Player Pianos

[OperaTenor]

Anyone else out there own one?

We have a 1922 Hamilton "Manualo"(made by Baldwin) that my parents got while I was in high school. The player action has never been rebuilt, and the pneumatic components are suffering from the fact of 80 year-old rubberized cloth(leaks, tears, stiffness). It essentially no longer works as a player, but I want to get it back into shape before Altoid is too old to be enchanted by it.

I did a little calling, and apparently player action rebuilding is not a service offered in the piano business around here anymore(no profit in it), so it looks like we'll be doing this ourselves as a project.

[analog]

Have you checked out the player piano webring?

http://www.player-care.com has a link to it, and to restorers by state.

What a great project. I remember putting coins in those things when I was just a little kid. Altoid will be enchanted with it!

<small>[ 03-07-2006, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: analog ]</small>

[bignaf]

well, you're well-trained. you have full instrument-builder credentials after the bassoon you made. :p

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

No, I don't own one. But I bet I can be helpful duplicating the ancient cloth parts out of more modern materials. I wonder what they use for those hot air balloons?

Don't throw away the ancient bits - consider them patterns.

Addition:
I looked at that website. It's got all the stuff! And a list of repairtechs, too! There's a couple in La Mesa!!!

<small>[ 03-08-2006, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: Selma in Sandy Eggo ]</small>

[OperaTenor]

Hi Analog,

Yes, I found the Player-care site today, as well as the only player piano parts distributor in the U.S.(who knows, possibly the entire planet), in Wichita, KS.

This one is a home model, not coin-operated. Foot pump only, no electric pump. I have ~75 rolls for it. I used to pump it for hours, playing some of the same pieces over and over (Romanian Rhapsody is one of my favorites on a roll), driving my family members crazy.

As for my training, I did apprentice a piano rebuilder for two years at the end of high school, so I know my way around the innards of a piano, as well as having a fair set of tools for it(I'll have to post a photo of a "Hammer Shank and Butt Extractor" sometime, along with a "Coil Winding Machine" )

I'll have to read up on it(book's on the way), but I have a feeling getting the old fabric off intact will be nigh impossible. However, Selma, your expertise may be called upon, if you're willing, when the time comes.

As for the material, it will still need to be rubberized cloth. Parachutes and hot air balloons use ripstop nylon, which I don;t think is airtight enough for the application.

There's a ratty shop on El Cajon Blvd here in town called "ABC Piano Co." that has a virtual museum full of ~200 pianos in various states opf disrepair. What caught my eye was he has a lot of players in the shop, including a full on orchestrion (albeit not quite as elaborate as this one). Kinda curious what the price tag on that one is. He also has a French upright from the 1830's prominently displayed in the front window, complete with its original candelabras.

Oh well, this project just has to get in line behind the others for now...

<small>[ 03-08-2006, 02:11 AM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>

[barfle]

If you happen to find a place in the Sandy Eggo area, let me know. My folks (in the Temecula area) have a relatively modern player piano (1960s) that is also suffering from the ravages of dried-out rubber (living in that area will dry out just about anything). My guess is that they might like to get it refurbished (and then give it to me?).

(Do I use too many parentheses?)

[piqaboo]

Originally posted by barfle:
(Do I use too many parentheses?)

No(that is not as far as Im concerned (but others may feel differently (which could be expressed as YMMV (if you are into that instant messageing type of shorthand (which I mostly dont understand with out translation (does anyone know where can I find a translator(I guess I'd be best off asking a teenager (does anyone have a teenager handy (one that would be willing to talk to an outofit fogey that is ))))))))), you didnt.

[BigJon@Work]

Originally posted by piqaboo:
No(that is not as far as Im concerned (but others may feel differently (which could be expressed as YMMV (if you are into that instant messageing type of shorthand (which I mostly dont understand with out translation (does anyone know where can I find a translator(I guess I'd be best off asking a teenager (does anyone have a teenager handy (one that would be willing to talk to an outofit fogey that is ))))))))), you didnt.

