How Sad

[analog]

deleted

<small>[ 02-13-2006, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: analog ]</small>

[OperaTenor]

Originally posted by Selma in Sandy Eggo:

Originally posted by OperaTenor:
[b] [b]I select my vehicles for primarily practical reasons.[/b]

No, you selected your bike because you love your bike, and because you think your bike is cool, and because you enjoy riding your bike.[/b]

The reasons I love the bike are rooted in practicality. I'm a believer in function over form.

1. It's a comfortable, adjustable riding position.
2. It's good on gas.
3. It has detachable, waterproof, lockable, spacious hard luggage.
4. It commutes(no longer applicable for me), travels and sport rides reasonably well. I've never ridden anything else that finds a better compromise of the three.
5. It's a comfortable passenger bike, even while sport riding.
6. BMW builds the only production motorcycle with ABS as standard equipment, and pioneered m/c ABS development.
7. BMW builds the only m/c with impact absorption engineered into it. The bike is structurally designed to absorb a portion of the force of impact in a crash that would otherwise be transmitted to the rider.

I could go on....

Also originally quoth Selma:

Originally posted by OperaTenor:
[b]What was that I said about screwed up values?

And it's only screwed up if you completely dismiss personal pleasure and emotional gratification as valid selection criteria. Which I don't, and which you don't either (witness the very, very, very cool bike!). [/b]

Why does consumption bring pleasure/emotional gratification? Is it because we're conditioned to it?

For that matter, does consumption make us truly happy? I don't think so. I think it's more a result of being propagandized for most of our lives that we're not good enough unless we buy____________.

[analog]

I know "Damn Yankees" is an adaptation of Faust. My seventh grade English class went to the local playhouse to see it, ca 1959.
I wonder how that'd go over today.

Does anyone see Faustian overtones to "Bad News Bears" ?

[OperaTenor]

Oh yeah, gotta include #8:

8. BMW builds m/c's with virtually no planned obsolescence built inot them. I've known a couple of guys who had bikes with >500,000 miles on them with nothing more than routine scheduled maintenance.

I really ought to see "Bad News Bears" sometime, hadn't I?

[Shapley]

OT,

Around here, there are far more casualties in minivans than in SUV's. Why? Because, while they are billed as 'seven passenger vehicles', they actually become unstable when that heavily loaded. I've noticed it in all three of the minivans we've owned (two Chrysler's and a Chevy Astro).

I do not know if the same instability exists in the SUV, as we have yet to load it so fully. I do know, however, that of the many SUV's I have seen fully loaded, they do not appear to exhibit the instability that I see in minivans. It is true that SUV's have a higher center of gravity, increasing the likelihood of a rollover in the event of a loss-of-control condition, but the minivan seems more likely to produce an out-of-control condition in the first place.

V/R
Shapley

[OperaTenor]

Ya got stats to back that up?

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

I still think the reason OT has a bike at all, is because he enjoys riding his motorcycle. All eight of the various reasons why he has that particular motorcycle are undoubtedly true, but the root cause of the motorcycle purchase is the pleasure OT derives from riding motorcycles. Go ahead, evade that!

Igor the Behemoth (an '04 Sienna) has the AWD setup, and some other stability bells and whistles - it feels stable. At least to me. I don't think it's ever been loaded to its theoretical capacity, though.

I like "Damn Yankees". I wanna be Lola. Whatever Lola wants, Lola gets... Drat. Now I'll be humming all afternoon.

[OperaTenor]

Originally posted by Selma in Sandy Eggo:
I still think the reason OT has a bike at all, is because he enjoys riding his motorcycle. All eight of the various reasons why he has that particular motorcycle are undoubtedly true, but the root cause of the motorcycle purchase is the pleasure OT derives from riding motorcycles. Go ahead, evade that!

Guess what? I found out I enjoyed riding after getting into it for purely practical reasons. :p

While on das Boot, at the sub base, in order to park a car within a mile of the pier, I'd have to go in at least an hour and a half before quarters(7:30am). Rather than hang out in the boat, and thereby run the risk of being snagged to work early, I'd hang out on the pier talking with some of my fellow crew members. We consistently saw the guys who commuted by motorcycle leisurely pull in and park in the m/c lot, conveniently located at the end of the pier, and then saunter in to work on the boat. Now, it only took me about three years of observing that routine to figure out that maybe they knew something I didn't, and at least were getting 1.5 hours more sleep than me. I bought a scooter, started getting more sleep as a result, learned a scooter is a little small for long commutes, so I stepped up to a real m/c(more stable, more power to get out of trouble, more payload capacity).

Consider your bubble burst.

Oh, and by the way, since virtually giving up commuting on the bike, there have been several discussions on the merits of keeping it, and if it wasn't for Piq, it would probably be gone. For practical reasons, no less.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

You cannot my bubble burst. I'm pretty much unburstable, at this point. In fact, I consider you a strong case-in-point for my observation that we do things for pleasure. You clearly enjoy arguing.

[OperaTenor]

That wasn't my point in the first place. It was about how we as a culture have lost a good part of our value system to being conditioned to consume, as opposed to valuing what we have.
You took what I said and turned it around on me to make me sound hypocritical, and I simply told you why that wasn't the case(which you still refuse to accept, seemingly).

iy:

Following along that line, I tend to err on the other side of that: I place so much value on what I do have, I can't be parted from it.

Packratus Ginormous.



What's even scarier is that two of that kind not only married each other, but reproduced!



<small>[ 02-13-2006, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

I'm still snickering at the thought of trying to use logic to talk a 4-year-old out of thinking that Poke'mon is cool. I did it different; I agreed that Poke'mon is cool, and I bought Legos. Not Poke'mon. Of course, I still own that '94 Tercel, too. It's up to 143,000 miles, or so.

