Who Is the Greatest Composer Ever?

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Who Is the Greatest Composer Ever?

Postby LudwigvB9 » Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:43 pm

:)

There was a short, plain-looking man with a pockmarked face walking the streets of Vienna in the early 19th century. No wonder all women he proposed to rejected him and so he remained single all his life. The poor thing! As a boy, much to the chagrin of his father, he showed no signs of being a child prodigy; he was often crying, as he was forced by his father to play the piano.

And yet most scholars, musicians, and music lovers worldwide would agree with this statement: "A universal genius widely regarded as the greatest composer who ever lived, Ludvig van Beethoven dominates a period of musical history as no one else before or since." (Encyclopaedia Britannica, Volume 14, p 737a)

Music scholars and composers consider these music genres as the main ones: piano sonata, piano concerto, violin concerto, opera, mass, symphony, and string quartet. Most scholars would agree with my evaluation here:

Best piano sonata ever: Beethoven's Piano Sonata No 29 in Bb, Opus 106, "Hammerklavier" (1817–18)

Best piano concerto ever: Beethoven's Piano Concerto No 5 in Eb, Opus 87, "Emperor" (1809)

Best violin concerto ever: Beethoven's Violin Concerto in D, Opus 61 (1806)

Best opera ever: Mozart's Don Giovanni. But Beethoven's Fidelio, Opus 72 (c1803–05; 1814), follows very closely.

Best mass ever: Beethoven's Missa Solemnis in D, Opus 123 (1819–23)

Best symphony ever: Beethoven's Symphony No 9 in d, Opus 125, "Choral" (1822–24), or his Symphony No 5 in c, Opus 67 (1807–08)

Best string quartet ever: String Quartet No 14 in c#, Opus 131 (1826).

The string quartet is my favorite music genre because it's the most concise and elegant of all music genres—it expresses deep thoughts and ideas in a few phrases, just as mathematics expresses the deep secrets of the universe using a few symbols. The languages of music and mathematics have the same ground of being. But even though there have been a few people fluent in both languages, most music geniuses have not been great mathematicians and vice versa; Beethoven often struggled with basic arithmetic.

Furthermore Joseph Haydn, the father of the string quartet, considered it as great conversations with nature. And many scholars consider the string quartet as the pressure cooker of music, the most demanding musical genre, the brightest jewel in the crown of music. It is by far the best medium to write absolute music.

Moreover Beethoven spent the last two and a half years of his life writing nothing but string quartets—Opuses 127, 130, 131, 132, and 135—when he was totally cut off from society because he was stone-deaf. Doesn't this fact tell us something? He was sensing that his life on this gorgeous planet was coming to an end; he loved nature deeply and took long walks to gather musical ideas, which he jotted down using a carpenter's pencil. So he zeroed in on the most beautiful medium, the string quartet, to express abstract, concise, beautiful musical ideas.

Therefore "The five late string quartets contain Beethoven's greatest music, or so at least many listeners in the 20th century came to feel." (The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, Second Edition, 2001, Volume 3, p 106a)

Thus to me Beethoven is the greatest composer ever and his String Quartet No 14 is the greatest piece of music of all time. "...Beethoven next wrote the most closely integrated of all his large compositions. From this point of view, the Quartet of C# minor op. 131 may be seen as the culmination of his significant effort as a composer ever since going to Vienna. The seven movements [c#—D—(b)—A—E—g#—c#] run continuously into one another, and for the first time in Beethoven's music there is an emphatic and unmistakable thematic connection between the first movement and the last—not a reminiscence, but a functional parallel which helps bind the whole work together. A work of the deepest subtlety and beauty...." (The New Grove, Volume 3, p 107a)

:D
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Re: Who Is the Greatest Composer Ever?

Postby Shapley » Sun Mar 26, 2006 6:04 pm

Jerry,

Welcome to the B.com BB!

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Re: Who Is the Greatest Composer Ever?

Postby OperaTenor » Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:49 pm

Originally posted by Jerry Montero:


Best opera ever: Mozart's Don Giovanni. But Beethoven's Fidelio, Opus 72 (c1803–05; 1814), follows very closely.

Hi Jerry, welcome to the Pit! :)

I'm afraid I must disagree with your assessment of Fidelio. Beethoven, while truly being a genius, and arguably the greatest composer in general(on which I agree), composed only one opera for a good reason: It was mediocre at best. The music was stereotypical Beethoven(albeit relatively devoid of his typical passion), but the libretto was ghastly.

