A Musical Poll

[Ernesto]

I will have to choose "B." Music is not in a state of decline now; rather music has been in a state of decline since the era Beethoven's soul fell from the earth. I feel that Beethoven is such a musical genius that he affects every genre of classical music. When one listens to, symphonies, concerti, and chamber music one is forced to compare the affect with the affect that Beethoven's composition gave one upon hearing the composition of the same genre. Because he stretched the limits of these genres beyond repair, we need to create new forms of musical expression. Music is one the arts of expression. Pop expresses that people don't care about the intricacies of music. It seems clear that no one wants to be bothered about the greatness of a whole movement being formed of only thirds and sixths, from the first movement of Brahms's fourth symphony, included is the apparent difficulty in noticing the different sections of sonata form are examples of how people get pushed away from classical instrumental music. On the other hand, it is a waste of time doing research on-line. If one has the desire and ambition to correct the plight of music, one will become a performer, composer, and to critic to have the position and ability to resurrect the greatest art of intimate expression explaining why certain musical atoms go together. In one's own community can one change the art of music? This is the real question, and how can it be done? How do you feel about my statements? There are gaps in my reasoning, but I am late for class!<p>[This message has been edited by Ernesto (edited 03-08-2001).]

[serge urtizberea]

I'm afraid I can't agree with you entirely, Ernesto. I think the classical music world expanded and improved after Beethoven, just in different aspects. There was the tendency of using brighter colorations and more brass in 19th cent. music, more grandoisity, etc. that sounded really nice coming from some composers. There was also the improvement of instruments, the bigger, better piano (unless you're a period p. lover) and the better tuning techniques. Finally, there was the development of recordable music, which changed our world for the better.<P>All this talk about JasonK confuses me as I have NO clue what he said or did wrong. Nevertehless, I enjoyed his presence and hopes he stays with us.

[Clare]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JasonK:<BR><B>Hey shos and the gang, <BR>I appreciate the comments and the suggestions, but this is who I am. Not to quivel with anyone, but for me personally, some of the "ranting" on the state of classical music, society and art has taken a negative tone and at times gotten out of hand. Much too, for me personally.<BR>We have plenty of other things in our actual lives to bring us down and for us to be serious about. This is a message board, not Juilliard....and if stray 5 line comments or banter caused this much anguish....well, then...actually, I don't know what that says.....but I am sure it says volumes. I bet you Beethoven laughed too, infact on some accounts, he was a huge practical joker at times.<BR>so there you go.....have fun guys, there is some interesting discussions going on here....but I, for one, am abstaining.<BR>Like the 70's rock band Kansas sang:<BR>Carry on my wayward son.......<BR>[This message has been edited by JasonK (edited 03-08-2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Don`t stay silent too long, Jason

[The Great Mazinga]

Just one question after reading these posts, "Where is the love, people?"<P>A lotta anger and negativism out there for people who are supposed to be enlightened.<P>that is my opinion, I could be wrong.

[provistbrahms]

<BR>I will agree with you to an extent where you are from does influence how people become but. Just the same the line must be drawn between what is good and what is bad. I mean come on! I will tell that I have evidence to support my opinion. Last year A paiting of Mary was placed in the New York art Museum with her breasts painted with Elephant dung! And the rap and the heavy meatal the profanity that I hear is just horrible. Now tell me if society is going up hill? Yes it is on some points but that is not the point what is on the line here is ethics, morals and what is acceptable. We have all been taught what is right from wrong. How about we employ it!<P>

[BenG]

Hey--an Omak man! (Great territory over there). Good post. We live in a country that allows freedom of expression and thank goodness for that. If this country were like Afghanistan we'd be forced to grow beards--and women would be completely cloaked in heavy cloth and not allowed to go to school. So I guess it's better to let a few attention-starved artists play with dung. That's better than having to watch ancient statues be destroyed.<P>That said, some people confuse being tolerant with being mute. If we see or hear something we don't like why not voice our objections? Is it just me or is there too much PC pressure on folks to keep quiet about controversial things that can be considered objectionable (Eminem and his ilk, for example) out of fear of being called intolerant or uncool. Sorry if I scare anyone off, but nope...I just don't like rap music. Yet I do like reading obnoxious opinions/dissing discourse/jestful jabber/rabid rantings/silly blather/pointed prattle--on either side of any issue. Mostly, I like discussing ideas pertaining to classical music. I HAVE seen a lot of love here--a love of the sublime as expressed CM. So keep those cards and letters rolling in folks. Don't evanesce and don't be afraid! That's my opinion, I don't think I'm wrong

