for musicians or music teachers

[audiogirl]

I've noticed that quite a few of our active "posters" play an instrument. I took piano for a few years as a child, and recently stayed with the guitar for about a year. (Some of us are, putting it nicely, guitar-challenged.) Anyway, my point, and I do have one, is that my instructor, a Van Halen and Led Zeppelin guy who played the classics on the sly, taught with written music. When he had an extended hospital stay, I was referred to a different teacher at the same establishment who insisted that he could teach me to play by ear, and that I would be much better off this way. I thought he was an arrogant windbag. My question is:<P>Which is better, learning to read notes, or to play by ear? I know what I think most of you will say, but I would like your two cents or more if you have it. Is there merit in both methods, pros, cons, etc.<BR>Thanks for sticking around to read this.

[~Leslie]

Your question is a beauty, Audio girl. I've seen this topic hashed out before, including the great tablature debate.<P>Playing by ear is okay sometimes, because it teaches you to memorize tunes,and not to become too reliant on sheet music. It also helps improvisation. <P>However, in order for musicians to communicate to each other as a group, some sort of lead sheet is neccessary.<P>There have been many greats in the past that could not read music, Wes Montgomery was one of them. However, I tend to concurr that time learning to read is still time well spent, particularly if you wish to transcribe classical keyboard works to guitar.<P>You will find that the avid guitar shredder no matter how metal, still can crank out a few Bach preludes, sometimes just to show off, or to warm up their hands. ~<P>

[serge urtizberea]

An excellent question, audiogirl. While I'm not a full-fledged musician, I do play piano and am continuing lessons, so I can offer a bit of an opinion.<P>When I was younger, I, for whatever silly reason, chose not to take piano lessons even though I enjoyed piano music. I got an electronic keyboard for Christmas when I was ten, though, and began to play around with it. I could not read music then, and I did not even know how to identify the keys, but I tried to learn to make music copying tunes I heard onto the keyboard by trial and error. It was bad. Playing by ear took forever, and once I knew a song, I did not know anything about the mechanics of what I'd just played. While I knew that certain combinations of notes played at once made a nice sound, I did not know why they sounded nice. It was like playing blind.<P>Eventually, I started taking lessons, and it was instantly much better. Actually learning how to read a score, how to identify a key signature, and why it all works vastly improves the enjoyment of playing an instrument. Once you get in command of your instrument, there's no stopping you. Any score can be read, if not played, and the ability to take a new piece of music and play it by sight is a true accomplishment. It is just like learning another language. There is no substitute for a proper training in written music. Let 4-yr. old children play by ear, but give them proper lessons if they are to ever master the art.

[hornplayer]

Maybe its just cause I play a strictly classical instrument, but my vote goes to sheet music as well.

[hornplayer]

Kudos to all of you out there who have talent; Lord knows Ill never have any. I curse the person who ever made me enjoy classical music and want to try to play it.

[audiogirl]

The teacher I obviously respected used to refer to tabulature as "paint by number."<P>audiogirl

[Peter]

I took piano lessons from age 7, & made it to grade 6 before soccer & girls started fogging up my brain! I never got to find out if I would have found it more enjoyable learning by ear; I probably would have, I think, but for sure, one cannot become as proficient learning this way.<P>Another truism is that when one is able to play/understand music on one instrument, any successive one is less difficult to learn. When I moved on to guitar (age 13), I found that chord changes & vamping came very easily; picking, though, was tricky. I also found that unlike piano, I could work out tunes & chords more quickly by ear.<P>Hornplayer, why do you run yourself & your music down so? As I said elsewhere, you must be talented if you are able to play Mozart`s concertos & Beethoven`s sonata.

