advertisers know this, and they also know the future consumers of the world are the little kiddies who pressure their parents to eat at Mickey D's and buy Pokemon (or Digimon, now?) and the 18-34 demographic that is obsessed with conformity. That is where the big bucks are spent, and where the greatest possiblity to affect mass culture lies. So... we just need to convince the big ad spenders that c.m. is profitable. Is that possible? Well, if they can popularize milk by having supermodels and athletes crow about its benefits, then there is hope. Always have hope. <P>[This message has been edited by serge urtizberea (edited 02-25-2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, well, there is only one solution to this problem, Serge:<P>Yvan Eht Nioj. <P> <P>Actually, I think Nelson plays the guitar. He sang for Lisa once. I think he has the potential to be a great tenor, if he'll just wake up and smell the roses. But I think he'll just say "Smell you later."<P>Bob<p>[This message has been edited by Bob the Composer (edited 03-03-2001).]

[shostakovich]

Hi Leslie. Your quote about how packaging and selling are more important than the product was very expressive. It must have been by somebody in the business. It described well something we feel, but have little detailed knowledge of. WHO SEDIT?<BR>Shos

[hornplayer]

Since the future of Napster is still in question (I dont know how many people are willing to pay $10 a month for it), Id like to take this opportunity to say that my AOL screen name is SirThomasMore2. If anyone wants to chat thats great...and if we all get it and are on at the same time we can all discuss things in one giant fourm...it would be easier to talk about saving classical music if we could do it live.

[Peter]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hornplayer:<BR><B>If anyone uses Napster frequently my name is bowlerpro123...if you see me give me a buzz.<BR>Id also like to point out that I am playing a horn solo for NYSSMA, and the solo would be Beethoven's Sonata for Horn and Piano Op. 17. My solo happens to be a level five...Im not a very excellent horn player...being first in a school that has 600 kids in some tiny town on the south shore of long island is not an amazing title...<BR>[This message has been edited by hornplayer (edited 03-02-2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dunno, Hornplayer. Being first out of 600, AND getting to play Beethoven can`t be too bad!<P>On your other point, I`m not at all sure what chatting for real would achieve. I know you mean well, but some of us are separated by continents, and practically, it would be difficult to all get together at designated times. There`s no quick fix to the classical "problem" anyway, so isn`t it best to use this forum (at least for now), or communicate via email, to exchange views? It`s what the forum is for, anyway. I mean, how many of us are posting here at the same time, at any given time? The forum gives us flexibility. I like that.<P>Peter

[hornplayer]

No no, I agree, definately, the fourm is probably the best idea, but there are a lot of people that would be able to talk...I think there are a few people on the east coast, for instance...and I sure to wish there was a quick fix! Thats not what I meant though...it would just be nice if it we could discuss our views a lot quicker.

[~Leslie]

Shos, The writer of that rant goes by the name of Paul Jungfriend on the net, and he is a e pal of mine. He is a professional jazz guitarist in the Bay area, and boy, can he ever write about the muse. ~

[serge urtizberea]

Yvan eht nioj, Bob?! Why do I suddenly feel like joining the armed forces-- the American armed forces, I mean. Ours, to put it kindly, probably couldn't defend us from a Quebec separatist attack, at least in its current state.

[hornplayer]

I was recently privledged to visit the Met in the city the other day, and I noticed something that I wanted to comment on. I think that the "decline" of music has also gone hand in hand with the decline of art. When we walked through the areas of European art, the art was as it should be: portrats, landscapes, etc. Obviously this isnt all of european art, but its a lot of it. Then you move to the 20th Century section, and you no longer find art; you find some orange canvas with red stripes. Or perhaps some drawings that my seven year old sister could create. Obviously this isnt all of modern art, but its a lot of it. Its a shame really. People like that kind of art though, and it gets recognition, just like how people like the music of today, and it is popular.<P>Ive said this to people and people have said this to me: I was born a few centuries too late. Those who know me well know that I favor the more traditional way of doing things...I dont email girls to ask them out, I talk to them...I send flowers, not e-greeting cards. I enjoy the stories of proper parties and dances, with men and women waltzing, not guys getting girls drunk so they can take advantage of them. Technology and all is great, but the state of the world is not as it should be. Oh well.

[provistbrahms]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John:<BR><B> Hornplayer:<P>I agree that it is okay to dislike things! I hate certain types of music, foods, behaviors, etc. However, tolerance and accommodation is a necessity. People are different and getting to know why they are different is important. I can still not like a certain piece or style of music, but I really can't be true to myself without trying it or attempting to understand why it is the way it is.<P>Individual freedom is wonderful. Respect for all is ncessary.<P>John<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree with you. Respect is neccessarry but they can keep their music for all I care.. but the line must be drawn between what is good and what is bad. For I see to much profanity in music now adays and it drives me insane. I also don't agree with changing the composers intened intruments that is not the way it is suppossed so sound. Take Beethoven's ninth for example. It was arranged in a really crude manner of a song called Joyful Joyful. On sister actII back in the habit sure it is a good song to sing but still it is wrong in my opinion becuase it takes themes that where origniated to be complex and extrodinary to themes that are simpilar and well down right weird in my opinion.

