Art of Convesrion

[EJA_2]

Provistbrahms,<BR> As you may know, I am to a great degree sympathetic with you views. However, I think it fitting to suggest that you take to heart some of the constructive criticism you have received. If you would peruse your posts with a critical eye toward grammar and spelling prior to submitting them, you would greatly enhance your apparent credibility. It may or may not be fair, but people judge you by the words you use and the skill with which you wield them. (I might also mention that they will give you more slack in speaking than in writing.) There are a multitude of reasons for this phenomenon. Your writing is a reflection of your personality, intellect, and even your morality. If you are lax in your observation of spelling or grammatical rules, you indicate that you are ignorant, stupid, or careless, none of which improves your reputation. Furthermore, it hampers your communication, and opens you up to <I>ad hominem</I> attacks, which are destructive and really fruitless for your cause. A word of advice: such attacks are best addressed by ignoring them. Responding in kind only heightens the animosity. I might add that I think that most of the criticism you have received here has been constructively oriented; not so much intended to destroy your position as to sober you up. <P> Another think that has been adressed is a certain attitude of arrogance that creeps into your writing at times. You're a young and spirited colt and sometimes you kick up your heels more than is becoming. You may be dead right, but being snobby or cocky about it doesn't help your position. You would be better served to assume an attitude of humility, and, by all means, abstain from the <I>ad hominem</I> yourself. <P> It's just a suspicion, but I have a feeling you post pretty impulsively. Take more time; stop, think, review what you have written; put yourself in the position of the recipients. A few well chosen words make a far greater impact than a discontinuous litany. You also might want to compose your posts in a word-processor that has spelling and grammar checking. A better idea would be to force yourself to study those dry and dull subjects like grammar, composition, and spelling, but the word-processor would be a thumb in the dike, shall we say. <P> Let me just state again, I say these things not to put you down, but to help you, and your cause. You have considerable ability to express yourself in writing, but you need years of polish to realize your potential. Hang in there. I wish you all the best.<P>Diddo, Brahmsian<P> -- EJA

[EJA_2]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peter:<BR><B>Audiogirl, that was not the only blemish! Maybe I am skilfull at my use of "indirect quotation marks", but I say: "I`m not." Stay after class, & write fifty lines! <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Peter,<BR> I just can't resist. Shouldn't the above read:<P>Audiogirl, that was not the only blemish! Maybe I am skilfull at my use of "indirect quotation marks," but I say: "I`m not." Stay after class, & write fifty lines! <P>And why do you use "`" instead of "'" in "I'm?" Just wondering if I remember correctly. . . <P> -- EJA<BR>

[provistbrahms]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EJA:<BR><B>Provistbrahms,<BR> As you may know, I am to a great degree sympathetic with you views. However, I think it fitting to suggest that you take to heart some of the constructive criticism you have received. If you would peruse your posts with a critical eye toward grammar and spelling prior to submitting them, you would greatly enhance your apparent credibility. It may or may not be fair, but people judge you by the words you use and the skill with which you wield them. (I might also mention that they will give you more slack in speaking than in writing.) There are a multitude of reasons for this phenomenon. Your writing is a reflection of your personality, intellect, and even your morality. If you are lax in your observation of spelling or grammatical rules, you indicate that you are ignorant, stupid, or careless, none of which improves your reputation. Furthermore, it hampers your communication, and opens you up to <I>ad hominem</I> attacks, which are destructive and really fruitless for your cause. A word of advice: such attacks are best addressed by ignoring them. Responding in kind only heightens the animosity. I might add that I think that most of the criticism you have received here has been constructively oriented; not so much intended to destroy your position as to sober you up. <P> Another think that has been adressed is a certain attitude of arrogance that creeps into your writing at times. You're a young and spirited colt and sometimes you kick up your heels more than is becoming. You may be dead right, but being snobby or cocky about it doesn't help your position. You would be better served to assume an attitude of humility, and, by all means, abstain from the <I>ad hominem</I> yourself. <P> It's just a suspicion, but I have a feeling you post pretty impulsively. Take more time; stop, think, review what you have written; put yourself in the position of the recipients. A few well chosen words make a far greater impact than a discontinuous litany. You also might want to compose your posts in a word-processor that has spelling and grammar checking. A better idea would be to force yourself to study those dry and dull subjects like grammar, composition, and spelling, but the word-processor would be a thumb in the dike, shall we say. <P> Let me just state again, I say these things not to put you down, but to help you, and your cause. You have considerable ability to express yourself in writing, but you need years of polish to realize your potential. Hang in there. I wish you all the best.<P>Diddo, Brahmsian<P> -- EJA</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I thank you for the advice from you EJA. And you are right I should have ignored it right from the begining. I have edited my first post at least three times. So as not to be so shall we say so offensive. I shouldn't get so worked up over what someone says. I understand and will use better words from now on. I thank you for your effort to help me. And thank you for being supportive.