[hornplayer]

Talent! Ha! What a laugh! Everyone here has been lucky enough to not have do deal with my pessimism and self-hatred. I dont run myself down, its the truth. Are you kidding? I cant play ANYTHING! Depression sucks, let me tell you. Its part of the reason I HATE pop stars, the rich and famous movie star fakes, and all the stupid people who make lots of money without good cause! I hate all of you who idolize them, who look up to them, who visit EVERY SINGLE CONCERT of theirs, and fill youre room with STUPID photos of them! I HATE professional sports players, and all those phonies who dont GIVE to society, they just LEECH off of the STUPIDITY of others! Thats what I think of our society...you want to know what I think, I think society is filled with STUPID PEOPLE who are so IGNORANT! And this isnt about classical music, its not about music in general, its about the kind of people who DARE to think that they have a right to live! All of the STUPID kids in school, who sleep in clases and pick on others, and think that theyre on top, and smoke and drink and go through life living cause the DEMOCRATS and their HANDOUTS keep them alive. Well let me tell you everyone and all of those people, YOU SUCK. You dont know whats coming, you are going to have a CRAPPY life, and I am going to LAUGH at you as I step up every rung of the ladder to success. EVERY, SINGLE, STEP. Democracy doesnt breed mediocraty, it breeds a maggot crawling pile of festering GARBAGE. EVERYTHING is so WRONG with society it makes me sick. I dont know what I hate more, me or the world I live in. Thanks for listening, Im sure youre all GLAD you did.<P>Id like to point out in hindsight that most of this was a very rediculous post.<p>[This message has been edited by hornplayer (edited 03-07-2001).]

[BenG]

Nice venting! Nothing like reading a good, sincere rant. I'll tell you what bugs me--the adoration of young people. Who CARES what teenagers think is cool? There are business now that cater to the study of what young people think is cool--fashion, music whatever little stupidity is considered trendy or hip is picked up by the marketers and paraded as the 'in' thing. Sex is the biggest thing of course....and it is increasingly stripped of any mystery or subtlety. They all try to out-do each other and see how low they can go. These shock artists, starting with Madonna and perhaps ending with the likes of Eminem, have exhausted this venality and have succeeded in making sex boring. Or so one would think. Nevertheless, whoever is in their genetic prime is worshiped by the media. Forget ideas or creativity. All they need is image. MTV used to have music...now it's just tattooed, pierced, foul-mouthed, inarticulate (but attractive) young people barking out their in-your-face, violent and stupid banalities. WHO CARES?? Madison Avenue, apparently. Old people are vilified as if it were a character flaw to age. OOOO...he's OLD. What'sherface...Brittany Spears. She expressed revulsion that OLD people liked her music. "What?? Old people like my music? Oooo, that's disgusting!!" Well, I can't wait until these young know-nothings get old and discover what they really have inside. NOTHING. Emptiness. No more superfical beauty. Just vice. No inner character...just shallowness and narcissistic self-absorption. (Hmmm...sort of reminds me of a recent president).<P>Classical music is lost on most of the young people. The pressure to be 'cool' is too great. And so the fear of not fitting in will continue to force them into pretending to like the insulting, assaulting noise that they listen to... (hip hop?) Well I won't plumb that particular cesspool to find the words to describe it. Still, there will always be a few people who long for loftier and more sublime musical ideals...and classical music will live on. <P>Rantfully,<P>Ben<P>(Even though I enjoyed writing this ridiculous bit of spite, I apologize if it offended anyone).<p>[This message has been edited by BenG (edited 03-16-2001).]

[hornplayer]

Hmmm...I must not have been in a good mood.

[~Leslie]

Goodness! With that kind of passion, you could write a entire Broadway production!<P>Horn player, instead of paying "lip service" to the industry, you could be woodshedding and finding the good notes on yr horn!<P>I know, look who's talking.

[hornplayer]

Maybe Ill try for the production.

[serge urtizberea]

-<p>[This message has been edited by serge urtizberea (edited 03-06-2001).]

[serge urtizberea]

-(error; see below)<p>[This message has been edited by serge urtizberea (edited 03-06-2001).]

[hornplayer]

Its my mood swings sorry,and BenG, couldnt agree more.<p>[This message has been edited by hornplayer (edited 03-06-2001).]

