Equals?

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Re: Equals?

Postby EJA_2 » Tue Apr 03, 2001 4:45 pm

Audiogirl, and others,<P>Apart from absolutes there is no possibility of knowledge. However, I do not say that beauty and perfection are absolutes in and of themselves. They are defined absolutely by their absolute Author, God. Furthermore, I might add that there cannot be any absolutes above Him, for then He would cease to be ultimate, which is impossible by His very nature. <P>So as far as examples, let us take perfection. In order to define perfection, one must be perfect. It is a necessity in the nature of the definition. Furthermore, because of the interdependency of knowledge, in order to know anything about anything, one must know everything about everything. So, obviously, God, being perfect and all-knowing, is the One who defines perfection. Circular reasoning? Yes. All reasoning is ultimately circular because man can only know what has been revealed to him. Without revealed knowledge, man has no starting point for predication. We all know that we predicate, therefore, we must have received revelation. This being assumed, we return to the concept of perfection. Perfection is a meaningless word apart from a definition thereof. The usual definition, agreed upon by society as part of language, is a string of words that describe a concept. That concept is either an original concept revealed to us, or a derivative concept based upon predication involving other derived or orginal concepts. To make a long story short, what I am saying is that, if taken to its source, anything that we can conceptualize, or predicate upon, must have been revealed to us. Furthermore, in order for our predication to continue to be possible, the Revealer must remain constant and immutable. As a result, there is an absolute standard for <I>everything</I>. <P>Now, beauty is a more prickly beast, as the level of subjectivity is greater. I would posit that beauty is something that we are able to appreciate based on the Divine imprint present in all of us. I also submit that in view of the infinity of the Divine nature, none of us are capable of appreciating the full spectrum of beauty -- or many other concepts -- but rather are each uniquely sensible to specific aspects thereof. There is, however, an antithetical concept to beauty to which we all have a certaing sensibility, once again not in all its aspects, and in which those who rebel against the inescapable authority of God delight in reveling, for they know that it displeases Him. This reveling, I believe, is the source of such music, art and (im)morality as is prevalent in our society today -- offensive to the very most basic part of our natures, yes, even to those who revel in it. The tragedies of their lives have their cause herein, for God will not allow rebellion against Himself, and, though He is patient, judges it decisively and irreversibly. <P> -- EJA<P>P.S. I recognize that some will be offended by this post, however, I think it is better to offend and save a soul than to never offend and never save a soul. <p>[This message has been edited by EJA (edited 04-03-2001).]
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Re: Equals?

Postby serge urtizberea » Tue Apr 03, 2001 5:05 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Luegwig:<BR><B> I may get killed for this, but I think that the Romantic movement that happened immediately after (or if you prefer during...) Beethoven was a travesty of sorts. Composers seemed to think that Beethoven opened the door for breaking all the rules--so they did and musical discipline went out the window. Beethoven may have tossed out some of the classical rules of composition, but he made his own rules and stuck by them. His revolution had purpose and a discipline of its own. <P>What happened after was an ever increasing amount of chaos. <P>Enough ranting. I look forward to your disagreements!<P>-Bill</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Here it is, then. I completely disagree with your take on the romantic movement. Before Beethoven, before the idea of actually pushing music beyond the envelope, there was almost nothing but the stilted, boilerplate music that defined the likes of Mozart and Haydn. They called it the "classical" era for a reason; the music was an embodiment of the ancient Greek and Roman ideals of "neat and tidy". Like their architecture and epistomology, the music before Beethoven was formulaic and standardized. There was not much exploration beyond the given rules of compositional format & style, instrument use and orchestra size, and it made for predictable music. Fine for entertainment, but hardly sufficient for the expression of the human existence, which is anything but formulaic, as far as I'm concerned.<P>Beethoven was too revolutionary to most of the Viennese, and even his most ardent admirers sometimes had to reach to provide a complimentary account of some of his music. The composers after him learned quick and learned well their lesson: music could EXPRESS. Despite some shortcomings (Mahler's incomprehensible symphonies, Wagner's overblown-ness), the romantic age provided a lot of music's greatest stories. <P>I don't defend everything that was written in the 19th cent., but I am firmly convinced that the state of music was far improved thanks to B. The lyricism of Chopin, the boisterousness of Berlioz, the sombre folksiness of Sibelius, the frenetic showmanship of Liszt, the melancholic 'academism' of Brahms, and the joyful symphonic sounds of the newly-married Schumann, among many others, were not heard to these ears before Beethoven. <P>I have a general distaste for the classical era. The baroque period provided many gems and much influence to the future generations, including the best counterpoint and polyphony I know, but the classical age, while demonstrating excellent music in very 'square' dimensions, offers me little else. <P>Beethoven was deeply influenced by his predecessors; his formulaic first-period music is testament to that. While most of his music exhibited classically-trained parameters, he managed to infuse much more feeling into it than anyone had done before (perhaps since, too). I'm just describing this in broad strokes, and maybe I'm being too general, but I have yet to hear a classical era work that really satisfies me.
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Re: Equals?

