Beethoven and an Electric Guitar

[EJA_2]

Just thought I'd lighten things up to clear the air. <P>I've always wondered what the great composers would have done with an electric guitar, or a synthesizer, or some of the other instruments invented in modern times thanks to modern technology. Would Beethoven have composed a concerto for electric guitar? Would Bach have written a fugue for synthesizer? Sure, I've heard transcriptions of their music for such instruments, but their music might have been different if they were aware of all the options these instruments provide. Any thoughts?

[Peter]

CALLING LESLIE!!!!!!!!!............

[~Leslie]

Wow, I'm there. Speechless, but hey, we gotta start somewhere. The slow part of the Pathetique sounds quaint on a nylon string.<P>I'm being shy here. This is flame bait territory, folks. I've seen a simular thread grow<BR>a mile long before in a hurry, just cos some guitar shredder got it in his head to transcribe the great Beethoven for electric guitar.<P>Next thing I knew, about half the guys in the forum got their boxers in a bunch over it. <P>But EJA, you're being even bolder, asking us what would Beethoven do? I have asked it too, and got dust blown in my eyes. <P>I see what today's musicians are using gear-wise, and they are utilizing everything the manufacturers can convince them to use. It's good advertisement to say "So & So plays a ___________(fill in with the name of gear).<P>Most top performers and composers of today have commissioned luthiers and guitar companies to custom -make a guitar (or whatever)for a specific purpose or tonal quality. The possibilities are endless. <P>Consider the 42 string Pikasso commissioned by Metheny, designed and constructed by Canadian luthier Linda Manzer. This monster acoustic axe is a hybrid cross between a harp and guitar, with numerous drone strings, and the sound it makes is positively ethereal.<P>I cannot help but think ,if these amazing instruments were available-- with the gifted players to play them, that Beethoven would<BR>take advantage of sonic exploration of timbre and tone.~ <P>

[EJA_2]

Gracious! I wasn't trying to get something <I>else</I> inflammatory started on the board! This was just something I have always wondered about. <P> -- EJA

[audiogirl]

RENT RENT RENT RENT RENT!<BR>Just a little off the subject, this show actually has an electric guitar solo on which a familiar melody from La Boheme is played.<P>Perhaps Wolfgang Van Halen will be a pioneer in this field, having been named after Mozart and being the offspring of an electric guitar god.

[~Leslie]

Wolfgang Van Halen. Nice job, Eddie. Here's to the Flying V Dutchman. <P>Who SAID inflammatory? Hey look folks, we can all sit around in here and pat each other on the backs, telling each other how good our posts are, or we can get down to some SERIOUS discussion. <P>We all have are personal music templates,<BR>and diversity and sometimes yes, even dissension is part of the internet. <P>The electric guitar is a viable instrument of our times, whether you choose to embrace it or not. <P>I'm not talkin about blasting power chords and some guys(Hello, Nicole, I'm being careful here) screaming into their mike at the tops of their lungs either. I'm talkin about jazz.<P>The old school: Tal Farlow, Charlie Christian, Joe Pass, Barney Kessel, Wes Montgomery, Kenny Burrell,<BR>Charlie Byrd, and Jim Hall.<P><BR>Tell me Django Reinhardt, the Gypsy guitarist with his maimed left hand on his acoustic archtop, was not a "true" musician, if you dare. <P>A large body of these works, particularly the solos, have been transcribed religiously by students for the past few decades, and these early pioneers paved the way for today's jazz guitarists. <P>A great deal of today's jazz guitarists are multi-tasked oriented, playing many types of acoustic and electric guitars, and versed in more than just one genre.<P> these guys can sit down and whip off a JS Bach tune whenever prompted. They KNOW harmony, and Bach, (argue away,folks) is the Granddaddy of Harmony.<P>So why am I talkin jazz in a Classical forum, anyway? Because ladies & gentlemen, I believe jazz is America's very own classical music, in the grande scheme of things.<P>(Ooooh, another flamer)<P>Over and out......~<P> <P>

[audiogirl]

Leslie,<P>Jazz and Country both originated in America. Is this correct? I think I've heard that rock orignated in a Scandinavian country.<P><BR>audiogirl<P>P.S. I admire Eddie and Valerie for their homage to Mr. M., but don't you think that borders on child abuse?

