Art of Convesrion

[provistbrahms]

It is difficult to ask somebody who follows the crowd to listen to other types of music. Especially classical. I always get critizized one way or another about listening to classical music. They encourage me to "Open my mind to their type of music." When in truth some of them just don't wish to expand what they listen to. And that is just what I am talking about. In my opinion it is peer pressure that is keeping them from listening to classical music. And that is a sad thing indeed. That is why I believe that if a person can be shown what true wonders lie in classical music they will understand. I am not saying that modern music is bad. But some of it can go over the line of what is acceptable. The mind of those who are ruled by peer pressure will just do what the crowd does, not because they refuse to think for themselves but because they think that they won't be accepted in the world around them. This now brings me to the point. If you can show them that it is ok to listen to classical music and break the bonds of peer pressure it will cause them to think for themselves. What is right and what is wrong when the crowd chooses to go into a direction that could cause great strife for those who follow. Which brings me to the opinion that there is right and wrong in music. There is a line that must be drawn between what is acceptable and what isn't. Most people will think that I am talking of classical that it is the one and only. True I think it the best of all the types of music. There are good types of modern music that people enjoy and love just like I love classical music. I am not saying that listening to this type of music is bad. I am just saying that there is a line that must be drawn between what acceptable and what is not. Unfortunately classical music isn't that popular with today's teenage society. With this fact in mind I believe that something must be done to fix what downgrading problems are left in society. If these downgrading problems are not taken care of soon who knows what will happen. It could get worse and it will if something is not done immediately to stop it. Evil has found a way to creep into the world of music. It is my opinion and belief that it must be eradicated before it presents a more difficult problem in the next generation. <p>[This message has been edited by provistbrahms (edited 03-16-2001).]

[Brahmsian]

Yes, Yes, Yes. Provistbrahms seems to know exactly what I mean.

[provistbrahms]

Thank you Brahmsian for your support on this matter. <P>

[BenG]

I admire your effort in trying to get people interested in classical music and loftier ideals in general. I also think you're on the right track in starting with works like "The Planets." Brahms might be too advanced or subtle for the novice ear. <P>Years ago, I attended a high school in West Texas. The kids there liked either rock, country, or Spanish music. No room for classical music, and as far as I could tell, I was the ONLY one in the entire school who liked it. I didn't even try to convert others. So my hat is off to you guys for trying. Keep going!

[provistbrahms]

I agree with you about Brahms being to complex for the novice ear. You must aquire the ear as to know what to listen for in the complexity of Brahms.

[audiogirl]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by provistbrahms:<BR><B> It is a matter of winning over the heart. Don't get me wrong I believe also that winning over the mind is a key factor as well. But sometimes the heart can overrule the mind. And that is just what I am talking about. For example, I helped a freind by just exposing them to Gustav Holst the Planets. Jupiter the bringer of joy. It made my freind happy and it showed her the feeling and caused her to explore the world of classical music more fully. I was successfull for she asked my help and I did and now she is listening to Mozart, and Vivaldi.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

[audiogirl]

Oops! I was just getting ready to respond. Your heart is in the right place, provistbrahms. You want expose people to things you love. <P>Perhaps it is just because we communicate solely through written word, and not intentional, but your posts have a snobbish tone, to be honest. You may not intend this, but it almost sounds like you think of yourself as the lofty, educated, benevolent one bringing knowledge to the lowly masses for their benefit. I don't know you at all, but from what I can read, it seems this way.<BR>My point is that your intentions may be good, but if it seems like you're looking down on people who don't agree with you, they're not going to want to listen to what you have to say. I am not meaning to insult you--just to point out that your story sounds a little holier-than-thou.<P>It's probably pretty common. I think whether we admit it or not, we tend to judge other people by the music they listen to. If those same people pick up on that, it's gonna be hard to get them to listen to what we like.<P>Audiogirl