[serge urtizberea]

Hornplayer, BenG, you guys scare me.<P>I cannot tell how facetious your posts were--I guessing not very, since they were clearly thought-out and emotional--but there is definitely a lot of anger. While I empathize with a lot of what you're saying, these are the first posts I've read that actually troubled me.<P>Yes, pop and rap and r&b and their derivatives are not "good" music by our definition. There is increasing realization of the emptiness of the music even by those in the industry. I've 'observed' the situation here before, and while I think p.m. is not intelligent, it is not entirely worthy of such hateful thoughts. Please use restraint when I describe my thoughts here, as surely you must detest my ambivalence towards the issue.<P>The world today is far different than what it was half a century ago. The things you complain so bitterly about only truly developed over the past twenty years or so, as far as I'm concerned. The oversexification of the media, the obsession with glamor, money, style, etc. is a very obtrusive and evident thing. I dislike watching Entertainment Tonight as the next person, but I do not think our culture is as worthless as either of you do. Our culture, as all of human history has done, rewards the successful. That is the simple truth. It's the only reason people bother to strive for something, if you think about it. If there is no reward (money, fame, accomplishment...) at the end of it all, why would you bother?<BR>The desire to look nice, to have friends, to have sex, all that is clearly part of the lifestyle of the average teen. At the most formative and impressive age of their lives, these people want to fit in and examine their lives. They need things that will bond people: music, sex, 'extracurricular activities' like your despised pot and alcohol, etc. This is called socialization, and it is CRUCIAL to people in high school. Kids who aren't socialized are the kids who go shooting up high schools over and over and OVER. No matter what you want to say about the cancerous state of pop culture, the point remains that without part or all of it, teens would not respond like social people when they get older. If it takes Ricky Martin, MTV, 4:20s, protected sex, and clothes to allow kids to bond with others and relate to the world, so be it. Much better than the alternative, which is people who don't bother to find common interests, interact with others, develop relationships, and end up raping women, robbing stores, and shooting innocent people while they go about their lives loathing themselves.<P>Does it really matter if kids today like pop music? No. These kids are not going to grow up listening to their Christina Aguilera CDs when they're working every day and raising families. There are millions of teens out there right now who are smart, physically active, happy, sexy, and 'normalized' who do everything you guys complain about, including voting Democratic. The problems of society belong with those who don't try to relate to the world. Drug addicts, rapists, murderers... you think they were caused by popular culture? Hell no. They are the misfits of society, the people who could not look at popular culture or the world and enjoy it understanding that just because a celebrity is rich that THEY were not automatically excluded from that possibility, or that it even mattered to their lives whether a celebrity earned their status or not. These misfits did not know or bother to understand that as long as they could earn a decent paycheck, they could lead happy lives. There is no productive result to ranting about the star status of certain people. Go to class tomorrow and ask any of your peers if they think they will become the next Britney. Then ask if they care.<P>And BenG, your problem with the obsession of youth culture is understandable, but the truth is simpler still. Today's youth are tomorrow's consumers. They are the ones who dictate what will sell in ten years. They are the ones with disposable incomes, with the sense of what's cool or not. Why? Because a teenager's years are supposed to be the fun years and because when you're older, you don't have the time or energy to bother with what's cool. Older people work. They buy homes, cars, make dinner, raise kids, invest money, read newspapers.. Mundane activities like these are the realm of a mature, responsible world. If you want kids to act like this, when are they supposed to enjoy themselves the way they should if they are going to be properly socialized? When are the halcyon days in this situation?<P>Pissed off about image? Wondering why the media don't put unattractive people in front of the public? Because humans have a built-in desire for attractiveness. It demonstrates good genes, healthy bodies. This has been shown to be the case by behavioral scientists and biologists, and it has been demonstrated in cultures very different from ours. It's another facet of the whole "successful" thing I was talking about earlier. Mediocrity leads to failure and obliteration. Seeing sexy people encourages young people to emulate them and be as attractive as they can be. I'm sorry, but there is nothing wrong with that. It is something that continues for the duration of one's life, from the toothpaste used to brush plaque and bad breath away to the shampoo used to give hair a nice shine and smell to the clothes one chooses to wear. <P>Too much sex seen in the media? Maybe, but it serves many functions: it teaches people who don't get the birds-and-bees chat what sex is, shows what is considered sexy--and therefore attractive to others, and sells product. If you think seeing too much sex on tv has made sex 'boring', you need a better imagination, a better sex partner, or simply more sex. Boring to watch? Maybe. Boring to do? Uhh, no.<P>Pop music, which is just one of many parts that comprise pop culture, can be chalked up to a simple desire by the target population to socialize. There is no inherent intelligence to most pop, but its sociological importance is high. How many parties have you ever been to that don't play music? How many clubs or bars have you went to? How many movies have you enjoyed with p.m. on the soundtrack? Music engages people. It brings them together. It hardly creates anyone in its own image, though, unless they are incredibly suggestible. <P>I don't listen to much pop music at all, but I understand and appreciate its importance nonetheless as a cultural normalizer. The rants of the two of you give me impression that you aren't well-engaged with your peers, especially you, hp. It is a shame that you can't budge a bit on this issue and ty to enjoy p.m. and p. culture if only for the sake of meeting new people or engaging your immediate world. Depression is a bad thing; I've gone through it myself, and I know that it can't be dealt with alone. I hope you can seek help with it, hp. Your depression colored everything you wrote about, including your misinformed and ignorant take on Democrats. It may even prevent you from studying your Fr. horn properly, since you talk beleagueredly about your incapacity to play. Of course, I'm a faceless person to you, and I don't wish to meddle. I'm just positing here as a sympathizer. <P>If you hate the popular culture, avoid it. Read science and gardening magazines, take up woodworking, build model cars, write stories, express yourself creatively, hike, take horseback lessons, watch Discovery Channel, do anything that doesn't involve pop culture. You can avoid most of what pisses you off, and ignore the rest. Griping about the world is a lot less productive and healthy than focusing on what you do like. C'mon, guys, lighten up a little.<P><BR>

