SIX LIES ABOUT LUDWIG VAN BEETHOVEN

[denison rosario]

six lies on Ludwig Van Beethoven <BR> <BR> <BR>1o - Beethoven was born on December 16, 1770. <BR>2o - Beethoven was a deaf musician that composed. <BR>3o - Beethoven was a continuador of the work of Haydn and Mozart <BR>4o - the father of the Romantic Music is Beethoven. <BR>5o - Beethoven's Music is known by a lot of people. <BR>6o - Beethoven is the largest sinfonista of the history. <BR>1 - the master of Bonn one of those rare people that are born between the 23:59 hs of one day and 00:00 hs of the another was. He was born exactly among the two minutes that it proceeds between the last moment of the 16 and the first moment of the 17. <BR>2 - Beethoven was not a deaf musician that composed. That is a myth spread for lay! Beethoven was, yes, a musician that composed that " it went being, slowly, deaf "; it is different. Perhaps many of its works would not be among us if the musician didn't know enough the emblems and sound effects of the instruments and modulations. Beethoven already had a lot of experience, even symphonic, when it was completely deaf. He was not a deaf of nascença and it got definitively sick when it was already in high adult age. <BR>3 - Beethoven is not a continuador of the work of Haydn and Mozart. They were essentially classic and they were part of a wide geographical-historical context. Beethoven is fruit, not of those masters, but of the French Revolution, of the fashion Strung und Drugs and of the heroic-fraternal philosophy that the Humanism was planting in the History of Europe. Haydn and Mozart are symbols of something wider and complex, simplifications of an entire historical context in the musical art where they participate several taxpaying musicians. <BR>4 - Beethoven was a composer of classic music. Its symphonies and works never destroyed the rigid structure of the Classicism; they affected plenty the alicerces, gave a lot of varieties and expression novelties, but they didn't leave the classic universe; when it happened some element that fled to the rules, Beethoven just followed the tendencies of the time. Romantismo in the music was a wide process that just invaded Europe, non work of a Man. As well as Haydn it was not the only creator of the symphony or of the quartet, it is missed to say that a man was the pioneer in that or in that. Beethoven was a great catalizador of the ideas of its time. <BR>5 - Beethoven's music is known by a lot of people. It had lied!!! In the general, the people just know spaces of works, arias, isolated movements and fragments of the classic works. With Beethoven he/she gives him the same; the one that the people know the first theme of the piece for piano Fur Elise - heard in a box of oriental music or in a phone wait; in the general the people know the first four compasseses of the first movement of the 5a Symphony; they know the theme of the Ode to Sinfonia Chorale's Happiness and ready!!! <BR>The ones that are admitted lovers of Beethoven, they also exaggerate in saying that know the master's music; they just know the 9 symphonies, four or five sonatas p / piano (generally the most famous Pathetic, <BR>To the luar,etc.), they know two or three concerts and other isolated pieces and they say to know Beethoven's music. <BR>I will comment the importance of the audition of certain works and I will show that rare lovers beethovenianos really knows the master's of Bonn creative process. <BR> <BR>Sonatas for piano: It is of highest importance to know the 32 sonatas for piano, because they were part of its creative process from the beginning to the end and each one, to its way, is a report of its desenvolvimento;temos of also considering that Beethoven was a pianist before everything and the sonatas were its largest middle of expression. <BR> <BR>Other works p / piano: It is an absurd one to know just some sonatas and not to know other works writings for the piano; two of its largest works cousins in all the goods are in the piano soil; the 33 variations on a waltz of Anton Diabelli and the Trifles op.126 deserve more attention on the part of who lover of the music of Ludwig Van Beethoven is said. The group of variations has as departure a vulgar theme and it leaves for the most ingenious transfigurações of theme of the History; same if being about Beethoven, the brilliant idea here is frightening. Not less brilliant they are the six miraculous miniatures of the universe op. 126; it shows that Beethoven felt so much comfortable with the works of great scale as well as the miniatures. <BR> <BR>Sonatas p / violin and piano: He wrote ten of them and the Sonatas Primavera, Kreutzer and Op. 96 are the largest marks of its three different phases; the classic, the heroic and the spiritual. The audition of all they are recommended. <BR> <BR>Camera: Many know and they talk about the quartets; really any lover of Beethoven should know the first quartets op.18, the medium ones and finally - that that many find to be its largest work - the last quartets. Its quartets seem to want to form a complete orchestra and they possess nuances worthy repeated auditions; they are the best of its camera music. However, it is right to remind that Beethoven began to compose camera music from youth with Trios (its op. 1 are three trios with piano) and he/she only stopped composing them to the 41 years of age, when it reached the perfection with the trio Archduke. Another subject to be considered is that the three trios of the op. 9 were its first work it excels, the best work writing until then. <BR>With relationship to the quintets, so little commented or heard, the master made a 1a attempt in the op.4 and it reached the perfection in its work it excels in the gender with the Quintet op. 29; how many fans of Beethoven do know this work? <BR>Considering that it only composed two quintets for strings, it is worth to know the two and to notice the development. <BR>With relationship to the sonatas for cello and piano is important to know that the op. 5 are the first important work writing for the combination of the History; few had tried the new form. As well as it happens with the sonatas p / violin, those sonatas are also witness of the three phases of the master, that it ends in the spirituous op. 102 for cello and piano, with its escapes and expressions never before view in the gender. <BR> <BR>Concerts: Beethoven was not a lot of fan of concerts; actually it was purely Viennese in its artist attitude. We have to accept that certain instruments or forms are more than a nation than of another; therefore the flute, the ballet and the harp belong more to Frenches, the violin to the Italians, as well as the tradition chorale, sacred, I sing to the capella and oratories belong more to English. It is like this with the opera and the concerts, that are typical of Italy. In this sense, with its deep influences operísticas, of Venetian melodies and its tendency to the concert and its music italianizante, Mozart is less Austrian than Beethoven. The master of Bonn preferred the quartets, the symphonies, Scherzo and the maximum instrument of Vienna: the piano. <BR>Therefore its first lunge in concert was in the piano; the one of in the 2 it was written first. He/she only wrote, as exception, a concert p / violin and a work with technical, but very beautiful and inventive flaws: the concert triple, a type of classic thick concert. The conc. p / violin is work it excels; it is as if him caprichasse soon in the first, because he/she knew that would not have other (as Brahms also made it). <BR>After the 2o concert p / piano, wrote the 1o and it was being developed until the wonderful 3o concert. <BR>The two last (the 4o and the 5o"Imperador ") they are works cousins of the gender and models for Romantismo; but if he/she doesn't love the piano so much, with certainty, he/she would only write a concert for him, as well as he/she did with the violin. <BR>After the 39 years he/she stopped of writing concerts definitively, revealing its true no-Italian spirit. <BR> <BR>Sacred works: Of the little sacred works we can highlight Oratorical Jesus in the Olive trees, because it is a dramatic and beautiful lunge, in spite of some unit flaws, the Mass in larger C, that it is a first attempt in entering in this universe and a rehearsal for its largest work, according to him same, that is the Missa Solemnis. How to accept that anybody says to know Beethoven without knowing its Missa Solemnis in larger ré, work of maturity that consumed it 5 tiresome years? <BR> <BR>Orchestral openings: those small pieces serve as " samples of pocket " of the master's orchestral potential. Its better pieces are Egmont and Leonore III. Indispensable. <BR> <BR>Opera: The Italian forms, I eat it was already said, it didn't attract a lot to Beethoven and him it solved, with a lot of difficulty, to just give a contribution to the gender; Fidélio came out victorious for being an opera that is about the roads of the French Revolution and it was written with very care and care. <BR> <BR>The sinfonias:Finalmente! After this great sinfonista, the gender never again it was the same. The one that Schubert is for the song, Beethoven is for the symphonic gender. Not even Mozart's symphonies and Haydn were themes for intellectual discussions. <BR>Its symphonies are Corpus more celebrated Artísticus and coeso detoda the Western Art. Each one possesses its private grace, but anything he/she/it compares to Sinfonia Eróica's Revolutionary Impact, to the synthesis of Thursday, to the rhythmic grace of the Seventh and to the intelectualidade full of spirit and solidarity of the Ninth Sinfonia Coral. The complete collection is essential, because - unlike its concerts p / piano - the symphonies don't cross a development line, but each one, to its way, possesses its own identity. <BR> <BR>6 - Beethoven is not the largest sinfonista of the History, as many say. With relationship to the complexity, Brahms can equal it, with relationship to the nobility of intentions, Tchaikovsky is to its side, Bruckner can be larger than he, with relationship to the scale and, if considerármos the amount of resources and everything the more than it was mentioned, Mahler, from a distance, it can overcome it; the one that Beehoven did for the symphony, with relationship to the expression and the growth in the way, will be unforgettable; but, also, it will be it Haydn, before him. There was, with certainty, other giant sinfonistas that you/they circulate side-to-side with Beethoven. <BR> <BR>