[Guest]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by audiogirl:<BR><B>Oops! I was just getting ready to respond. Your heart is in the right place, provistbrahms. You want expose people to things you love. <P>Perhaps it is just because we communicate solely through written word, and not intentional, but your posts have a snobbish tone, to be honest. You may not intend this, but it almost sounds like you think of yourself as the lofty, educated, benevolent one bringing knowledge to the lowly masses for their benefit. I don't know you at all, but from what I can read, it seems this way.<BR>My point is that your intentions may be good, but if it seems like you're looking down on people who don't agree with you, they're not going to want to listen to what you have to say. I am not meaning to insult you--just to point out that your story sounds a little holier-than-thou.<P>It's probably pretty common. I think whether we admit it or not, we tend to judge other people by the music they listen to. If those same people pick up on that, it's gonna be hard to get them to listen to what we like.<P>Audiogirl</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dear Audiogirl<BR> I don't consider myself better than anybody else. I have high morales. I don't consider myself in the way that you describe me. I think that society is going down hill in morales and in music. Look around you you know that it is true! The profanity in the worst of the modern music. They can keep what is good. That is what I am trying to convince them of and to get rid of their music of profanity. This is where opinion is invalid. It is at

[provistbrahms]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by provistbrahms:<BR>[B] Dear Audiogirl<BR> Please forgive me for not completin my last entry. I don't consider myself any better than anybody else I am just trying to make the world a better place by exposing people who wish to listen to classical music. This is what I feel I must do and I enjoy doing it. All the story was about was the victory of another person being able to enjoy all of what classical music has to offer. it is more of a victory for my freind than it is for me. I am sorry for acting so snobbish. if that is the way you so put it. could you please specify how I have been snobbish. Because franckly I don't think that I have been snobbish at all. I have the right to make my opinions and that is the way I have put them and you have to admit that not all of my posts have been snobbish. A large percentage of the have been supportive. Check the one on Hornplayer's very long and winded speech you would be surprised. I do think that you have mistaken me.

[The Great Mazinga]

The postings are running amuck...I think something is wrong with the system.....but I just want to say what my perceptions are....<P>Honestly, some people, whether they intend to or not, are coming off a bit confrontational, judgemental, or snobby. I do not want to point fingers, but I am starting to get the sense that others are having similiar takes......(audiogirl)<P>It may be a casualty of the mode of expression or some misconstruyed meaning....but a number of the posts in the last weeks have come off negative.<P>My Opinion, I could be wrong

[audiogirl]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by provistbrahms:<BR> could you please specify how I have been snobbish. Because franckly I don't think that I have been snobbish at all. I have the right to make my opinions and that is the way I have put them and you have to admit that not all of my posts have been snobbish. <P>Dear Provistbrahms,<P>You contradicted yourself in that short passage, which may be proof that there is a discrepancy in what you intend to express and what others think you are expressing. Perception is reality, and some others have understood you, or misunderstood you, as I have. The written word is so often less clear than face-to-face conversation. <P>I started this mess, so I'll finish it. My point, which I should have stated more clearly, (I'll admit) was that if others see you this way, or see classical music lovers in this way, which tends to be the stereotype, it will be much harder to convince them to give what you like a whirl.<BR>It's been said that it takes one to know one. If I didn't have some undesirable (snooty) characteristics myself, I probably wouldn't perceive it so quickly in others. I'm still working on it.<P>On a completely different note, profanity is hardly ever useful anywhere, unless the intention is to offend or characterize. I once heard Will Smith say that his grandmother told him that profanity was the lazy way of communicating, or something to that effect. I tend to agree.<P>I refer you to the more positive approach. What are we going to do about it?<P>Audiogirl

[provistbrahms]