If you need help clearing out the garage, I'm willing to come over, throw valuable treasures into a dumpster. No problem.

[barfle]

Originally posted by OperaTenor:
Following along that line, I tend to err on the other side of that: I place so much value on what I do have, I can't be parted from it.

Packratus Ginormous.

Also originally posted by OT:
[b]What's even scarier is that two of that kind not only married each other, but reproduced!

Yeah, but the other two are so darn cute!

[barfle]

Originally posted by Selma in Sandy Eggo:
Of course, I still own that '94 Tercel, too. It's up to 143,000 miles, or so.

'92 GMC Jimmy has 192k. Getting tired, and all those car-based SUVs are soooo tepid.

<small>[ 02-13-2006, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: barfle ]</small>

[OperaTenor]

She was more like 6 at the time, not so easily hoodwinked, which is not a method I prefer anyway. I try to apply the Golden Rule when rationalizing with a child. If I want them to eventually trust me enough to be straight with me, I have to be straight with them. I don't believe shell gaming and ultimatums("Because I said so, that's why!") are the basis for building a trusting relationship with my future adolescent. The explanation may come after the fact(I'd rather make sure she doesn't grab the kite string wrapped around the power line before she knows why it's a bad idea), but I will stubbornly insist she knows the real rational behind the edicts.

Not perfect, but honest, and I'll take honesty any day over perfection.

<small>[ 02-13-2006, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

My discussions were simpler. Went, more or less, like:

<Hug> I love you very much, and you're cute, too, and I'm not buying a Poke'mon.

<Wail> Why?

I don't like them, so I'm not buying any. Now, I like Legos. If you wanted Legos, I'd buy them...

<several minutes> The cool ones with the moon crawler?

Is there one over on the shelf? Sure. That's a toy I like.

<negotiation over. Purchase made. pre-existing one-toy rule invoked.>

Honesty doesn't require long explanations.

[treebeau]

Originally posted by OperaTenor:
Originally posted by OperaTenor:

1. It's a comfortable, adjustable riding position.
2. It's good on gas.
3. It has detachable, waterproof, lockable, spacious hard luggage.
4. It commutes(no longer applicable for me), travels and sport rides reasonably well. I've never ridden anything else that finds a better compromise of the three.
5. It's a comfortable passenger bike, even while sport riding.
6. BMW builds the only production motorcycle with ABS as standard equipment, and pioneered m/c ABS development.
7. BMW builds the only m/c with impact absorption engineered into it. The bike is structurally designed to absorb a portion of the force of impact in a crash that would otherwise be transmitted to the rider.

Ah! A counter tenor !!

Regards,
Tim B.

[OperaTenor]

Originally posted by Selma in Sandy Eggo:
My discussions were simpler. Went, more or less, like:

<Hug> I love you very much, and you're cute, too, and I'm not buying a Poke'mon.

<Wail> Why?

I don't like them, so I'm not buying any. Now, I like Legos. If you wanted Legos, I'd buy them...

<several minutes> The cool ones with the moon crawler?

Is there one over on the shelf? Sure. That's a toy I like.

<negotiation over. Purchase made. pre-existing one-toy rule invoked.>

Honesty doesn't require long explanations.

:confused:

You changed your story from the earlier post. First, you said you'd agree they were cool, and now you say you'd say you don't like them.

Even at that, you're still caving and buying them yet another toy, this to bargain out of getting something you'd rather they didn't have. Just another lesson taught in conspicuous consumption, no value added.

No thanks, I'd rather stick to reason and logic.

This did work for me:

"I want a <whatever toy>."
"Really? How many toys do you have now? Can you tell me how many?"
"I don't know."
"Tell ya what, when you can tell me how many toys you own, we can talk about getting you something new."

She'd go in her room, time after time, start counting her toys, and get distracted by one of them she had the sudden urge to get reacquainted with, and the subject of the new toy would be forgotten. Every time, no bait and switch, no lying or ultimatums. I never had to follow through with the end of the deal, but I would have held up my end if it actually came to that.

I'm trying to teach Altoid that there is a lesson to be learned in everything. She may not have the comprehension for it just yet, but she will. That's one of the things that will help her to judge wisely and think before she acts as a rule. It will help instill a sense of value in her, personal as well as material. It will also help her develop a sense of morality.

Or so I hope....

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Hmmm. This must be one of those old-mom new-dad style things. Or maybe OT has a linear mind. (Mine is well-known to be nonlinear, with apparent discontinuitites in the alleged trains of thought.) ((But it works for me.))

You mean I have to like everything that I recognize as possessing the attribute of coolitude? Huh.

Nope. In my admittedly peculiar head, liking, recognizing coolitude or social imperatives, and purchasing are separate, entirely separate, processes. You stick to your childrearing notions, mine worked for me. Bribery and coercion figure prominently in my childrearing view. (OK, the theorists call it socialization, positive and negative rewards, behavior modification. It's still bribery and coercion.)

We are in agreement on one point: having offered a deal to a child, the adult is obliged to perform if the kid takes the deal. Never, ever, ever lie to a kid. Distract, yes. Divert, you betcha. Lie, bad idea.

My sneaky tactics also established that Mom won't buy what she doesn't like. Before they hit puberty, and before they developed a (God help us) Sense of Fashion.

[piqaboo]

Seems to me the approaches are much the same.
I can only hope that long skirts and highnecked ruffled shirts are in fashion circa 2019.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Originally posted by piqaboo:
Seems to me the approaches are much the same.
I can only hope that long skirts and highnecked ruffled shirts are in fashion circa 2019.

I just got this visual of an older OT with the longlegged, brighteyed Altoid of about sixteen going on a date. Oh, my word, I want to be there to see it, and possibly take pictures.