[~Leslie]

No, but naming kids MoonUnit and Dweezil Zappa does.

[EJA_2]

No, I'm afraid I couldn't agree that Jazz rises to the level of "Classical Music." Neither does Country, in my opinion, though I would agree that Jazz and Country are both bonified American music forms. I would classify them more as American folk music. These music forms are the type of thing that happen when friends get together and play music. Lots of their characteristics are a result of people making music with the skill and instruments that were available to them. By contrast, Classical music is more purely an art form. I'm not necessarily saying that Jazz and Country are inferior musical forms. I'm saying that they are <I>different</I> musical forms. They are much more informal, and much less codified or refined. This means that almost anyone with any musical ability can find their niche in Jazz and Country, whereas Classical music has more stringent requirements. Jazz and Country can be performed in spare time, whereas Classical music more or less requires the devotion of one's life. Of course, Jazz and Country are much less serious, much lighter, much less consequential over time than is Classical. Nevertheless, they have, and will continue to have, considerable influence on Classical music. In many ways I think folk music blazes the frontiers for Classical. <P> -- EJA

[Nicole Marie]

EJA-<P>Be careful! Jazz and classical are not easier. Not anyone can find their niche in country and jazz. I am a classical musician and have studied for years. I studied jazz for a few years also and never found it easy. If anything it was harder than classical. So I can not agree with you. It's different but not easier.<P>As for the start of jazz and country. Although we connect it with starting in America, true. But study jazz and you will find influence from so many other cultures and countries. <p>[This message has been edited by Nicole Marie (edited 03-20-2001).]

[~Leslie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by EJA:<BR>[B]No, I'm afraid I couldn't agree that Jazz rises to the level of "Classical Music." Neither does Country, in my opinion, though I would agree that Jazz and Country are both bonified American music forms. I would classify them more as American folk music. These music forms are the type of thing that happen when friends get together and play music. Lots of their characteristics are a result of people making music with the skill and instruments that were available to them. By contrast, Classical music is more purely an art form. I'm not necessarily saying that Jazz and Country are inferior musical forms. I'm saying that they are <I>different</I> musical forms. They are much more informal, and much less codified or refined. This means that almost anyone with any musical ability can find their niche in Jazz and Country, whereas Classical music has more stringent requirements. Jazz and Country can be performed in spare time, whereas Classical music more or less requires the devotion of one's life. Of course, Jazz and Country are much less serious, much lighter, much less consequential over time than is Classical. Nevertheless, they have, and will continue to have, considerable influence on Classical music. In many ways I think folk music blazes the frontiers for Classical. <BR>*******************************<BR>I refuse to even discuss Country. I detest it. <P>After listening to it for about an hour, it makes me feel like killing myself with a rock. It is all around me out here, and is is watered down, twangy, and the emphasis is largely based on the lyrics, and image, NOT the music. Yes, there are exceptions, but it doesn't have the complexity of harmonic changes that jazz has, and because of that, it doesn't have much to offer in the way of creative improvisation. <P>To say that jazz is not an viable and difficult art form to master is absolutely the most ludicrous, uninformed statement I have ever read on the web. Go ahead and analyze the changes to Coltrane's Giant Steps and tell me this is something anyone off the street or a casual player can solo over. The amount of time it takes to play jazz well is equivalent to the time it takes to play classical, equally well. <P>Lastly, my comment was not asking forum members to compare and debate the two genres. My statement was an overview of American music within the framework and timeline of the history of music itself, over the course of centuries.<P>P.S. Nicole, Being a horsewoman, I guess another exception is good looking cowboys in jeans, there it is, it's that image thang. ~ <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by ~Leslie (edited 03-20-2001).]

[Nicole Marie]

Right on Leslie. But don't count George Strait out! (Country music that is) The man looks great in a tight pair of jeans! Performs excellent too!

