rhythmic HELP!!!!! PLEASE!!!!!

[violinist4ever]

Hey everyone! I am in a jam here. I have a final in my music class on Monday and I need help! Does anyone know a good website that can help me listen and identify time signatures? I am having a hard time telling the difference between simple and compound meters. I don't know why I am having this problem....I don't know what to do! If anyone can help me, I would really appreciate it!! Thanks a lot!

[trombonepirate]

I don't know of any websites that do this, but one thing that helped me is to conduct a lot of pieces while I was listening to them and looking at the score. It helps to get the overall feeling of a piece. Also remember that compound time is going to sound like a lot of triplets. In other words it often has a sort of waltz feel, especially 6/8 and 9/8. 7/8 is going to sound uneven like a beat of 2 + 3 or 3 + 2. 8/8 is a bit tricker depending on the period. The more modern stuff often comes off as 3+3+2 or some combination like that. 12/8 can also be tricky but it often sounds like a four beat with triplet-like patterns in every beat. If while you're conducting four can think 1,2,3; 1,2,3 and your numbers land consistantly with some part of the music (melody or harmony) then odds are good you are in compound time. Don't feel embarrassed about air conducting during your test (unless that's verboten). Also you might what to try searching for "music ear training", "aural skills" and so forth in google, though when I did it nothing quickly sprang to sight. Good luck on your test. I remember dictation classes well and absolutely hated every single minute of them.
TBP

[OperaTenor]

TBP nailed it for the most part. The only thing I can think of to add is that the subdivision in a compund meter will feel differently with different tempi. At fast tempi, it will feel more like 4/4 than 12/8, for instance. However, TBP's rule of being able to count threes under the primary pulses will always identify a compound meter. Odd time signatures(7/8, 9/8, etc.) will always have that 2 + 3 + 3 or 3 + 2 type feel to them also if they are fast.

Hope I didn't muddy the waters any.......

BTW, a good example of feeling the threes under the primary pulses would be O Holy Night. Feels like 4, but it's 12/8.

<small>[ 12-10-2005, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>

[violinist4ever]

Thank you guys so much for the help so for. I'm trying to memorize it. I have a question... A Hemiola rhythm is when you have two rhythms with each other, right? Is there a specific meter that hemiolas are always in? I know it is in the America song from westside story, but that is the only example that I can think of off the top of my head. I am so sorry for asking these question, I just really want to get an A and for some reason this hard for me even when it shouldn't be.... My teacher is also going to be playing some Indian instruments which is making me even more nervous, because for some reason, it is harder for me to tell with those. All of your suggestions and anything else that you can give is greatly appreciated! Thanks a lot!

[OperaTenor]

TBP may have a better explanation for it, but as I understand it, a hemiola usually refers to a duple suspension over a triple meter, spanning multiple measures, so you get a drawn out duple feel in a triple meter. It may be that it's any kind of conflicting suspension over a given meter, I'm not sure.

[barfle]

Originally posted by OperaTenor:
a hemiola usually refers to a duple suspension over a triple meter, spanning multiple measures, so you get a drawn out duple feel in a triple meter.

And I thought patents were full of indecipherable jargon!

<small>[ 12-11-2005, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: barfle ]</small>

[OperaTenor]

It 's that Music Theory 101 speak........

But then, in the past, when asked what a hemiola was, I would ask in response if it was a Mopar product..........

ba dum - CHING!

[barfle]

Originally posted by OperaTenor:
Mopar product..........

Headight fluid reservoir.

[bignaf]

there's often confusion regarding hemiolas (I heard [well educated] people refer to triplets v. duplets as hemiola), but OT got it right. i think it can technically mean any rhythmic pattern that implies a different metre than the existing one, but usually occurs as duble within triple in the common practice era...

[NateBrei]

Would that include Bach's "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring"? I seem to recall that the organ/piano accompaniment sounds like it is in triplets while the melody/vocal part is sung in straight time.

Also, my daughter has been working on a couple of dissimilar piano pieces. One is John Williams' theme from "Sabrina" and the other is Chopin's Premier Ballade No. 1 & I know she's been working on how to get/count different numbers of notes in each hand in the same "beats". It seems the technique her teacher has offered is to find the lowest common denominator of the number of beats & count it in that slowly at first until she gets the feel for how they fit together.

I'm a neophyte here & have never really taken alot of theory classes so I could be WAY off base.

But, for what it's worth,
Nate

<small>[ 12-12-2005, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: NateBrei ]</small>

[OperaTenor]

Hi Nate,

I'd have to listen to it again to be sure, but from what I recall, yes, you've got the idea. You know it's in three, but it feels like two(or four).

Thanks, *ig, for the confirmation. Theory 101 was a long time ago for me.

[violinist4ever]

Thank you everyone for all your help.... I actually got my grade on the test after I took it.... I am a little disapponited... I got 5 right out of 8. I didn't do so well, but there were other parts to the test that I did well on, so I didn't fail. But thank you everyone so much for all your efforts. I did take one of your suggestions and conduct..I think that helped. And thanks for the offering to go out for a beer, guys! Thanks again, everyone!!! I love you guys!

[violinist4ever]

oh, and II have one more part to my final on Friday... I think that's Beethoven's birthday, so hopefully, he will bring me good luck!

[trombonepirate]

Glad to hear you did alright on your test. I remember one semester of dictation I practiced for an hour a day and was thrilled to get a C on the class overall. Glad those days are over. As for hemiola OT nailed it as far as I know. A good example is the Beethoven Eroica (1st mvt) I think. There's also a lot in Baroque music like Handel and probably Bach too. I've always been a bit slow when it comes to rhythms (which makes playing jazz a real pain sometimes) so don't worry if it doesn't come easily to you. Odds are good it will eventually come. Keep conducting and good luck on the rest of your exams.
TBP

[DavidS]

Originally posted by trombonepirate:
thrilled to get a C

Was that a C sharp or a C flat?

[bignaf]

anything by Brahms should have a hemiola somewhere.

[OperaTenor]

Originally posted by bignaf:
anything by Brahms should have a hemiola somewhere.

...or any late 60's Chrysler......

[trombonepirate]

Originally posted by DavidS:

Originally posted by trombonepirate:
[b] thrilled to get a C

Was that a C sharp or a C flat? [/b]

C flat sadly enough. But we have a saying over here "D is for Degree". Besides, trombone players don't need good ears. We usually are playing too loud to hear the rest of the group anyway.

TBP

[violinist4ever]

HAHAHAHA TBP Are you a current music student?

[OperaTenor]

[brag] I aced ear training and dictation, both of which were part of my Theory 101 course(I aced the whole thing, for that matter). I even tutored my classmates during class time in those areas by the end of the year. [/brag]