Equals?

[provistbrahms]

<P>Thank you all for you responses positive and negative. Now I guess that I must be a little more specific to what I mean. What I am talking about is the feeling that is put into modern music is the equal of what Beethoven and all of the others put into their own. The only thing is that they don't describe the feeling well enough and don't do a good job of developing their themes. Technicality was a broad term for all that was said about why classical music is better than modern music. To tell them that it is wrong is like taking something away from them that is extremely close to their hearts like classical is to ours. This is how i came to the conclusion that I first posted about. Audiogirl that is ok.

[audiogirl]

To tell them that it is wrong is like taking something away from them that is extremely close to their hearts like classical is to ours. <P>Very well put, PB. <BR>

[The Great Mazinga]

<P>All your base are belong to us.<P>Those of you that are in the know will get it.<P><BR>To Darth: glad to see you held the tradition while I was away.<P>Pax

[Brahmsian]

I agree and disagree with provistbrahms at the same time. While the emotion you are talking about may mean a considerable amount to a modernist, it totally lacks the depth of say Beethoven's ninth. It does work, but on a far more simple and far less elaborate scale. I prefer a more enlightening form of music instead of the "whipped cream" that seems to be in excess all around.

[provistbrahms]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brahmsian:<BR><B>I agree and disagree with provistbrahms at the same time. While the emotion you are talking about may mean a considerable amount to a modernist, it totally lacks the depth of say Beethoven's ninth. It does work, but on a far more simple and far less elaborate scale. I prefer a more enlightening form of music instead of the "whipped cream" that seems to be in excess all around.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>True but like I said before thinking of how they feel and think when we say their music is bad is like taking something very valuable to them away. We may not see the value of it but it is valuable to them just the same. The object isn't to force them to listen to classical music it is to get them to listen to it with their hearts and minds to expeirence what we are saying. I think just telling them logical reasoning isn't enough it runs deeper than that. Brahmsian I agree with you on what you say. But much consideration of their thoughts and feelings is necessary when trying to get them to expeirence classical music for themselves. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by provistbrahms (edited 04-05-2001).]

[Lynn]

Hello all; I just want to say that I am going to start a new Beethoven message board at PianoTonight.com. You can start one of your choice, too... just go there. The rest of the site is awesome, too! <P>Concert listings, mp3s, and everything!<P>-lynn

[Lynn]

Hello all; I just want to say that I am going to start a new Beethoven message board at PianoTonight.com. You can start one of your choice, too... just go there. The rest of the site is awesome, too! <P>There's Concert listings, mp3s, and everything!<P>And I'm not working for them or anything- I've just been emailing the student who started it, and he is really nice and wants to get a classical community together. <P>see ya,<BR>Lynn

[~Leslie]

Prov,<BR>Could you be more specific about what modern music encompasses??<BR>Are you say, refering to acoustic vs electric? <BR>OR:<BR>Rock? Prog Rock? Top 40? Smooth Light? Broadway? Movie Soundtracks? Swing? Rap? Industrial? Hip-hop? Disco? Grunge? Punk? Big Band? Be-bop? Metal? New Age? World? Reggae? Easy Listening muzak? Country? Rhythm & Blues? <BR>Fusion? Ska? <P>Orchestral vs smaller groups?<P>Having lived in Spokane for 9 years, I am aware that Omak, WA ain't exactly the mecca for modern music. Like, for example, Chicago, LA, or NY is. <P>Could it be that yer exposure to music has merely been limited to what yr peers are into, which may be some vacuous drivel, twangy, noodling, noisy, garbled up msg which does not hold a candle in yr ears to the European virtuoso tradition? <P>On that assumption, I would have to agree that yes, modern music probably is not worth a row of beans next to classical music. <P>HOWEVER, when and if you are lucky enough to be exposed to some of the more refined and cultured examples of better musicianship the world has to offer, than you might be more inclined to hear things differently.<P>~

[Nicole Marie]

In all the posts we have forgot the composer who brought the arrival of modern music, Stravinsky. The best example of the birth of modern music was on March 29 1913 when Le Sacre du printemps opened in Paris.<P>Stravinsky paved the way for modern composers. Yes I'm partial to the more current modern composers but how can anyone ignore Stravinsky as one of the great moderns? I would compare him to Beethoven any day.<P>As for the postings about the connection with God. Well, Stravinsky wrote, "I am the vessel through which Le Sacre passed." and "I heard, and I wrote what I heard." Sounds like God is showing him the way.