[John]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nicole Marie:<BR><B>Right on Leslie. But don't count George Strait out! (Country music that is) The man looks great in a tight pair of jeans! Performs excellent too!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Nicole:<P>Hmmm. Let's get this strait (sorry, couldn't resist). I noted that you mentioned his musical talent as an after thought. Form above talent?<P>John<P>

[Nicole Marie]

I must say that the jeans hooked me first! But there's something about his voice! Turns me to mush.

[audiogirl]

I've heard 'Charlie Parker' mentioned in some of Harry Connick Jr's songs. I wondered who he was. <P>I have a friend whose very talented granddaughter took her "sound" to Nashville to try it out on some exec. The guy told her, in essence, "You have a beautiful voice, and I like your songs, but you're not country, and I can't sell you."

[EJA_2]

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. Don't get so hot under the collar! I wasn't trying to be insulting. It just comes naturally. . . <P>Can you find a place in my previous post where I said Jazz was easy? Frankly, I have more trouble remembering Jazz tunes than Classical melodies, and I'll be the first to admit that I don't have it for Jazz. Nonetheless I will stolidly oppose the opinion that Jazz is in the same category as Classical music. I liked what I said previously, that Jazz, and other folk music, is a sort of pioneer for Classical music. Classical takes the silver from the dross and fashions a work of art. Many of the great Classical composers based some of their most beautiful pieces upon folk melodies. They threw out the atrocious parts first, however. <P>Now, on the subject of Country "music," (sorry, Peter, that's how I was taught) I wasn't saying that I like it all that much. I've been exposed to it as a result of growing up in a farm community, so I can tolerate it, but . . . There are a <B>very</B> few Country songs that I might even admit to almost <I>liking</I>, but for the most part, they are annoying, stupid, raucous, and obnoxious. <P>Perhaps I could sum it up by saying that some country songs are preferrable to some Jazz, and vice versa, but neither can even hold a candle to almost anything from the Classical genre. The best of Jazz is probably better than the best of Country, but give me Classical or give me ear plugs. <P>Fair enough?<P> -- EJA<P> P.S. I exercised restraint in not even begin to express my negative feelings concerning Rock, Rap, and a few other kinds of noise that I've heard at a distance but don't know what to call. Yuck! <p>[This message has been edited by EJA (edited 03-20-2001).]

[~Leslie]

<BR>"Can you find a place in my previous post where I said Jazz was easy?" <P>Well, yes, in so many words: <P>"This means that almost anyone with any musical ability can find their niche in Jazz and Country, whereas Classical music has more stringent requirements. Jazz and Country can be performed in spare time, whereas Classical music more or less requires the devotion of one's life. Of course, Jazz and Country are much less serious,........." <P>When it comes to jazz, you'll find that I'm quite serious, EJA.<P>

[EJA_2]

OK, I'll shut up, but please put down that shotgun! <P>"With any musical ability" and "or Country" were enough caveat for me. Sorry if I offended. <BR> -- EJA

[~Leslie]

Sigh, silence is golden. Sometimes. <P>Audiogirl, Charlie "Bird" Parker was a bebop sax player. The jazz slang term "Birdland" came from him, and his song, Orinthology. Bebop musicians were refugees from the mainstream big jazz bands in the 30's, tired of playing from the same old chart book. The complex harmonies were made to scare off the <BR>no talents. <g><P>*********************<BR>I think Rock was derived from the Deep South--- the Black man's blues, combined with the 50's white teenage rebellion. They didn't want to swing with the jazz bands, didn't want to hear their parent's crooners. Later on , it came from England, during the British Invasion. <BR>*************************<P>Some jazz can be traced back to Debussy, Stravinsky, and well, ragtime and Dixieland, it's foundation was firmly in place by the 1890's, but didn't really take off until the turn of the century , in conjunction with the developments in recorded sound. <P>It's true that at one time, jazz was pop mainstream music, and that's how many genres come about.Young people get tired and look for something new. Maybe its hard to think of Mozart or Beethoven as being pop music at one time, but I think they were. <P>

[audiogirl]

Thanks for the Charlie Parker info.