[treebeau]

Serge,<P> Very well said, sir! I admire the way you addressed these issues with such eloquence.<P>Regards,<BR>Tim B.<BR>

[Emster]

Sorry I haven't checked the board in a few days -- I wish I had before the subject "strayed." Back to the original topic at hand. I am a vocal performance student and have found that because there is no instrument to rely on, singing takes a bit of sheet music reading and a bit of ear training. However, once you learn about intervals and chords, it makes harmonizing without music easier. This is not to say that it isn't difficult, but a great deal of theory makes one a better musician, no matter what those of you who hated theory say. I am, sad to admit, the sicko who really likes it.

[audiogirl]

I never would have guessed that such a scholarly topic would evolve into an emotional rampage. Serge, you have a gift for delving into the why and wherefore.<P>Hornplayer,<P>I could fry you ala Leslie, but it looks like somebody in your environment has already done that. The mommy and the teacher in me have a few suggestions:<P>Take a cue from Jason the Joker. Read "The<BR>Outsiders." One of its major themes is tolerance, and discovering that most people have good and bad qualities alike.<P>Get yourself a copy of Ralph Waldo Emerson's essay titled "Self-Reliance." It is the nonconformist's bible.<P><BR>On a more cheerful note:<P><BR>Emster, here's my mental interval cheat sheet, just to make you laugh. I really have used these.<P>3rd: the first four notes to the theme from "The Quiet Man"<P>4th: the "ding dong ding" from the end of "Frere Jacques"<P>5th: The evil chant from the Witch's henchman in "The Wizard of Oz......"<P>Oh--ee--oh.......Yoh--ah<P>6th: the first two of the NBC chimes.<P>7th: don't have one. I just remember that it sounds like crap. You got one?<P>More later on the ear vs. sheet battle.

[Emster]

Audiogirl-<BR>Today is your lucky day. The first two notes of "Maria" from West Side Story is a 7th (do to ti). "The Eyes of Texas" or "Here Comes the Bride" also works well for a perfect fourth. Your perfect fifth cracks me up -- "Twinkle, Twinkle" always worked for me, but I like this one better. Thanks for the tips -- it's always great to get some more songs to help me with music dictation.