[Peter]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by audiogirl:<BR><B>Peter, <BR>You guys are just mad 'cause you lost the war. How could I have forgotten about indirect quotation marks? Duh. Tell me, which is worse, improper use of quotation marks, or introducing a quote with a large intestine instead of a comma? <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Audiogirl,<BR>As a native of the birthplace of the English language, I should point out that either a colon, OR a comma, may introduce a direct quotation. Now, for your insolence, you will stay after class, & write 100 lines, thus: "I will spell `skilful` well." <BR>PS. What war did we lose? <p>[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 03-16-2001).]

[provistbrahms]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EJA:<BR><B>Provistbrahms,<BR> As you may know, I am to a great degree sympathetic with you views. However, I think it fitting to suggest that you take to heart some of the constructive criticism you have received. If you would peruse your posts with a critical eye toward grammar and spelling prior to submitting them, you would greatly enhance your apparent credibility. It may or may not be fair, but people judge you by the words you use and the skill with which you wield them. (I might also mention that they will give you more slack in speaking than in writing.) There are a multitude of reasons for this phenomenon. Your writing is a reflection of your personality, intellect, and even your morality. If you are lax in your observation of spelling or grammatical rules, you indicate that you are ignorant, stupid, or careless, none of which improves your reputation. Furthermore, it hampers your communication, and opens you up to <I>ad hominem</I> attacks, which are destructive and really fruitless for your cause. A word of advice: such attacks are best addressed by ignoring them. Responding in kind only heightens the animosity. I might add that I think that most of the criticism you have received here has been constructively oriented; not so much intended to destroy your position as to sober you up. <P> Another think that has been adressed is a certain attitude of arrogance that creeps into your writing at times. You're a young and spirited colt and sometimes you kick up your heels more than is becoming. You may be dead right, but being snobby or cocky about it doesn't help your position. You would be better served to assume an attitude of humility, and, by all means, abstain from the <I>ad hominem</I> yourself. <P> It's just a suspicion, but I have a feeling you post pretty impulsively. Take more time; stop, think, review what you have written; put yourself in the position of the recipients. A few well chosen words make a far greater impact than a discontinuous litany. You also might want to compose your posts in a word-processor that has spelling and grammar checking. A better idea would be to force yourself to study those dry and dull subjects like grammar, composition, and spelling, but the word-processor would be a thumb in the dike, shall we say. <P> Let me just state again, I say these things not to put you down, but to help you, and your cause. You have considerable ability to express yourself in writing, but you need years of polish to realize your potential. Hang in there. I wish you all the best.<P>Diddo, Brahmsian<P> -- EJA</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I thank you for the advice from you EJA. And you are right I should have ignored it right from the begining. I have edited my first post at least three times. So as not to be so shall we say so offensive. I shouldn't get so worked up over what someone says. I understand and will use better words from now on. I thank you for your effort to help me. And thank you for being supportive.

[Harry Potter]

How does this bulletin board improve the life of others? What insetive shoud I have to stick around?<P>posted with love,<BR>HP<P>p.s. you guys seem a bit unhinged.

[audiogirl]

I think I used the whole comma-in-the-quotes thing correctly when I was in graduate school. I remember one of our PhD's saying it should be the other way around. I must confess I truly don't know what is acceptable. Ethan, is it me, or have the correct uses of the verbs lie and lay, past tense and so forth, fallen by the wayside?<P>Hey EJA, thanks for trying to put out the fire. You said it better than I could have.

[serge urtizberea]