[Q. <P>Dear Provistbrahms,<P>You contradicted yourself in that short passage, which may be proof that there is a discrepancy in what you intend to express and what others think you are expressing. Perception is reality, and some others have understood you, or misunderstood you, as I have. The written word is so often less clear than face-to-face conversation. <P>I started this mess, so I'll finish it. My point, which I should have stated more clearly, (I'll admit) was that if others see you this way, or see classical music lovers in this way, which tends to be the stereotype, it will be much harder to convince them to give what you like a whirl.<BR>It's been said that it takes one to know one. If I didn't have some undesirable (snooty) characteristics myself, I probably wouldn't perceive it so quickly in others. I'm still working on it.<P>On a completely different note, profanity is hardly ever useful anywhere, unless the intention is to offend or characterize. I once heard Will Smith say that his grandmother told him that profanity was the lazy way of communicating, or something to that effect. I tend to agree.<P>I refer you to the more positive approach. What are we going to do about it?<P>Audiogirl[/B][/QUOTE]<P>This is far from over. You attacked me first. I am just commenting on what you have said in return and this will end our little debate. I don't wish to make an enemy of you but let me try to explain myself a little further. I am just defending myself from those who critizized me. I will not just stand and let them tell me that they are right and believe it! But I still believe that you aren't trying to look at it from my point of view. I see where what I have said will turn people off. They turned me off first by saying that what I was listening to was wrong. So I ask them why they think it is wrong. And like I said at the beginging of this post is the answers that I mostly get. That it mainly isn't popular. When I get into a debate I then defend classical music by asking them if they think that their music is equal to the calibur of the Great Composers. And another thing. I am a Christian and I don't like profanity period end of story it is wrong. And our parents have taught us not to say it. But through punishment we learn not to say it. Therefore isn't it right not to say it if society says that it is wrong? This just goes to show how society is going downhill by not drawing the line between what is acceptable and what is not. And like you said if it isn't usefull anywhere and it is a lazy language. Since those who speak it regualarly only have a 10 word vocabulary. I am not saying that their style of music is wrong I am just trying to tell them that there is a better music out there and that they should respect it and give it its proper place just like I acknowledge theirs and give it its proper place. And to further comment on how to do it. It is a sacrifice that must be made. To get them to open up one must accept their music and get to know them through it, acknowledge and this will open them up to it. By you listening to theirs isn't it plausable that in return for you listening to theirs that they should listen to yours? I think this is a prime directive to work for. You can still appreciate and acknowledge that their music exists and still prefer classical music. <BR>

[provistbrahms]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Great Mazinga:<BR><B>The postings are running amuck...I think something is wrong with the system.....but I just want to say what my perceptions are....<P>Honestly, some people, whether they intend to or not, are coming off a bit confrontational, judgemental, or snobby. I do not want to point fingers, but I am starting to get the sense that others are having similiar takes......(audiogirl)<P>It may be a casualty of the mode of expression or some misconstruyed meaning....but a number of the posts in the last weeks have come off negative.<P>My Opinion, I could be wrong</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Why do you think that my post is nobby? If you read one up I have explained myelf to audiogirl. I agree with you that my own may sound a little negative because it is to those who don't wish to listen to what I have to say but expect me to listen and believe that they are right and I am wrong.<BR>

[Brahmsian]

Why does provistbrahms seem patronizing? I think these recent posts have not been very fair to him. Has anyone proven provistbrahms wrong? Listen to what he is saying, he is encouraging all of you to convert people to classical music if it is humanly possible for you to do so. Just sitting back and watching the slaughter accomplishes nothing. I would rather have people wearing a t-shirt that says i love Bruckner then Korn or some other sub-par group. I don't even like Bruckner! The point is that he is trying to start a trend that i am also a part of. Yes, if he sounds snobbish to other people it might turn them off. But nobody is perfect and you have to respect how on fire he is. If it takes diplomacy, or fire in the face, whatever it takes I will try to do.