(HAH!)

[OperaTenor]

Hi Barfle,

From what I've seen so far, this place is probably a safe bet:

Orange Coast Piano

They're in Santa Ana.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

OT: your mailbox is full.

[OperaTenor]

Not anymore.

[Jane]

Originally posted by OperaTenor:
Anyone else out there own one?

We have a 1922 Hamilton "Manualo"(made by Baldwin) It essentially no longer works as a player, but I want to get it back into shape before Altoid is too old to be enchanted by it.

Oooh, we have one at my house. We inherited it from my grandmother. Off the top of my head, I'm not sure who built it or when. But I know my siblings and I have spent many hours pumping that thing. When our legs got tired we'd each take a pedal and push them with our hands. It always facinated me how the piano translates those hole filled scrolls into music (with moving keys and everything!!). Still haven't figured it out. But its really fun to have.

I hope you're able to get yours up and working again!

[OperaTenor]

HI Jane,

If you can give me the name of the manufacturer and the serial number(it will be a five or six digit number stamped on the soundboard near the top, sometimes through a hole in the cast iron plate.

I have a reference book on piano serial numbers and corresponding dates of manufacture(the Pierce Piano atlas).

Yours still works well?

[OperaTenor]

I am now armed with:

A perfect reproduction of the 1916 factory manual for the Baldwin Manualo player action.
Player Piano Servicing and Rebuilding by Art Reblitz
Piano Tuning, Servicing and Rebuilding, also by Art Reblitz(This book has long been considered the best reference volume written for piano technicians.)

Still waiting for a catalog from Player Piano Supply Co. for a parts source.

A quick scan through the player piano rebuilding book confirmed that hot animal glue is still the glue of choice(to facillitate future disassembly), and that all of the traditional materials(rubberized cloth, leather, etc.) are still preferred.

He also has a section addressing the individual aspects of each manufacturer, and has a section pertaining to ours. Ours is not one of the favorites of rebuilders, but when put together properly is a fine player action.

[Jane]

Originally posted by OperaTenor:

If you can give me the name of the manufacturer and the serial number...

I have a reference book on piano serial numbers and corresponding dates of manufacture(the Pierce Piano atlas).

Yours still works well?

Gah! I keep forgetting to look for the serial number when I go home. I'd love to know the date and manufacturer. I'll remember to look this time!

Yes, it does work. Amazingly enough. One of the foot pedals has detatched itself from the base, making pumping a little more hazardous to one's health if a foot slips. But I don't think it will take much to repair it -- just a screw or or two.

Most of our music rolls are in good shape too, though they are getting more brittle with age. There is an occasional wrong note or five where a tear may have perforated a scroll here or there. But overall they're pretty good too.

[OperaTenor]

Hi Jane,

If the piano has its original finish, there will be a label on the fallboard(key lid) with the manufacturer's name. If the piano has been refinished, it's also cast into the metal plate inside, usually in the upper right hand corner.

The serial number can be elusive. Just remember that it's always stamped in the wood of the soundboard.

[Jane]

Hi OT,

What a treasure hunt. I've now learned how to disassemble (and reassemble) much of my piano!

On the fallboard (I don't know why I didn't just look there in the first place) was:

MILTON
New York
Case Patented May 16th 1916

So, I'm guessing it was made at about that same time.

Inside near the serial number (111488) (At least I *think* it's the serial number) I found a couple of names penciled in. One dated 1925, the other 1933. Pretty neat thing to find.

So there we have it! How does it match up with your Book o'Pianos?

<small>[ 03-14-2006, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: Jane ]</small>

[OperaTenor]

Hi Jane,

It was indeed built in 1916. Patent dates are a bit unreliable to go by, but it looks like yours is the exception to the rule.

Milton is a good piano, especially pre-Depression era. They were bought out by Kohler & Campbell in 1957.