As for Wulfie, Bones will agree with you on his being the best opera composer, but I think Jack Puccini noses him out of first slot(I think *ignaf will agree with me here). Jack was tha master of telling the story with the music.

All IMHO, of course.

:)
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Re: Who Is the Greatest Composer Ever?

Postby bignaf » Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:15 am

really impressive first post!
however,
Hammerklavier is the most pretensious, boring, and overrated sonata ever. this is an objective fact! :p best sonata ever is the Waldstein, that's my opinion today.
piano concerto you got right. this is yet another objective fact.
Best violin Concerto ever, probably Brahms, but today it's Ligeti!
Best opera ever, Il Tabarro by Puccini (objective fact...). Fidelio vies with Fuersnot by R. Strauss for worst.
I won't argue about masses. I don't know enough.
You got symphony and string quartet right.

You seem to think this is enough to make Beethoven the greatest ever. however, Beethoven hasn't written even one legong dance! nor any music for the shadow play! I Wayan Lotring beats him by an infinite margin in these most important categories. therfore, I wayan Lotring is the greatest composer ever!

<small>[ 03-27-2006, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: bignaf ]</small>
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Re: Who Is the Greatest Composer Ever?

Postby Catmando » Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:54 am

Welcome to BBB Jerry!

I agree, that was an impressive first post!

Although Beethoven is my personal favorite composer, I can't say with certainty that he is the greatest of all time, in all the categories you mention.

As for overall greatest composer of all time? I think that will be up for debate for "all time". :) I don't think there is much argument that the "Big 3" are Beethoven, Bach and Mozart. You can scramble them in just about any order from 1 to 3.

My favorite of Beethoven's piano sonatas is "Appassionata", although the 1st movement of "Pathetique" is amazing! I happen to prefer his 4th piano concerto over his monumental "Emperor"

I have not listened to Beethoven's string quartets yet, thus if you can give me some recommendations Jerry, that would be great!

As for the symphonies, "The 9th" is numero uno without a doubt, and I'm torn between Beethoven's 7th, "Eroica" and "Pastoral" as my next favorite. I do think the 5th "Fate" symphony to be overrated, although I do love it.

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Re: Who Is the Greatest Composer Ever?

Postby barfle » Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:13 am

Gee, I like Fidelio.

But then I also like Paul McCartney's Liverpool Oratorio.
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Re: Who Is the Greatest Composer Ever?

Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:24 am

I don't suppose we're willing to consider Freddie Mercury?

Ducking, weaving, hunting for FRS :D
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Re: Who Is the Greatest Composer Ever?

Postby barfle » Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:28 am

Mass in F minor by The Electric Prunes...

Probably not one of the immortal works in the genre.
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Re: Who Is the Greatest Composer Ever?

Postby Shapley » Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:50 am

I think Bach's Mass in B Minor is superior to Missa Solemnis.

I agree with Beethoven's ninth being the best symphony ever written, and I love the seventh. However, if I were to be stranded on a desert island with only one composer's symphonies to listen to, I would choose Mahler's.

I think Rachmaninoff's Piano concerto #3 and Tchaikowski's #1 are superior.

When measuring the overall quality of the entire output of work, I think Beethoven is #1.

But that's just one mans opinion.

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Re: Who Is the Greatest Composer Ever?

Postby OperaTenor » Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:50 am

Originally posted by barfle:
Gee, I like Fidelio.

But then I also like Paul McCartney's Liverpool Oratorio.
I'm not familiar with Liverpool Oratorio.

Hey, that's the wonderful thing about the subjectivity of art. It's not like my opinion was taken from some factual reference.

The fact that you like Fidelio and I don't has little if any bearing on our individual levels of taste and sophistication(well, except for *ig, maybe :D
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Re: Who Is the Greatest Composer Ever?

Postby Shapley » Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:06 pm

Sorry, Double post.

<small>[ 03-27-2006, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: Shapley ]</small>
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Re: Who Is the Greatest Composer Ever?

Postby LudwigvB9 » Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:46 pm

Originally posted by rayzor17:


I have not listened to Beethoven's string quartets yet, thus if you can give me some recommendations Jerry, that would be great!

Ray
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Re: Who Is the Greatest Composer Ever?