[provistbrahms]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John:<BR><B> Hornplayer:<P>I agree that it is okay to dislike things! I hate certain types of music, foods, behaviors, etc. However, tolerance and accommodation is a necessity. People are different and getting to know why they are different is important. I can still not like a certain piece or style of music, but I really can't be true to myself without trying it or attempting to understand why it is the way it is.<P>Individual freedom is wonderful. Respect for all is ncessary.<P>John<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree with you. Respect is neccessarry but they can keep their music for all I care.. but the line must be drawn between what is good and what is bad. For I see to much profanity in music now adays and it drives me insane. I also don't agree with changing the composers intened intruments that is not the way it is suppossed so sound. Take Beethoven's ninth for example. It was arranged in a really crude manner of a song called Joyful Joyful. On sister actII back in the habit sure it is a good song to sing but still it is wrong in my opinion becuase it takes themes that where origniated to be complex and extrodinary to themes that are simpilar and well down right weird in my opinion.

[~Leslie]

I truly understand how many shun the aberrations of watered down, dumbed down classics.<P>But, in my case, I would have to admit outloud just this once,<P> that if I could, I would invoke the very spirit of Beethoven himself, and sit him down at a Yamaha Discklavier Pro 2000, and let him have at it.~

[John]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by provistbrahms:<BR><B>... but the line must be drawn between what is good and what is bad. For I see to much profanity in music now adays and it drives me insane. I also don't agree with changing the composers intened intruments that is not the way it is suppossed so sound....</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Provistbrahms:<P>You point out two things - the degradation of music and the use of different instruments. I would like to address both.<P>I will agree that in some respects, the quality of music has degraded. I am also sickened by the increased use of violence and profanity in music. However, what is the net cause? To what do we blame? Where is the solution? Obviously, someone must like this stuff or it wouldn't sell. Continual promotion indicates to me that there is more money to be made - the thirst for such has not been quenched. However, I don't feel I am prepared to judge those who produce it or buy it - for why am I right and others are wrong? My standards are my standards, but I should not assume they are everyone's standards. So, should acceptance and tolerance be the norm? Well, that's a tough one. The answer rests with your values, beliefs, and the laws to which you are governed. I may not like certain music, but as long as laws are not broken, or people/property are not hurt, I should at least be respectful.<P>Ah, what the composer intended? That is an interesting question. I really think we need to consider the time/place of such compositions. What styles were prevalent? What techniques were used? What instruments were available? Using your same example, Beethoven, I wonder what he would compose today given the many methods, techniques, styles, and instruments available. Haven't you experienced, or know someone who has, where they created something and years later, knowing what is currently available, stated that "if only I know now what I didn't know then?" Interestingly, I actually prefer Beethoven's music on modern instruments -- they are more refined and certainly produce bolder music. Who's to say Beethoven wouldn't have done things differently today than back in his time? I don't really know, but do you?<P>John<P><p>[This message has been edited by John (edited 03-07-2001).]

[treebeau]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ~Leslie:<BR><B><BR>...<BR> that if I could, I would invoke the very spirit of Beethoven himself, and sit him down at a Yamaha Discklavier Pro 2000, and let him have at it.~ </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Leslie,<BR> Wonder no more. If you've never seen the movie "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure" then go out and rent it today. They bring old Ludwig to the present day, he gets loose in a suburban shopping mall, and experiments with modern day keyboards at a music store.<P>Most excellent, dude !<P>Regards,<BR>Tim B.<BR>

[hornplayer]

Although I may not agree with it, it is very understandable that classical composers, if brought back to life, would want to employ modern instruments. However, that doesnt mean that the composers would want to have pieces that theyve already written, transposed. Beethoven wrote his ninth symphony with the instruments he had at his disposal in mind. Taking new instruments and playing a piece written for an orchestra is not the same as writing new pieces for the new instruments. I still dont think it is wise to change pieces to accomodate modern technology.

[audiogirl]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hornplayer:<BR><B>Although I may not agree with it, it is very understandable that classical composers, if brought back to life, would want to employ modern instruments. However, that doesnt mean that the composers would want to have pieces that theyve already written, transposed. Beethoven wrote his ninth symphony with the instruments he had at his disposal in mind. Taking new instruments and playing a piece written for an orchestra is not the same as writing new pieces for the new instruments. I still dont think it is wise to change pieces to accomodate modern technology.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hornplayer--<BR>Do you mean transposed to other instruments or different keys? I once played "Moonlight Sonata" written for the guitar. Of course, it was in a different key. I think you can present your opinion on whether a piece of music is better or worse for being transposed. I don't think we can say with any accuracy what a composer would have thought. We didn't know these guys personally. If artists years ago were like artists today,(musicians, painters, poets) they likely might have had a flair for the dramatic and tended toward extreme emotions. (A quick trip to this bulletin board will reveal that.) I'm the same way. I've known quite a few artists who had pretty narcissistic tendencies. Who's to say that some composers would not be flattered that someone took the trouble to play their music on a different instrument?<BR>I'm no Beethoven historian, but purporting to know a composer's opinion, when it isn't directly stated, is pure speculation. Or isn't this what you guys are talking about?<P>Audiogirl<P>

[JasonK]

I second that......<P>Audio Girl, your comment was as refreshing as CALM and SERENE waters