Future echoes of the Classical tradition

[hornplayer]

I meant different instruments.

[Nicole Marie]

Hey Hornplayer here's an idea. Composers did often write for specific instruments, not always. But to as you said ealier "I still dont think it is wise to change pieces to accomodate modern technology." But we have even in the orchestra without realizing it, we play pieces that sound totaly different than composer wrote them. Because of this fact:<P>The orchestra and ensembles around the time of Mozart and Beethoven tuned to a different pitch then ensembles do today.<P>Today orchestras tune to a pitch frequency of 440. We know the pitch has increased over the years but the debate lies in how much of an increase? Most people agree that the pitch has risen about 20 degrees. That is a lot! So if Mozart was to jump into a time machine and travel into today...it's very possible he would not recognize his own piece!<P>Part of the reason the pitch has risen is due to instruments changing. The body, style and build of instruments is different. For example since I am a double bass player! Double Basses built in the 1700's and 1800's are smaller and hand crafted. Double basses of today seem to be larger and built of different wood, mostly machine made. This aids to the change of pitch.<P>Also composers would give performers a "draft" of what to play. Key, melody form and then leave much to the performers talents. The basso continuo knew to play a style based on their role in the ensemble, the soloist knew to play a style due to their role. Given this, composers would not fully write out music but give a draft. <P>Now ensembles are given full scores. This adds to differences. So modern technology has changed because of the orchestra.<P><BR>We accomodate modern technology every time we pick up a violin.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Nicole Marie (edited 03-07-2001).]

[hornplayer]

Thats interesting...thank you, I hadnt know that. But still, changing pitch and altering the construction of the instruments is still less extreme than going from violin to electric guitar.

[JasonK]

True it is change, but not as much as you may think. The 20 degree differnce makes all the difference in the world to my ear....as well as the individual preformer....and I would not want to strip them of interpretation.

[Peter]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nicole Marie:<BR><B>Today orchestras tune to a pitch frequency of 440. We know the pitch has increased over the years but the debate lies in how much of an increase? Most people agree that the pitch has risen about 20 degrees. That is a lot! So if Mozart was to jump into a time machine and travel into today...it's very possible he would not recognize his own piece!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Nicole Marie, it really is an exaggeration to say that a composer might not recognise his own music if he heard it played at a different pitch to the one intended; after all, 20 degrees represents less than one semitone! Mozart had an excellent musical ear, & for sure, he would hear modern interpretations of his music as being "sharp", but he would certainly know it as his own music.<p>[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 03-07-2001).]

[Peter]

Audiogirl, I think it`s reasonable to alter the key of a piece if the piece is for performance on an instrument where no nuances will be lost from the original key For example, the Moonlight Sonata adagio, transposed for guitar from the original C sharp minor, sounds better in (eg) E minor with more open, sustained (sostenuto) strings involved; however, played in a different minor key on its intended instrument (piano) would result in a completely different atmosphere being conveyed.

[Nicole Marie]

<BR>Nicole Marie, it really is an exaggeration to say that a composer might not recognise his own music if he heard it played at a different pitch to the one intended; after all, 20 degrees represents less than one semitone! Mozart had an excellent musical ear, & for sure, he would hear modern interpretations of his music as being "sharp", but he would certainly know it as his own music.<P>[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 03-07-2001).][/B][/QUOTE]<P><BR>True Peter. But its an assumption on your part also. <P>

[Peter]

Well, I think it`s a pretty safe assumption!! I`d even call it common sense. I`d be pleased to develop the argument with you, Nicole?

[John]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peter:<BR><B>....I`d be pleased to develop the argument with you, Nicole? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Peter, Nicole:<P>Looks like a battle is brewing here... Another revolution? God save the Queen? Rule Britannia? Come on, Nicole - give the ol' Brit the one-two! <P>John<P>P.S. I'm ready for a rumble!<BR>

[JasonK]

<BR>interesting topic, I do not know if the difference is that negligible....over time, interpretations become alive and sometimes overtake the intentions of the author.<p>[This message has been edited by JasonK (edited 03-08-2001).]