Postby LudwigvB9 » Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:50 pm

Thank you Shapley, OperaTenor, bignaf, and rayzor17 for your comments!

Oh, my, rayzor17, you haven't listened to Beethoven's 16 string quartets yet? :cool:
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Re: Who Is the Greatest Composer Ever?

Postby Jane » Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:46 pm

I don't feel that I have enough knowledge or expertise in music to say which composer was\is the best or most talented or anything like that.

I will say, however, that of all the composers whose works I have performed or listened to, I enjoy Beethoven's music the most.

Usually there are a select few pieces of a composer's works that I enjoy listening to over and over. I have my favorite pieces, but I wouldn't necessarily buy an entire CD of any single composer. Except for Beethoven.

And, were I to become stuck on that blasted desert island with only one composer's works to entertain me, Beethoven is the only composer I would be able to choose. Because I actually do enjoy the vast majority of his works.

I probably just haven't listened to a broad enough range music. Perhaps I just need to listen to other composers' pieces more often . . . :D
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Re: Who Is the Greatest Composer Ever?

Postby Catmando » Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:52 pm

Thanks for the recommendation Jerry.

I'm still fairly new to the classical music genre, I've only scratched the surface.

But along with Dvorak and Mahler symphonies, I was also wanting to dive into Beethoven's string quartets.

I also want to explore other composers works that I haven't really listened to in depth, but I know that I enjoy some of their works. The list includes Vivaldi, Bach, Mozart, Berlioz, DeBussy and Chopin, just to name a few. :cool:

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Re: Who Is the Greatest Composer Ever?

Postby barfle » Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:33 pm

Gee, getting stuck with just one composer's works. Tough choice. I'd have to pick from Beethoven's 9th, Bach's 3rd Brandenburg, Holst's Planets, Copland's Rodeo, Respighi's Pines of Rome, Durufle's Requiem, Tchaikovsky's 1st Piano Concerto, Vivaldi's Four Seasons, Orff's Carmina Burana, Grofe's Grand Canyon, Borodin's Prince Igor, Strauss's Zarathustra, Ravel's Pavane, and a host of other music that I would hate to have to live without.

<small>[ 03-27-2006, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: barfle ]</small>
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Re: Who Is the Greatest Composer Ever?

Postby Jane » Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:32 pm

Originally posted by barfle:
Gee, getting stuck with just one composer's works. Tough choice. I'd have to pick from ... and a host of other music that I would hate to have to live without.
Don't get me wrong. I'd much prefer to listen to a variety than get stuck with one composer!! There are so many fantastic pieces out there . . . why stick with just one? Right?
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Re: Who Is the Greatest Composer Ever?

Postby barfle » Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:44 pm

RIGHT!!

I would guess if I was stuck with one composer, it would be JS Bach, since he was quite prolific and most of his work has hummable tunes, although Tchaikovsky is very enjoyable, too. But probably not as much music overall.

----------------------

Interesting conflict as I looked back at that paragraph. Bach was probably one of the most sane of the major composers, and Tchaikovsky was such a tortured soul, yet I find both of their works remarkably listenable.
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Re: Who Is the Greatest Composer Ever?

Postby dai bread » Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:08 am

I often find JSB very annoying, and find myself wondering why I listen to him. Then along comes a chorale or solo or chorus or orchestral work or instrumental work... that reminds me why I do.

I agree with O.T's asessment of "Fidelio". It's a very lacklustre piece and I'm sure it's still in the repertoire only because LvB wrote it and/or it involves political oppression.

As for the Greatest Ever, I have to go along with those who vote for LvB. I thought of Wolfie, seeing it was his birthday in January, because of his contribution to opera, espcially his later ones, but decided to settle for Ludwig as Best Overall.
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Re: Who Is the Greatest Composer Ever?

Postby OperaTenor » Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:07 am

Wow Barfle, you're a better man than I am if you can find many "hummable tunes" in J.S. Bach. To me, with exceptions, his work sounds like musical long division; so utterly precise and structured - tends to sound like what it largely is; rearrangements of different notes to fit the same old patterns.

And then, like DB said, there are those pearls that blow all of that drear away, but they're in the minority of his body of work.

All IMNSHO, of course....

If I went solely with my heart, Jack would have the #1 slot, but with the input from my head, it is LvB.

I think if I have another child, and it's a boy, he's gonna get Jack for a name.....
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