What happened here?<P>What was originally an outpouring of melodramatic teenage angst and quasi-egocentrism has turned into a slinging match. There's not a hint of music in these posts. All we have are all the marginalized teenagers ganging up on Audiogirl, who is not a teen herself, simply because she took issue with the fact that the idea of colors in music posited by provistbrahms was not an absolute. Her countering was no more "arrogant" than anything we normally post against an opinion we don't agree with. It was not "political rhetoric"; in fact, I do not see any politics in the issue at hand. And, no, Peter, she did not misspell a single word in her post, unless you English insist the world spell 'color' with a "u". But that is beside the point here, too.<P>I am only 21, but I sometimes wonder if I am looking at the world less subjectively than our supposedly-incompetent musical students here. Forgive me, but there appear to be a lot of self-inflicted ego wounds being displayed to the world here: "I can't play my horn, and it kills me", or "I can't play my guitar, and it kills me", or "I'm not popular with the in-crowd", or "Why do all the undeserving get all the plums in life?" And so forth.<P>All of this rhetoric co-stars with the ubiquitous teenage attempt to deconstruct the world and set order to it according to "appropriate", idealized rules: Classical music must flourish, pop-anything is a cancer on our society and must die, etc; all of it described in hyperbole for (as I see it) scare-mongering effect. Talk of worldviews, anarchy, moral absolutes... what is all this? While it is never too late to be aware of the world surrounding you, it is no more helpful to the cause to bitch about it and spin it out of proportion than it is to actively work against its problems. Classical music suffering a "slaughter"? Not by a long shot. It is in decline, yes, but it is not slaughter. When the day comes that orchestras disband, soloists are working as teachers, and c.m. CDs are no longer available, then, yes, you have a slaughter. Before this happens, it is just a disinterest. This is all about perspective.<P>I did not have the greatest time in high school myself. Hardly anyone does. That is the sort of teen-ideal thing you see on TV. I still made the most of it, though. The people I was alienating with my music I was bringing closer with my sense of humor or whatever. Passive plaintiveness never worked for me, and continues to be just as useless today. You angst-ridden people are not lepers; people will talk to you and share with you if you can meet them halfway. And if they won't meet you halfway on ANYTHING, then they aren't people you want to deal with anyway. And if everyone in your school is the latter, then I am REALLY sorry; please graduate and get the hell out of Dodge as quick as you can.<P>So, for the record, I sympathize with the dark undercurrents of this thread, but I decry your attempts to vilify Audiogirl, who's remarkably taken her undeserved abuse with great good aplomb. <P>There is 16 years after h-s graduation to maximize your 'young' years (based on marketing demographics). Plenty of time to amend for any lost opportunuties, trust me.<P>Now having said my piece, I'll just prepare for the retaliation.<p>[This message has been edited by serge urtizberea (edited 03-16-2001).]

[provistbrahms]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by audiogirl:<BR><B>I think I used the whole comma-in-the-quotes thing correctly when I was in graduate school. I remember one of our PhD's saying it should be the other way around. I must confess I truly don't know what is acceptable. Ethan, is it me, or have the correct uses of the verbs lie and lay, past tense and so forth, fallen by the wayside?<P>Hey EJA, thanks for trying to put out the fire. You said it better than I could have.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The fire is finally put out. I have no more hostilities toward you audiogirl. Now lets talk music shall we? What do you think is acceptable in terms of what is said? Do you think that it should be acceptable to allow evil to downgrade the works of music?<BR>

[Peter]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EJA:<BR><B>

Originally posted by Peter:<BR>Audiogirl, that was not the only blemish! Maybe I am skilful at my use of "indirect quotation marks", but I say: "I`m not." Stay after class, & write fifty lines! <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Peter,<BR> I just can't resist. Shouldn't the above read:<BR>Audiogirl, that was not the only blemish! Maybe I am skilfull at my use of "indirect quotation marks," but I say: "I`m not." Stay after class, & write fifty lines! <BR>And why do you use "`" instead of "'" in "I'm?" Just wondering if I remember correctly. . . <BR> -- EJA

<BR>EJA,<BR>My use of both direct, & indirect, quotation marks is correct here. To a point, I agree about "`" & "'"; however, strictly speaking, the apostrophe should curve, in the direction of the missing letter(s) - in this case, "a" - but a curved apostrophe is something which my keyboard, alas, does not possess. Thus, I feel at liberty to substitute another, similar, character. I do not claim to be a typist. Now, please stop being SO pedantic! <BR>BTW, at least YOU know how to spell "skilful"! <p>[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 03-16-2001).]