[Brahmsian]

I completley disagree that he wasn't a continuation of the classic tradition. Beethoven's early work is disticnctly classical, musicologists acknowledge this. To refute the Haydn-Mozart influence makes no historical sense.

[Nicole Marie]

I'd have to agree with Brahmism<P>Beethoven broke a lot of new ground in composing. He brought in many new ideas and paved the way for a break from the traditional classical.<P>I'd also be careful about point number 5. It's never a good idea to make so big of an assumption.

[Peter]

Well, Denison, I agree with some of your points, & disagree with others:<P>1). I should like to know from where your certain knowledge of Beethoven`s birth date comes: as far as I know, this has never been established. And even if he were born between one minute & another, when even these days such accurate records are not kept, the times you suggest would still mean a time prior to midnight on the 16th, December.<P>2). I agree.<P>3). I disagree. Beethoven idolised Mozart, & was tutored by Haydn. I suggest that it is a nonsensical view that his own early compositions were not a continuation of the established classical line.<P>4). I shall come back to.<P>5). I agree. Most people, when they claim to know the "Moonlight" sonata, in truth only know the adagio. Generally, those who claim to know the 5th Symphony, have heard only the opening movement. And there are many other examples.<P>6). This is contentious. Later composers than Beethoven used more musicians without expanding HIS form, yet HE expanded the Haydn/Mozart form with complete orchestral economy. I say that Beethoven WAS, unquestionably, the largest expansionist of symphonic form, although later composers used larger orchestras.<P>Denison, what you write is clearly heartfelt; I have enjoyed reading your great banquet topic. The six points you have raised here, though, are not "lies". Even if you disagree with public perception, these points are no worse than ambiguities, or misinterpretations, or myths.<P>I said that I would come back to your point, no.4:<P>This is a bit naughty of me, but I`m sure that your insights into Beethoven would be extremely appreciated on the Discussion Forum at:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/</A> <P>I look forward to your contributions <P>

[serge urtizberea]

You post some interesting points, denison. Like others here, I agree with some, but contend others.<P>Beethoven's birthtime was unknown to me. As far as I know, it has never been recorded; clearly, i'd be wrong if your info is correct. I'm sure the birth certificate would not record the time, as done today, and I wonder if the hard facts about the time are available, since they would be dependent on witnesses who looked at a clock in the house or a pocket watch at the actual moment of birth. The baptismal took place on the 17th for sure, so it is generally conceded Ludwig was born no earlier than the 16th, whatever the time of day. Nevertheless, if he was borm on the cusp of a new day, that would definitely be remarkable; auspicious, even.<P>I certainly agree with your second assertion. Most people who bother to learn at least a little of Beethoven as an individual know he wasn't born deaf, but began to grow so around age 30.<P><BR>That third point met with some resistance. I must add to it. Beethoven learned from the works and styles of Mozart and Haydn, who he respected immensely. The Sturm und Drang movement you refer to (I think) was musically adopted by Haydn himself! While the meaning of music as art was vastly "improved" through Beethoven, imho, stylistically, his music resembles M and H's considerably, at the very least until 1801.<P>The fourth point I agree with to a degree, partly because it validates my view of the third; that is, Beethoven stuck very much to the 'classical' form of composition which he learned from M and H, the original co-creators thereof. Some people believe Beethoven did not expand the form of music composition beyond adding instruments or scherzos in lieu of minuets. Since Beethoven practiced extreme rigidity in form, mever allowing for florid excess or vapid colorization, it is easy to claim Beethoven's reliance on old form. Romantic composers were more prone to flourishes and extended melodic phrasing, which proved not necessarily better at expressing human emotion. I don't know, that is for the individual to decide.<P>Fifthly, yes, that would have to be true of every composer. Unless you're a dedicated listener, knowing the full oeuvre of a composer is not possible. <P>I enjoyed reading your treatise after your 5 pts, but I wonder if you're trying to convince us, or are simply letting us know what you think. Surely anyone who has spent a few years studying Ludwig agrees with most of what you wrote as it is 'common' knowledge. To those who don't, though, the assertions expressed are fairly true to the mark.<P>I will disagree with Brahms as being Beethoven's natural successor, if only because I don't think Brahms' symphonies worked nearly as well as Ludwig's. I sort of enjoy his second and fourth, but I don't find them as concise, innovative, or expressive as Beethoven's. The first symphony is enjoyable on its own merits, but I would not consider it a counterpart to or the natural 10th symphony of Beethoven. That's just me. Other than Schumann, the German symphony holds no appeal for me past Ludwig. I turn to the French for my preferred 'romantic symphonies.