[provistbrahms]

I will agree with you about voicing your opinion but it seems to me that the somethings like that with painting holy figures with elephant dung? That is just ridiculus these figures should recieve the best things that this world has to offer when honoring them. And that is just what I am doing is voicing my opinion that there is a right and a wrong, just like in life. If you have to paths that can both get you to the same point but one is better than the other wouldn't it make sense to take the path which is best! <P>

[The Great Mazinga]

Trust me, by now....WE KNOW that is your opinion...with a few posts around here, it is inescapable to figure what some peoples opinion is. Likewise, WE KNOW you don't think it is wrong ....wish we could ALL be as certain that our views were the correct ones....remember lack of tolerance is a double edged sword....without tolerance, the unmitigated power belongs to that who can take it. Meaning, that if people are not symapathetic towards your view and are stronger than you, they can treat you with equal contempt.<P>Live by the sword....I think you know the rest.

[audiogirl]

I, too, was offended by the elephant dung art. But then I heard that this guy uses a lot of elephant dung to render his art, that it was pretty standard for him to use it. Correct me if I'm wrong. If it was what was available in his environment, then it doesn't seem so bad, to me.<P>audiogirl

[BenG]

Originally posted by The Great Mazinga:<BR>[B]Trust me, by now....WE KNOW that is your opinion...with a few posts around here, it is inescapable to figure what some peoples opinion is<BR>------------<BR>Mazinga--you're painting with too broad a brush here. No need to get pejorative here. Look at my post. I said an artist has the right to paint controversial paintings with dung. I have a right not to like what they do. A person who voices a strongly-held opinion is not necessarily intolerant. Example: Brahmsian doesn't like 'The Rite of Spring.' I respect his right to that opinion, but I won't let that stop me from making an impassioned plea about the virtues of Stravinsky's work. He made some counterpoints to my arguments. I still like and respect Brahmsian (especially since we agree on the greatness of Brahms!) That's what these boards are for, right? To express opinions. I re-read some of my posts and I'll admit I can be long winded, heavy handed and verbose...but intolerant? Nah.<P>Let's put away the swords and talk about the music. Deal?<P>-B

[The Great Mazinga]

That is fine with me....art as some of the pieces you have described are usually undertaken for publicity, shock or desperate reasons...they are curiosity shows that are forgotten as soon as they are found....Eninem will probably be the next once his tired rants get passe and old. Don't sweat the small stuff, talent and art will always endure.<P>Remember, hindsight is always much clearer, the ages past seem like the peak of culture, only because a infanticimal amount comes down to us years later, allot of the other surpuflous art is lost in the years.....I would be shocked if Snoop Dog is remembered 250 years from now.<P>So, it's not all that bad...just depends on were you focus.<P>It's my opinion, and I could always be wrong....like everyone else.<P>Pax - Keep it Surreal

[Brahmsian]

why are people doing this for shock and other reasons? Are they that devoid of attention that they need to offend people? I'm sorry, but I don't see how logically that expressing yourself includes everything that your brain can perversely think of.

[BenG]

Brahmsian, I have studied a bit of art history and the list of artists who gained success through notoriety is legion. Jacque Louis David shocked many with his unmannered realism. Ingres shocked many with some of the the stuff he painted (Turkish Baths, for example). Delacroix shocked with his flamboyance. Manet and the Impressionists caused shock and scandal and eventually gained great fame. Then it was the post-Impressionists, Dadaism, Cubists...Salvador Dali...on and on to the abstract expressionists and pop art. Then when it seemed it was not longer possible to get noticed for originality, we got the conceptual artists...which included one chap who sat in a tub filled with animal entrails for 24 hours. I know, it got ridiculous, but in a world where it seems that everything that can be done has been done, the ability to shock and create controversy has become a valued goal. Perhaps music will also meet a similar fate when every note available to the ear has been played in every conceivable combination by every conceivable instrument. Then they'll need to play in the nude or standing on their heads, I don't know. I do know that there is still some wonderful art being created, but it gets drowned out by the sensational. If the media and those offended by the art didn't make a big fuss about it (which is what the artists are after) believe me...it would fade away in a hurry.<P>--Ben<P>P.S.<BR>Ok, why don't you like Bruckner? I haven't heard much of his stuff, but I'm interested him now--especially since I'm starting to appreciate Mahler. (Perhaps you could post your reply on the Mahler thread). Did you hear that story of Beethoven's grave being unearthed so they could study his skull? (phrenology purposes I think). Bruckner himself was there and he boldly picked up Ludwig's skull. He made some sort of exclamation. I forgot what he said, though.