[provistbrahms]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by serge urtizberea:<BR>[B]What happened here?<P>What was originally an outpouring of melodramatic teenage angst and quasi-egocentrism has turned into a slinging match. There's not a hint of music in these posts. All we have are all the marginalized teenagers ganging up on Audiogirl, who is not a teen herself, simply because she took issue with the fact that the idea of colors in music posited by provistbrahms was not an absolute. Her countering was no more "arrogant" than anything we normally post against an opinion we don't agree with. It was not "political rhetoric"; in fact, I do not see any politics in the issue at hand. And, no, Peter, she did not misspell a single word in her post, unless you English insist the world spell 'color' with a "u". But that is beside the point here, too.<P>I am only 21, but I sometimes wonder if I am looking at the world less subjectively than our supposedly-incompetent musical students here. Forgive me, but there appear to be a lot of self-inflicted ego wounds being displayed to the world here: "I can't play my horn, and it kills me", or "I can't play my guitar, and it kills me", or "I'm not popular with the in-crowd", or "Why do all the undeserving get all the plums in life?" And so forth.<P>All of this rhetoric co-stars with the ubiquitous teenage attempt to deconstruct the world and set order to it according to "appropriate", idealized rules: Classical music must flourish, pop-anything is a cancer on our society and must die, etc; all of it described in hyperbole for (as I see it) scare-mongering effect. Talk of worldviews, anarchy, moral absolutes... what is all this? While it is never too late to be aware of the world surrounding you, it is no more helpful to the cause to bitch about it and spin it out of proportion than it is to actively work against its problems. Classical music suffering a "slaughter"? Not by a long shot. It is in decline, yes, but it is not slaughter. When the day comes that orchestras disband, soloists are working as teachers, and c.m. CDs are no longer available, then, yes, you have a slaughter. Before this happens, it is just a disinterest. This is all about perspective.<P>I did not have the greatest time in high school myself. Hardly anyone does. That is the sort of teen-ideal thing you see on TV. I still made the most of it, though. The people I was alienating with my music I was bringing closer with my sense of humor or whatever. Passive plaintiveness never worked for me, and continues to be just as useless today. You angst-ridden people are not lepers; people will talk to you and share with you if you can meet them halfway. And if they won't meet you halfway on ANYTHING, then they aren't people you want to deal with anyway. And if everyone in your school is the latter, then I am REALLY sorry; please graduate and get the hell out of Dodge as quick as you can.<P>So, for the record, I sympathize with the dark undercurrents of this thread, but I decry your attempts to vilify Audiogirl, who's remarkably taken her undeserved abuse with great good aplomb. <P>There is 16 years after h-s graduation to maximize your 'young' years (based on marketing demographics). Plenty of time to amend for any lost opportunuties, trust me.<P>Now having said my piece, I'll just prepare for the retaliation.<P>[IF you will read the first post that I have now edited you will see the point of this. Now if you have some evidence to prove that my point of some modern music going isn't going down the gutter please state it. I will be happy to listen and adjust my opinion accordingly to that evidence.<BR>One more thing, it is my goal to do something about that peer pressrue in high school atmosphere. Why have it so bad? It is supposed to be a happy time in your life not a bad experience.<p>[This message has been edited by provistbrahms (edited 03-16-2001).]

[provistbrahms]

Can we please stop this slugging match on English and get back to the main topic of music. <P><p>[This message has been edited by provistbrahms (edited 03-16-2001).]

[serge urtizberea]

Provistb, you don't cease to amaze me. I will have to stop taking what you write seriously at all if you're going to continue warping the issue. I AM SYMPATHETIC TO YOU. I DO NOT DISAGREE ABOUT POP MUSIC (at least in spirit). Do not allude that I am against your positions (and all you English majors out there should be able to pick out what I refer to here). None of us is trying to alter your position, but we are concerned that you and your buddy Brahmsian are, well, thinking that the world is your enemy. I'm not much of an instigator, but I do absorb what I look at, and the idea returns over and over that you think you are fighting a losing battle. Let me ask you who would want to listen to c.m. if its most vocal advocates rail against the counterculture with histrionics? I sure wouldn't. <P>You want my opinions? Here: classical music will survive. It has survived for 400 years; it will likely survive the next 20. Whether anyone young will get into it will depend on how much FUN they will get out of it. And, let me tell you, telling would-be converts that their current music is the bane of society will not warm people to our side very well. Letting would-be converts reading up on our forums see the sort of faux-tragic self-pity that foments because of c.m. is just as unhelpful, too. The lack of social standing that derives from c.m. is avoidable if you wish. Bernstein avoided it, the Three Tenors avoided it, all my favorite artists avoided it, and, yes, I avoided it. But I worked at it. It was a job for me.<P>Be careful; there are people who purposefully stay depressed because it offers a perverse pleasure; a sort of self-sadism. If any of you ever feel like that, get on the Prozac quick.