Pretty fascintating inside, isn't it?

The hand written dates are probably tunings. Old school piano tuners used to always write the date of the tuning inside, usually on the board at the top. Later they took to taping or glueing a business card with the date written on it.

Did you happen to touch any of the rubber or cloth parts inside? If so, did they feel supple, or stiff and dry?

90 years is a long time for natural rubber.

[barfle]

Originally posted by OperaTenor:
Patent dates are a bit unreliable to go by

Tell me about it.

A patent date simply tells you when the patent was granted. Before that (at least these days) prosecution of a patent can take anywhere from one year to as long as the money holds out. But a patent is not a requirement for manufacture, so a device could have been built before a patent was granted, but somehow I don't think they'd put a patent date on the device before it was granted.

Just to give you an idea of how long a patent application can languish, I am working on cases that were filed in June 2001, and this is the first examination of the application. I may well decide that the application was misassigned to me, and the transfer will undoubtedly delay the first examination by several months. Part of that is due to the heavy workload (lots of applications, and a finite number of examiners), and part of it is due to the number of times an applicant can amend and argue his or her case.

There are, unfortunately, plenty of stories about a patent being granted after the invention is obsoleted by newer technologies. The powers that be are trying to change some of the rules, but not very many of the people working in the business think they're great ideas. What we do know is that the system isn't working as it is, so the PTO needs to "invent" a more streamlined system.

You can probably look up the patent, particularly if you have the US patent number. That's not to say that it will be interesting. :yawn icon:

[OperaTenor]

We had the piano tuned this past Monday by a woman technician(she and I agreed that women tend to have better high frequency hearing/degrades with age less) who also happened to be a player piano rebuilder(the other guy bum-doped me). Even though the exterior of the piano looks rather battered and the finish is age crackled(which both Piq and me like) and getting a little milky, she raved about the fine condition of the instrument itself, especially the regular piano action. As for the player, while acknowledging its dire need for rebuilding, she thought it was also exceptionally well-preserved, and would only require a partial rebuilding. One of the nice aspects of the way she presented herself was that she in no way overtly tried to sell their(she and her husband are both player piano techs) services as a rebuilder, she instead encouraged me to go ahead and do the job myself. As opposed to the book I got on the subject, she had a lot of praise for the Baldwin "Manualo" player action, and didn't think it was such a bear to clean up in disassembly. The only thing she thought was persnickety at all was the automatic tracking device, and she gave me some pointers on rebuilding that. She also offered her service for advice and getting parts(if necessary) when rebuilding time comes.

I had attempted to tune the piano ~10 years ago, to see if I still could in spite of the tinnitis. It was a disaster by my estimation. The tuner uses a strobe tuner for part of the tuning, and showed me how close the piano was to proper pitch, even after all these years. However, my unisons were positively awful towards the top of the scale(well duh! it is my high frequency hearing that's bad after all, right?), and that section of the tuning took her the longest to do.

BTW, never let your piano go that long between tunings. I'm like Serenity's signature, a bad example. Generally speaking, pianos should be tuned annually at a minimum, with each change of season(yes, 4 times a year!) being ideal. For most discriminating pianists, twice a year is recommended as a minimum.

Prior to the tuning, I stripped the piano down to the strings, cleaned every nook and cranny I could reach, and did a few other housecleaning items like brush felt rails, etc. I also removed the upper player action to facilitate access for tuning(which brought down the price of the tuning a little). While putting it all back together, I must've held my mouth right or something, because the player action is actually working again, which is something it hasn't done for several years! It has numerous air leaks, therefore requiring tenfold the amount of pumping as it would if it was airtight(giving me quite the aerobic workout in the process), but it at least plays, and Altoid finds it extremely entertaining. It's one of the few things she will actually stand still for currently.

Piq says it doesn't sound "honky tonk" anymore(the beating, out-of-tune unisons cause that). To me, it sounds almost heavenly.

Y'all bored yet?