Art of Convesrion

[The Great Mazinga]

very true, 1984 is still alive and well....perhaps some have not read it yet.<P>Mortimer, you are Jedi-like in your wisdom.<P>Do or do not, there is not try.

[Harry Potter]

"Vice, virtue, it's best not to be too moral - you cheat yourself out of too much life. Aim above morality." -- Harold and Maude

[Brahmsian]

Listen to the lyrics of some of the modern singers and you will see why. Look at the musicallity of some and you will see why.

[The Great Mazinga]

Custos morum,<P>ad gloriam, ad captandum vulgus<BR>

[provistbrahms]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by audiogirl:<BR><B>Provistbrahms.......<P>Rest assured that you have not made an enemy. I hit you over the head when what I meant to do was maybe tap you on the shoulder. I will and do apologize for my harshness.<P>But, saying that something is far from over, and in the same sentence that it will end, is pretty much contradictory, too. <P>My perception remains the same. Perhaps it is the use of absolutes that has thrown me off: "people will not know what music is best and what is bad", "the right and wrong way to do things," etc. To speak in the language of absolutes is to invite criticism around here. I don't care much for broad, sweeping statements. I get the feeling that a lot of others don't either.<P>I encourage you to stick to your moral guns.<BR>And you must speak out when you find something objectionable----that is how change is brought about. Standards are necessary. But I have seen a phenomenon in which Christians, insisting on absolutes, have written themselves out of their own job descriptions, so to speak. I think one day you will find that black and white are uncomfortable, and that you will be able to see some lovely grays without compromising your moral or musical integrity.<P>I have no quarrel with either of your causes. Your H.S. experience sounds hauntingly similar to mine.<P>This is not a religious forum. E-mail me if you want. I would be more than happy to discuss things of that nature. And I promise not to get mean.<P>[This message has been edited by audiogirl (edited 03-15-2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I know that this isn't a religious forum it is just where I get my point of view on profanity that is all. What grade of school are you in? It may sound as if I think that I am a know it all but I don't want it to be that way I am just explaing what I have to put up with here and that is how I respond to those who don't have open minds. I will stick to my moral guns. I do see the colors know. I see many colors that are good but I see many that are bad as well and make the image of music look bad. <BR>

[audiogirl]

Your point of view is valid.

[audiogirl]

I'm not finished, yet. It is clear to me that there has been some serious miscommunication on this topic. I can tell from reading the writing on this board that most of the people who post have a fair amount of formal education. Some of our high school friends aren't old enough to have done that yet, evidenced by some of the lack of adherence to the rules of grammar and punctuation. Some of us, it appears, don't have the vocabulary to make others understand us as we would like to be understood. Like it or not, this interferes with communication.<P>Someone who responds with "good colors and bad colors" clearly does not demonstrate understanding of what is meant by the term "black and white." "Black and white" refers to NOT seeing things as good or bad, but placing things along a continuum, or knowing that some things are neither here nor there. If you understand this concept, kiddo, you have not communicated it adequately.....and that is not your fault.<P>Saying that this is not a religious forum is not a put-down. It is an invitation to move that topic to another and more appropriate place.<P>When you post your opinion about something, you can't post your ego with it. You can't take things personally. You just might get creamed.<P>It is also clear that we have some teenagers with a passion, and that they are trying to do something about what they see as wrong. That is commendable.<P>Writing skills improve with work and several years of college professors ripping your term papers to shreds. I know. It is my personal observation that the widest discrepancy around here is that some of us are VERY skillful at using the English language, and some of us don't yet have the vocabulary and usage skills to communicate our feelings adequately, solely through the written word.<P>I will now take Old Shos' advice and start talkin' about the music.<P><p>[This message has been edited by audiogirl (edited 03-15-2001).]

[The Great Mazinga]

ditto...verbum sapienti sat est<P>nosce te ipsum<P>Pax<P>

[Harry Potter]

"So much the worse for the wood that discovers it's a violin and to hell with the headless who cavil about something they know nothing about"<P>-- Jean Nicholas Joseph Arthur Rimbaud

[EJA_2]