[The Great Mazinga]

I think that many people do it for the the 15 min. of fame, hoping that the absurd will lead to a longer lasting fame. And some people just like to offend others. Everything needs to be taken in context....at one time Galileo was shocking.<P>Others are just desperate for attention for personal reasons....didn't like a nun or priest in school, so let's do an offensive picture (ohhh, don't we feel better now). Can never tell where someone is coming from.<P>Dadaism had a political movement and a social thought behind it...the art looks odd, but when you tie it in to the social/political/economic context of Weimar Germany, you begin to realize what they were saying....<P>Some people, however, have done it and will always do it half baked.....all shock and no reason.<P>For every fame monger out there, there are many other pieces that have beauty and honesty to them....there is always going to be a section of society that runs contrary for the sake of being so.

[shostakovich]

Although this is not Rembrandt.com, I enjoy seeing the visual arts mentioned. There are many similar problems of music and art. Much of both are vacuous. What upsets me is that some critics, who should be protesting, embrace the empty offerings in the name of originality, and often ride to notoriety along with what they push. In another field, they might be called pimps. I do have names in mind, but won't post them publicly.<BR> <BR>I will mention one piece of "music" by John Cage. It's called 4' 23", or the "Silent Sonata". It consists of a pianist sitting and closing the keyboard for a specified length of time. Then, when the "movement" is finished, exposing the keys again. Of course, not a note is played. The "music", supposedly is the ambient sound made by the onlookers. Believe it or not, it has been "perfomed". Thank God, not recorded. Do NOT look for it in your local music store.<BR>Shos

[audiogirl]

Get outta town! Really? (I know you're not kidding.) As always, you have educated me and made me laugh. Thanks.

[The Great Mazinga]

That is akin to the old blank canvass being a painting of a polar bear in a snow storm....some people will believe anything..<P>Like Andy Warhol once said," it got to the point where the art was irrelevant, they only wanted to see me. I could hold an exhibition with blank walls."

[provistbrahms]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Great Mazinga:<BR><B>Trust me, by now....WE KNOW that is your opinion...with a few posts around here, it is inescapable to figure what some peoples opinion is. Likewise, WE KNOW you don't think it is wrong ....wish we could ALL be as certain that our views were the correct ones....remember lack of tolerance is a double edged sword....without tolerance, the unmitigated power belongs to that who can take it. Meaning, that if people are not symapathetic towards your view and are stronger than you, they can treat you with equal contempt.<P>Live by the sword....I think you know the rest.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>True, I have subsantial evidence to support my views. My question to you is can you prove me wrong? Because all you have been able to do is attack how I have presented my opinion. <p>[This message has been edited by provistbrahms (edited 03-15-2001).]

[The Great Mazinga]

We may have touched on the central nerve going on here....The rest of us only know how you have presented your opinion. Most of the message is in the delivery. Right now, you are just a post....this is the medium...and the only exposure. I am sure I could easily refute every point and do a "Crossfire" point and counterpoint with you. And the way you have been delivering your opinion is, to me at least, with a omniscient sting of overbearnace at times...<P>Some quotes I have come to find true:<P>"Beware the person of one book." - St. Thomas Acquianas <P>"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle<P>"It is unbecoming for individuals to utter maxims." - Aristotle<P>Not saying that you have to accept my way of thinking...question to you, Am I immoral for not thinking the way you do?<P>and this isn't an attack, but we would all be cattle if you did not expect some retort from some of those comments.<BR>

[provistbrahms]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Great Mazinga:<BR><B>We may have touched on the central nerve going on here....The rest of us only know how you have presented your opinion. Most of the message is in the delivery. Right now, you are just a post....this is the medium...and the only exposure. I am sure I could easily refute every point and do a "Crossfire" point and counterpoint with you. And the way you have been delivering your opinion is, to me at least, with a omniscient sting of overbearnace at times...<P>Some quotes I have come to find true:<P>"Beware the person of one book." - St. Thomas Acquianas <P>"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle<P>"It is unbecoming for individuals to utter maxims." - Aristotle<P>Not saying that you have to accept my way of thinking...question to you, Am I immoral for not thinking the way you do?<P>and this isn't an attack, but we would all be cattle if you did not expect some retort from some of those comments.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree with you on those quotes from above. You must always listen to everybody around you to make a true statement. For you can get the more of the story this way. and be able to find a plan to fix the problem more easily. Please tell me it you have any evidence to prove me wrong. I have a question of somewhat of a different nature. Do you consider music more of the mind or of the heart? Or having to deal with both areas. <P>