Postby BenG » Tue Apr 03, 2001 5:47 pm

Serge,<P>I agree with what you've written here. Well done.<P>-BenG
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Re: Equals?

Postby Nicole Marie » Wed Apr 04, 2001 5:38 am

Hey Serge you brought up an interesting point about Beethoven being influenced by earlier composers. Well, is it true then, that today's composers are influenced by Beethoven to some degree? So if I can use your point, I think some of the modern composers would be on the same par as Beethoven with a different style.<P>Oh and EJA... Glad you still think God's a man. Image Well you know my take...God (She) is doing just fine!
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Re: Equals?

Postby TallBlondeFlutist » Wed Apr 04, 2001 7:44 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EJA:<BR>[Apart from absolutes there is no possibility of knowledge. However, I do not say that beauty and perfection are absolutes in and of themselves. They are defined absolutely by their absolute Author, God. Furthermore, I might add that there cannot be any absolutes above Him, for then He would cease to be ultimate, which is impossible by His very nature -- EJA<P>P.S. I recognize that some will be offended by this post, however, I think it is better to offend and save a soul than to never offend and never save a soul. <P>B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>EJA,<P>You've done my heart good. I wholehaeartedly agree with you - on your view of the Almighty Creator, and in your taste in music. It is so refreshing to know there are others like-minded.<P>My God is a God or order, not chaos! Therefore, I am quite certain He would want all our music to bring praise to Him - in an orderly fashion. That brings me to my point in my prior post about dissonance, etc.<P>Anyway, Thanks again for your boldness in expressing your views (and mine).<P>
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Re: Equals?

Postby shostakovich » Wed Apr 04, 2001 8:36 am

Hi Serge. My gut reaction to music also favors romantic over classical. I like the sound of a big orchestra, which the classical composers didn't have. It strikes me that classical appeals to the head (as did Greek architecture, mathematics), and romantic appeals to the heart (more neurological responses to the wider variety of sounds). Beethoven's music does both, which is why he has such widespread acceptance. He's also the earliest composer whose album covers can appropriately feature revolutionary or romantic art.<BR>Shos
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Re: Equals?

Postby Glenn Gould » Wed Apr 04, 2001 8:52 am

Dear EJA and Tallblondeflutist,<P>Please forgive me in pronouncing you two to be completely and utterly diluted. I hope your brand of close-mindedness, and deception is not wide spread in our great world. I don't think you appreciate anything really and to accuse those who find beauty, (GODS BEAUTY) in the un-usual? How dare you? Are going to say next that modern art is blasphemous?<P>I pitty you for you are the few over-crazed and misguided individuals that are drifting about scarred from a lack of real perception and understanding. And EJA all your eloquence is a clever tool to sway folks in your favour but if one truly reads what you are saying I should think they would feel sick.<P>Glenn
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Re: Equals?

Postby treebeau » Wed Apr 04, 2001 9:59 am

Uh oh, here we go.<P>Somebody wake me when it's all over.<P>regards,<BR>Tim B.<BR>
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Re: Equals?

Postby Nicole Marie » Wed Apr 04, 2001 10:06 am

I agree with treebeau. Can we keep at least this conversation about music and leave the other stuff out of it?
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Re: Equals?