[audiogirl]

Provistbrahms.......<P>Rest assured that you have not made an enemy. I hit you over the head when what I meant to do was maybe tap you on the shoulder. I will and do apologize for my harshness.<P>But, saying that something is far from over, and in the same sentence that it will end, is pretty much contradictory, too. <P>My perception remains the same. Perhaps it is the use of absolutes that has thrown me off: "people will not know what music is best and what is bad", "the right and wrong way to do things," etc. To speak in the language of absolutes is to invite criticism around here. I don't care much for broad, sweeping statements. I get the feeling that a lot of others don't either.<P>I encourage you to stick to your moral guns.<BR>And you must speak out when you find something objectionable----that is how change is brought about. Standards are necessary. But I have seen a phenomenon in which Christians, insisting on absolutes, have written themselves out of their own job descriptions, so to speak. I think one day you will find that black and white are uncomfortable, and that you will be able to see some lovely grays without compromising your moral or musical integrity.<P>I have no quarrel with either of your causes. Your H.S. experience sounds hauntingly similar to mine.<P>This is not a religious forum. E-mail me if you want. I would be more than happy to discuss things of that nature. And I promise not to get mean.<p>[This message has been edited by audiogirl (edited 03-15-2001).]

[The Great Mazinga]

I think that audiogirl pretty much stated it for me....I have a similiar perception.<P>I think the reputation or perception stems from comments like "I am right" or "comments like I see nothing of value" not exact quotes, but the general gist.<P>I question myself and my views all the time, not to give in to peer pressure, but just to see if the logic holds up.....<P>I think for me personally, I don't get worked up about rap, Britney Spears, Eminem, or N'Sync, because when I was your age, it was the New Kids on the Block, Samantha Fox, and Eazy E that were the paragons of cultural demise.....seen them lately?<P>I don't even want to get into that whole Alice Cooper thing when my cousins were growing up...he was the devil incarnate, now he is in Pro/Ams at Pebble Beach with Tiger Woods.....things change.

[Joe Cassara]

You know... For me, part of the love affair I have with music is the exploration. Someone will introduce me to a new tune (classical, pop, rock, whatever!) or genre, and I'll get a first impression. Just like meeting people. If I like it, super. If it strokes me the wrong way, I'll ask her to turn it off (and, in some cases, ask her to leave). But it's still in my brain, sitting there in the green room of ideas and taste, patiently waiting for its chance once again.<P>Did I like classical music at first blush? No! And I would have liked it even less had those around me constantly harassed me about it. "Get off my back already, you snob, before I smack you with my DEVO CD collection." When I heard Beethoven's 9th with those powerful strings at the beginning -- whew! I was finally hooked.<P>I'm not a crusader. My buddies won't appreciate any kind of music by banging it into them. They have to bring it upon themselves to look into a new genre or performer after I introduce them to it. And if they don't, it's their loss, not mine. We can only lead them to the door, we can't make them blah blah blah.<P>So, hey, enjoy the music and explore for yourselves. Music is very personal; and to a musician, it's even a religious experience. I make it a point to spritz some fuel on someone else's interest, but not pour gas all over the coals. If I do that, I just might get my butt burned.<P>Joe Cassara<BR>He With The 2 Cents To Share<BR>(Brother, can you spare a dime?)

[Peter]

Sam Fox? A paragon of cultural demise? No, sir! This beautiful creature may have the IQ of a lobotomized fly, but she remains a fine work of art - a 1980s British institution, when the only female more admired among young men was Margaret Thatcher(!). Sam may not have been an ideal symbol of womanly virtuousness, but she helped many a boy sleep with a smile on his face in those far off days.

[The Great Mazinga]

Peter,<P>I agree, I had three posters myself.....but when and my friends and I used oggle MTV to her video "Touch Me", our folks thought that the song was scandalous and we were in depths of decline...<P>btw, what's up with her now.....Sam, we miss you! Big fan, BIG FAN!

[The Great Mazinga]

oops, sorry, just temporarily got distracted about the divine Ms. Fox and double posted....scuse me<p>[This message has been edited by The Great Mazinga (edited 03-14-2001).]