[provistbrahms]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by serge urtizberea:<BR><B>Provistb, you don't cease to amaze me. I will have to stop taking what you write seriously at all if you're going to continue warping the issue. I AM SYMPATHETIC TO YOU. I DO NOT DISAGREE ABOUT POP MUSIC (at least in spirit). Do not allude that I am against your positions (and all you English majors out there should be able to pick out what I refer to here). None of us is trying to alter your position, but we are concerned that you and your buddy Brahmsian are, well, thinking that the world is your enemy. I'm not much of an instigator, but I do absorb what I look at, and the idea returns over and over that you think you are fighting a losing battle. Let me ask you who would want to listen to c.m. if its most vocal advocates rail against the counterculture with histrionics? I sure wouldn't. <P>You want my opinions? Here: classical music will survive. It has survived for 400 years; it will likely survive the next 20. Whether anyone young will get into it will depend on how much FUN they will get out of it. And, let me tell you, telling would-be converts that their current music is the bane of society will not warm people to our side very well. Letting would-be converts reading up on our forums see the sort of faux-tragic self-pity that foments because of c.m. is just as unhelpful, too. The lack of social standing that derives from c.m. is avoidable if you wish. Bernstein avoided it, the Three Tenors avoided it, all my favorite artists avoided it, and, yes, I avoided it. But I worked at it. It was a job for me.<P>Be careful; there are people who purposefully stay depressed because it offers a perverse pleasure; a sort of self-sadism. If any of you ever feel like that, get on the Prozac quick.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

[The Great Mazinga]

Serge...all I can say is...ditto, dude...<P>Thank goodness someone has crystalized what I think we have all been trying to convey (without much success). I for one agree.<P>There is no need to take the subject soo seriously that we get hypercritical and hypersensitive....I almost feel like this has turned into an est forum at times.<P>Allow me to get philospohical on your arses. <P>Ridentem dicere verum quid vetat?<P>or<P>What forbids a laughing man from telling the truth?<P>A message is only as good as how you deliver it, what good is a prophet if you alienate your flock.<P>Ingenio maximus, arte rudis (said of Ennius)<P>Greatest in genius, rough in skill<P><BR>.....and I'm spent.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by The Great Mazinga (edited 03-16-2001).]

[Harry Potter]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by provistbrahms:<BR><B>Can we please stop this slugging match on English and get back to the main topic of music. I wish for your opinions please. May I please have them? With this I can then adjust my own opinions and beliefs accordingly.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I say, do you need other people to tell you how to think?<P>Cheerio,<BR>Potter<P>

[provistbrahms]

<P><p>[This message has been edited by provistbrahms (edited 03-16-2001).]

[Peter]

Serge,<P>To clarify, correct & pick up on a few points. The grammar exchanges with audiogirl were a bit of fun, not meant to be taken seriously, & in the context of all the surrounding negativity, I think a welcome distraction. No, we English do not insist that the whole world spells as we do (would you listen if we did?); the discrepancy in audiogirl`s post was "skilful", which I have just discovered is spelt differently in North America - there you go, you learn something new every day!<P>As for the "lack of social standing" in associating oneself with classical music, as we have discussed at the "other place", I refute this because the concept seems absurd, & I have never seen any evidence in support of it. Your assertion that some people force themselves to listen to c.m. because they like being unhappy is interesting, to say the least! I can certainly think of far less enjoyable, fulfilling ways of making oneself miserable!!<P>PS. I think that you should own up to the good people here about possessing both of Britney`s albums, while your Mozart CD collection totals 0.

[The Great Mazinga]

Peter,<P>I think serge was saying that anyone new to cm would get the feeling that we are all downers and like to rail against pop culture and are never, ever happy...perception.<P>Don't think that he was saying we are.<P>After reading this stuff and helping it myself, who needs a beer?<P>I do...and I am not taking the subject lightly or an alcoholic.<P>Pax<P>CCC,G,III<BR>In hoc signo vinces

[Peter]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Great Mazinga:<BR><B>Peter,<BR>I think serge was saying that anyone new to cm would get the feeling that we are all downers and like to rail against pop culture and are never, ever happy...perception.<BR>Don't think that he was saying we are.<BR>After reading this stuff and helping it myself, who needs a beer?<BR>I do...and I am not taking the subject lightly or an alcoholic.<BR>Pax<BR>CCC,G,III<BR>In hoc signo vinces</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Mr. M,<BR>Don`t worry, Serge is an old sparring partner. Like you, I just laugh all the time, because as Mr. McCartney once asked: "What's the use of worrying?" And Macca gave us the profound answer himself, straight away:"No use." -(Mrs. Vandebilt)<P>Yeah, we could all do with a drink........you, me, Sam, Bo, everyone.......