Postby Glenn Gould » Wed Apr 04, 2001 10:07 am

treebeau,<P>No, you shouldn't turn a blind eye to this sort of thing. I'm sorry but anyone with love in their hearts cannot accept the sort of imposition that EJA and the like propose. While they are entitled to their opinions it is equally a person of reason's duty to point out the inhearant wrong in using "God" as a means to propagate bigotry and unjustified, unreasonable, flawed views.<P>Glenn
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Re: Equals?

Postby Glenn Gould » Wed Apr 04, 2001 10:08 am

However Nicole too is correct, and this forum should be about the music, so I offer EJA a personal dialogue, you may e-mail me at Glenngould@beethoven.com<P>Excuse me for being so passionate.
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Re: Equals?

Postby Darth Mazinga » Wed Apr 04, 2001 12:00 pm

I sense a disturbance in the force.....<P>
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Re: Equals?

Postby Harry Potter » Wed Apr 04, 2001 12:07 pm

I agree, Maybe to set things back on course, any ideas?<P>HP
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Re: Equals?

Postby Darth Mazinga » Wed Apr 04, 2001 12:18 pm

yeah, let's play Jenga! the drinking version.
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Re: Equals?

Postby audiogirl » Wed Apr 04, 2001 12:22 pm

This is strictly my opinion, but I gravitate toward the more romantic-sounding fellas, too. Mozart at times sounds kinda cold, to me.........Dramatic, but cold.<P>
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Re: Equals?

Postby BenG » Wed Apr 04, 2001 1:42 pm

Glenn, speaking for myself, I wish we could continue to read your opinions here. Most of us enjoy a lively debate as long as it doesn't degenerate into personal insults. After all, that's what these boards are for--to have a spirited discussion on the music and the arts. Nobody is ever going to agree on everything and the best way to fight challening words is with more words...not silence. <P>Back to music. Serge...would you consider Wagner to be the end result or apotheosis of Romanticism? If so, I find it ironic that you have a distate for his music. Parts of Mahler were incomprehensible to me too...but the more I listen to him the more sense its beginning to make.<P>BenG<P>
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Re: Equals?

Postby Peter » Wed Apr 04, 2001 1:54 pm

What an astonishing thread! Where to begin?!<P>Nicole,<P>Fair enough about why you prefer to play more modern 'classical' music, but obviously it is the fun element of certain pieces which appeals to you more than meaningful communication of musical expression. I infer from your comment about modern composers being influenced by Beethoven, that you rate them at least as highly as him. Your view is valid, although I think it is preposterous!<P>EJA,<P>Perfection is attainable. There are perfect geometric shapes, perfect solutions, perfect understanding, perfect grades, etc. Beauty is subjective. If someone or something appears to me to be beautiful, then you cannot tell me that my perception is wrong, & vice versa. I am not comfortable with you bringing God into the discussion. Unlike you (& Tallblondeflutist), I am not religious, but if you claim to be a mouthpiece of God, then you should remember that you are no more so than me or anyone else.<P>Audiogirl,<P>Thanks for talking sense amongst the mayhem.<P>Mazinga,<P>Thanks for puncturing the pomposity (as only you can)!<P>Glenn & Harry,<P>Are you one & the same?<P>Shos.....hope you're well.......Serge........e-mail coming......Michael......where are you?......Leslie......tape! Image......Clare......XXX......etc.
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Re: Equals?

Postby Harry Potter » Wed Apr 04, 2001 2:17 pm

Why do you think that? I just met Glenn when I created the Glenn Gould thread. He just appeared.<P>hp
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Re: Equals?

Postby audiogirl » Wed Apr 04, 2001 2:43 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Harry Potter:<BR><B>Why do you think that? I just met Glenn when I created the Glenn Gould thread. He just appeared.<P>hp</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Harry,<BR>(Tongue in cheek alert!)<BR>Just appeared, did he? I suspected that you would go around creating threads, conjuring up multiple users. After all, it's your fault that millions of children across the country are........(*GASP*) Dare I say it? <P>READING! YES! AND LOVING IT! Shame on you, Harry Potter!<P>Just wanted to throw that in.
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Re: Equals?

Postby audiogirl » Wed Apr 04, 2001 2:44 pm

I have not a clue why that appeared twice. <p>[This message has been edited by audiogirl (edited 04-04-2001).]
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