[audiogirl]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peter:<BR><B>Audiogirl, I think it`s reasonable to alter the key of a piece if the piece is for performance on an instrument where no nuances will be lost from the original key For example, the Moonlight Sonata adagio, transposed for guitar from the original C sharp minor, sounds better in (eg) E minor with more open, sustained (sostenuto) strings involved; however, played in a different minor key on its intended instrument (piano) would result in a completely different atmosphere being conveyed.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi, Peter.<P>To argue with you on this one, I would have to dust off my meager knowledge of key signature, and I seem to have lost my "Pledge." I'll take your word for it.<P> I think you CAN stray too far from the composer's intentions. For instance, if "Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy" were played on a tuba, it would have to be called "Waddle of the Sugar Plum Elephant."<BR>

[EJA_2]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by audiogirl:<BR><B> <BR> I think you CAN stray too far from the composer's intentions. For instance, if "Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy" were played on a tuba, it would have to be called "Waddle of the Sugar Plum Elephant."<BR> </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My, sounds interesting!<P>

[serge urtizberea]

If nothing else, this topic has ripened into something that has touched nerves on all the important issues of the past little while.<P>Independence of thought should pervade at all times. We shuold not ever be told that what we like to listen to is wrong or not informed. If we end up liking something else later on, that is another matter. If you enjoy listening to c.m. transcribed for panflutes and zithers, who will say that is wrong? To the peron enjoying it, there is obviously something about that particular transcription that holds interest or importance.<BR>So, saying that Beethoven would not have appreciated his music played on different instruments in the future is not fair. Can anyone saying that refer to a note, a message, an instruction in Beethoven's hand saying that his music was never to be played in different instrumentation or transcription? Ludwig knew there would be a future, and that it would be different from the world he knew then. This insistence on 'originalism' pedantry, most annoyingly foisted upon the readers at another Beethoven forum, is unfair to the composer and rude to the 'dissidents'. <P>There can be something magical to the creative uses of c.m. Listen to the theme to "Babe", one of the best family films of all time. Does it sound familiar? Perhaps like Saint-Saens? Was it wrong for Nigel Westlake, the film's composer, to adopt the S-S theme for his own purposes? Absolutely not, esp. when the final result is just as glorious as the original.<P>

[~Leslie]

Steady now, my friends, if you want to start a rumble in the jungle, I invite you to start your own thread. <P>Please remember that this thread which is steadfastly becoming an institution, is dedicated to the future of the classical tradition, and how you percieve it will be. I see this forum becoming more diverse now, and with that comes a wider spectrum of conviction and opinion. <P>There will be always be traditional purists, <BR>and there will always be those that wish to question and reshape the boundaries, that is how music has evolved throughout history, and that is what makes our spirited discussion so interesting. <P>I wish to hear both sides, so long as it doesn't turn into an internet mud slinging match. <P>Onward and Upward~<P>

[Peter]

(Apologetically......) I don`t wanna argue with anyone if it`ll cause grief; & I certainly don`t wanna sling mud at Nicole - she`d be all yukky for our photo-shoot...... <P>PS. John. Ol` Brit, INDEED! (I`m probably not as old as you think............)

[John]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peter:<BR><B>... John. Ol` Brit, INDEED! (I`m probably not as old as you think............) </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hello Peter!<P>Well, "ol" is an endearing term, like "good ol buddy, pal, friend, etc." Heavens, I would never assume that you are, how do I say it, OLD! <P>And as for your response to the "challenge," you whimped out. You know that Nicole is an American, and you are probably still a bit shell-shocked that we Americans blew raspberries at the King and went independent over 200 years ago. Come-on, I insulted you! Fight I say! Nicole can beat you anytime (right, Nicole??)<P>John "Proud to be an American"<P><BR>

[The Great Mazinga]

May the Wings of Liberty never lose a feather....<P>We need some Souza here!!! <BR>

[Nicole Marie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John:<BR><B> Hello Peter!<P>Well, "ol" is an endearing term, like "good ol buddy, pal, friend, etc." Heavens, I would never assume that you are, how do I say it, OLD! <P>And as for your response to the "challenge," you whimped out. You know that Nicole is an American, and you are probably still a bit shell-shocked that we Americans blew raspberries at the King and went independent over 200 years ago. Come-on, I insulted you! Fight I say! Nicole can beat you anytime (right, Nicole??)<P>John "Proud to be an American"<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Damn right John!<BR>

[The Great Mazinga]

Dat's all I can stanz, I's cants stanza no more!<P><BR>I think the duel is afoot......go get em girl.<P><BR>

[Nicole Marie]

Wait....what battle am I fighting? Who's side am I on?