[EJA_2]

Stravinsky is indeed interesting. To be influenced by both Debussy and Tchaikovsky <I>would</I> make one interesting. Like Debussy he kind of thought outside of the box. The progression of music reminds me of the atomic model. Mankind started out with something simple, cut-and-dried to explain atomic observations. By the dawn of the twentieth century the Bohr atomic model was still clearly an ordered system to the casual observer, but its complexity was exponentially greater than what had been presented by John Dalton in 1803. Now as the 21st century dawns there are so many exceptions, qualifications and caveats on the general rules that to the uninitiated it just looks like a mess. I think Stravinsky was right in there with Niels Bohr, as far as the progression of classical music to modern classical music. Here is how Stravinsky "drew" his music <A HREF="http://w3.rz-berlin.mpg.de/cmp/stravinsky_7.jpg." TARGET=_blank>http://w3.rz-berlin.mpg.de/cmp/stravinsky_7.jpg.</A> <BR>Now, just as it takes more and more background, knowledge, and mathematical dexterity to understand the increasing complexity of the atomic model, so it takes more and more background, knowledge, and musical talent to understand the increasing complexity of modern classical music. In both cases, this reduces the appeal to the masses. At the same time, this phenomenon increases its appeal to those who are students of atomic physics or classical music, because it is enjoyable to master something complex and make it work for you. On the other hand it doesn't appeal to someone who just wants to relax and hear some nice music. <P>Now, I would mention here that I'm not including impostors like John Cage who deliberately made their music chaotic and unnappealing as a jesture of disdain for all things ordered, or as a pseudo-religious homage to chance. I don't think Sravinsky was in that category. Some of his music is beautiful and communicative. The rest of it I probably don't have the capacity to understand. Either that or it was the product of dark times in his life. An artist doesn't stop producing just because they are having a bad day, and sometimes, I think, in our efforts to find all of an artist's work, we publish things that would have been better left to rest. <P> -- EJA

[Luegwig]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nicole Marie:<BR><B>Good points Bill. <P>But isn't what you said, "What seems to be communicated by this modern stuff (with exceptions) is confusion (a valid expression considering post-modernist philosophy) and frankly, I don't know what else." A matter of opinion?<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I've been away for a while and boy did things blow up!<P>No, it's not just a matter of opinion [img]/ubb/wink.gif[/img].<P>Can we just say at the outset that everything said here is a matter of opinion? I thought that was understood.<P>I'm a graduate in physics and one of the things I like about that field is that it deals in absolutes. The things that are established are uncontroversial. To say that I don't agree with the laws of thermodynamics would be idiotic because it's not a matter of opinion. <I><B>F</B></I> always = <I>m<B>a</B></I>. <I>E</I> always = <I>mc^2.</I> Ropes never push.<P>MUSIC IS a matter of opinion! Really, I have a difference of opinion internally about what I had for lunch today. Romantic music is not as good to me as Beethoven's music. Was he Classical or Romantic. There isn't much agreement there at all. I think we all agree that he started the movement. The Romantic movement probably started with the Eroica, my favorite, but somehow in my mind, he is the perfector of the Classical form. His music is perfect and that is what classicism is all about.<P>By the way, NM, this is not directed at you. There's a lot of tearing down on this board for people expressing their views.<P>Serge, points taken. I'm glad you like Romantic. I like a lot of Romantic music. Listz is too busy for me...except for Mazeppa (sp?). Brahms, Mendolssohn are way cool. See! Thare are no hard and fast rules here.<P>-Bill<p>[This message has been edited by Luegwig (edited 04-09-2001).]

[audiogirl]

Luegwig,<P>Graduate in Physics, AND lover of classical music? Kudos to you for serious utilization of both cerebral hemispheres!

[provistbrahms]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by audiogirl:<BR>[B]Luegwig,<P><p>[This message has been edited by provistbrahms (edited 04-11-2001).]

[provistbrahms]

To be more sepcific to what I mean is in your opinion is modern music equal to classical in feeling from the human spirit. It isn't equal in classical music because it can be better expressed in my opinion. What I am looking for by saying technicality is simply your opinion.

[provistbrahms]

To be more sepcific to what I mean is in your opinion is modern music equal to classical in feeling from the human spirit. It isn't equal in classical music because it can be better expressed in my opinion. What I am looking for by saying technicality is simply anything that separates and makes classical music better than modern music in your own perspectives.<p>[This message has been edited by provistbrahms (edited 04-28-2001).]