Here is an Alexander Pope poem quoted from memory, so it may not be perfect:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally written by Alexander Pope:<BR><B>Vice is a monster of so frightful mien<BR>As to be hated needs but to be seen,<BR>Yet seen to oft,<BR>Familiar with her face,<BR>We first endure,<BR>Then pity,<BR>Then embrace.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think this poem is highly relevant to the present discussion. It expounds on the subject of influence. Here is another, even better:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally written by King Solomon:<BR><B>He who walks with wise men shall be wise,<BR>But a companion of fools will be destroyed.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Very few honest people will argue that they are affected by their associations. The more time you spend with someone, the more you act like them. The degree of influence varies by individual, and is greater at certain phases of life, but the relationship between influence and conduct is universal. I daresay that this phenomenon extends to the realm of music, from the perspective of cause as well as effect. In other words, music influences a person, and one's music is indicative of the influences upon them. I think everyone here can draw the obvious conclusions. I also think that everyone -- on both sides of the issue -- will think that I have made their point, albeit somewhat badly. I will give my opinion on the reason for that at another time. <P> -- EJA<p>[This message has been edited by EJA (edited 03-15-2001).]

[Brahmsian]

I defended hornplayer once before, and now I must defend provistbrahms. Audiogirl, your attacks about contradicting passages, bad grammar or any other things are of little importance to the nature of what is being said. I will agree that good grammar is important but one grammar mistake takes sentences, and a musical view is overlooked in the process. I should be writing musical posts, but I cannot just sit and watch someone with good ideas being slaughtered by political rhetoric.

[Peter]

I don`t wish to make an enemy of you, Audiogirl, but for the sake of balance, your last post is not free from grammatical errors.

[audiogirl]

Peter, I welcome your constructive criticism. It makes me a better writer.

[Peter]

Audiogirl, that was not the only blemish! Maybe I am skilfull at my use of "indirect quotation marks", but I say: "I`m not." Stay after class, & write fifty lines! <P><BR>From the home of the English language,<BR>Pedantic Pete

[audiogirl]

When what is meant to be an observation is perceived as an attack, I am the snob and the bad writer. I didn't mean that I am good writer. I meant that miscommunication is our worst enemy, and it causes the disagreements.

[provistbrahms]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by audiogirl:<BR><B>I'm not finished, yet. It is clear to me that there has been some serious miscommunication on this topic. I can tell from reading the writing on this board that most of the people who post have a fair amount of formal education. Some of our high school friends aren't old enough to have done that yet, evidenced by some of the lack of adherence to the rules of grammar and punctuation. Some of us, it appears, don't have the vocabulary to make others understand us as we would like to be understood. Like it or not, this interferes with communication.<P>Someone who responds with "good colors and bad colors" clearly does not demonstrate understanding of what is meant by the term "black and white." "Black and white" refers to NOT seeing things as good or bad, but placing things along a continuum, or knowing that some things are neither here nor there. If you understand this concept, kiddo, you have not communicated it adequately.....and that is not your fault.<P>Saying that this is not a religious forum is not a put-down. It is an invitation to move that topic to another and more appropriate place.<P>When you post your opinion about something, you can't post your ego with it. You can't take things personally. You just might get creamed.<P>It is also clear that we have some teenagers with a passion, and that they are trying to do something about what they see as wrong. That is commendable.<P>Writing skills improve with work and several years of college professors ripping your term papers to shreds. I know. It is my personal observation that the widest discrepancy around here is that some of us are VERY skillful at using the English language, and some of us don't yet have the vocabulary and usage skills to communicate our feelings adequately, solely through the written word.<P>I will now take Old Shos' advice and start talkin' about the music.<P>I am not putting out my ego. I may have some bad spelling errors but what does that attone for? HOW dare you say that I don't have a decent eduacation. I do. IF you want to brush up against me. I know that you didn't mean to be mean. But don't contradict yourself. You are saying that you don't wish to be mean that I don't have an enemy but what is this that is written above? It seems to me that you are expressing that only those with "a higher quality eduacation" can write here and be heard. Words of evil can bring the chill of the North Wind. But words of good can bring hope and warmth to the heart, and good senseto the mind. Well I can see that you yourself have seemed to have posted your ego and gotten creamed. I don't post my ego I just post my opinion and am willing to defend it until somebody can prove me wrong. Quit trying to attack me personally, for that is just what you are trying to prove to me is that I am what you say. And I know that I am not! Talk some music and please provide me with evidence that proves my opinion wrong if you can. It would be most helpful in adjusting my opinion properly! <P>[This message has been edited by audiogirl (edited 03-15-2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