[audiogirl]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter:<BR>[B]Well, Denison, I agree with some of your points, & disagree with others:<P>Denison, what you write is clearly heartfelt; I have enjoyed reading your great banquet topic. The six points you have raised here, though, are not "lies". Even if you disagree with public perception, these points are no worse than ambiguities, or misinterpretations, or myths.<P>Peter/Denison---<BR>I really don't have the background to respond to this intelligently. I would not be surprised if Denison really meant "myths" and not "lies." Keep in mind how difficult it is to accurately express shades of meaning when you are writing in a language that is not your first. I assume this is the case with Denison. Although I don't always agree with you, Denison, I am amazed that you can express yourself so well. English is a tough language to learn. I have enough trouble teaching it to kids who have always spoken it.<P>audiogirl

[~Leslie]

Good point Audio girl. Semantics are the greatest undoing on the net. Words evolve, morph, change. Look at the word cheese. How is anyone just learning our language supposed to know this? It's all trial and error for them. ~

[JasonK]

Speaking of lies about Beethoven.....<P>I heard he faked all his playing, that Caspar did it all....is that true?

[Peter]

Leslie, just what is it with you & cheese? Maybe you are really a closet mouse, or perhaps you harbour a secret ambition to progress from horses to teaching mice to jump & canter? Gee, but they`d be tough to ride, though.<P>Anyway, now that I know your weakness, never get on the wrong side of me (as if ), or I may just start laying little traps for you.......

[denison rosario]

What chat is that of cheese, personal? <BR>is gíria of the it USA? <BR>The language really disturbs, but I agree that Brahms and its symphonies are not that big; I prefer its camera works... <BR>Everything that I spoke is what feel and I know for intuition or for researches in Vienna. <BR>One wants to see my photo and to know a club here on Beethoven in Brazil, visit: <BR>br.clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/beethovenfanclube <BR>When it arrives there, click in PHOTOS and it has my photo there under my name: Denison Fundador <BR>Thank you for the attention!

[~Leslie]

Hi everyone, What happened was someone did a college thesis on what kind of cheese the great artists ate before they went into a studio for a session, and that, for better or for worse, the cheese profoundly effected the outcome of the recording. <P>Peter, rest assured American mice accept no substitutes. They prefer Wisconsin sharp cheddar, or into the grain barrels they go in search of the real deal meal. <P>Dennison, what has happened here in the United States is that the word cheese has digressed to mean "cheesy" or cheap. Why? Because the food's quality itself has suffered and degenerated, arguably, along with the evolution of music itself. There are cheese products being sold here that are not even made from dairy (leche) called "processed cheese food" being palmed off (sold) as the real thing(realidad).The ingredients are scary! <P>Then there is the unctuous "cheese-whiz" never needing refrigeration, which to me is highly suspicious in itself. <P>So, what was once a word to describe a gourmet delight, has now been reduced to a word meaning "cheap", "not of good quality". <P>Which leads me to wonder Dennison, what kinds of cheese (and wine) were served at the dinner party you described?~<P>

[JasonK]

I, myself, eat the cheese-in-a-can before I go into the studio...that or a good gouda.<P>I hear Mozart ate the same.<P>

[~Leslie]

Which got me to thinking about what Stravinsky ate before he wrote The Rite of Spring. The way I see it, it must have been of unpasteurized quality, interlaced generously with jalepenos, peppercorns, possibly strichnine , LSD, and the hottest curry known to man. <P>There might have been a label on the packaging that read:<P>Warning: this product has been known to cause severe gastrointestinal disorder, and should not be ingested by persons on high blood pressure medications, pre-existing heart conditions, or liver disorders. <P>Should overdose occurr, immediately flush with equal amounts of H2O, Baroque, folk, Sousa, Elvis, and Stephen Foster. ~

[shostakovich]

Spread some cheese between Leslie and Peter, add a slice of ham (you know who), and what do we get? Another humor sandwich. I'd egg you on, but for fear sombody would get grilled. But enough of this horseradish. Time to get back to the topic. What was it?<P>Oh, Yes. Denison, I'm very interested in where you got the information about the birth between the 16th and 17th. I'd never heard that, and I'm a suspicious guy. Beethoven was not born famous, and there is nothing that I know of in his heritage to suspect he would be anyone special. Would anyone care enough about the minute he was born to record it? Momma Beethoven took more than a minute to deliver him. Do you have the starting and ending times? I'm impressed enough by your passion for Beethoven to think you might even have an answer to this. I'm also very impressed by your ability to communicate so well in English. Even Beethoven couldn't do that.<BR>Shos

[Peter]

Holy cow! Dairy good milking of the yolks, Shos, butter can we now get back to the eggcellent topic of Batterven? I`m churning to in-cream-se my knowledge, but yo-ghurt me udderly in a spin. Omelette me be!