[provistbrahms]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by audiogirl:<BR>[B]I'm not finished, yet. It is clear to me that there has been some serious miscommunication on this topic. I can tell from reading the writing on this board that most of the people who post have a fair amount of formal education. Some of our high school friends aren't old enough to have done that yet, evidenced by some of the lack of adherence to the rules of grammar and punctuation. Some of us, it appears, don't have the vocabulary to make others understand us as we would like to be understood. Like it or not, this interferes with communication.<P>Someone who responds with "good colors and bad colors" clearly does not demonstrate understanding of what is meant by the term "black and white." "Black and white" refers to NOT seeing things as good or bad, but placing things along a continuum, or knowing that some things are neither here nor there. If you understand this concept, kiddo, you have not communicated it adequately.....and that is not your fault.<P>It seems to me that you think that you have to supeior mind here. Well you don't know everything! yes we may not have been able to come up with all of the ways of wording as you have. But you yourself aren't capable of understanding all types of writing. And the way people put them. IF you think that I am a simpleton let me tell you. You are very wrong to think that. You know what that kind of sounds like arrogance to me.

[provistbrahms]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by provistbrahms:<BR>[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by audiogirl:<BR>[B]I'm not finished, yet. It is clear to me that there has been some serious miscommunication on this topic. I can tell from reading the writing on this board that most of the people who post have a fair amount of formal education. Some of our high school friends aren't old enough to have done that yet, evidenced by some of the lack of adherence to the rules of grammar and punctuation. Some of us, it appears, don't have the vocabulary to make others understand us as we would like to be understood. Like it or not, this interferes with communication.<P>Someone who responds with "good colors and bad colors" clearly does not demonstrate understanding of what is meant by the term "black and white." "Black and white" refers to NOT seeing things as good or bad, but placing things along a continuum, or knowing that some things are neither here nor there. If you understand this concept, kiddo, you have not communicated it adequately.....and that is not your fault.<P>It seems to me that you think that you have to supeior mind here. Well you don't know everything! yes we may not have been able to come up with all of the ways of wording as you have. But you yourself aren't capable of understanding all types of writing. And the way people put them. IF you think that I am a simpleton let me tell you. You are very wrong to think that. Another thing someone who keeps responding in a manner as you do sounds like arrogance to me. But I could be wrong. If I am so wrong in my opinions than please provide me with evidence. Either way you are attacking me personally, whether you know it or not. And I don't like that. Therefore since you don't know me it sounds like to me that you are passing judgement on me. Does that give me the right to judge you? No because I know that I have no right to judge anyone without truly knowing who they are. As they say first immpressions can make a world of difference. That is true but to an extent. If you change the way that you do things and the way that you act it changes their point of view of you. You are right there is a lack of communication here. And it is not me. It is you attacking me personally about the way that I say things or express my opinion. All you had to say from the begining if you have such a great vocabulary and knowing of the English language was to say that I should reword it in a way that dosen't stir the pot. I don't wish to make an enemy of you I just wish to say that it would have been a logical soulution to the problem from the very beginning and I would have welcomed the help even though you might not have supported my opinions <P><p>[This message has been edited by provistbrahms (edited 03-16-2001).]

[provistbrahms]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EJA:<BR><B>Here is an Alexander Pope poem quoted from memory, so it may not be perfect:<BR>

Originally written by Alexander Pope:<BR>Vice is a monster of so frightful mien<BR>As to be hated needs but to be seen,<BR>Yet seen to oft,<BR>Familiar with her face,<BR>We first endure,<BR>Then pity,<BR>Then embrace.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think this poem is highly relevant to the present discussion. It expounds on the subject of influence. Here is another, even better:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally written by King Solomon:<BR><B>He who walks with wise men shall be wise,<BR>But a companion of fools will be destroyed.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Very few honest people will argue that they are affected by their associations. The more time you spend with someone, the more you act like them. The degree of influence varies by individual, and is greater at certain phases of life, but the relationship between influence and conduct is universal. I daresay that this phenomenon extends to the realm of music, from the perspective of cause as well as effect. In other words, music influences a person, and one's music is indicative of the influences upon them. I think everyone here can draw the obvious conclusions. I also think that everyone -- on both sides of the issue -- will think that I have made their point, albeit somewhat badly. I will give my opinion on the reason for that at another time. <P> -- EJA<P>[This message has been edited by EJA (edited 03-15-2001).]

<BR>I will not disagree with you on that one. Bravo on a very good post!<BR>

[audiogirl]

Peter, <BR>You guys are just mad 'cause you lost the war. How could I have forgotten about indirect quotation marks? Duh. Tell me, which is worse, improper use of quotation marks, or introducing a quote with a large intestine instead of a comma? <P>