Gershwin

[Shapley]

I never cared much for Gershwin's music, at least what I'd heard of it, for many years. I guess I never considered it 'serious' music (Yeah, right! Like I'd know what 'serious' music is!.

Anyhow, I've come to enjoy it of late. Particularly the Cuban Overture, which Beethoven.com plays regularly, and which I hadn't been familiar with before.

Anyone have any thoughts on his music? Is it 'serious' music?

V/R
Shapley

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

... Is it 'serious' music?

No, it's more cheerful than serious.

Ow.

All right, I'll be good. It's orchestral. It's highly structured. I don't know if that makes it either serious or classical but it's better suited to a concert hall than it is to a garage (for a live performance, anyway).

I'm sure one of the more knowledgable folks'll chime in soon. I think I'd like it if the b.com staff dug out some obscure Gershwin and played it for us. Hey, maybe I should request that.

[DavidS]

Gershwin was not the only one to metamorphose "classical" and "jazzy" styles.
Look at Bernstien, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, the Ravel piano concerto, and even Beethoven's no 1 (I think) with an unbelievable jazz-like bit in the 3rd movement.
We should have no problem with innovationists, which is what the past's giants were, as long as it is done in a manner which does not utterly trash or ignore what went previously.

[Shapley]

I don't think it is the mixture of 'classical' and 'jazz' that has always excluded him from the 'serious' music category, it's probably his association with Broadway. I didn't classify him as 'serious' in the way I exclude Rogers & Hammerstein and Andrew Lloyd Webber from that category, and also the way some people exclude movie soundtrack writers such as John Williams, I suppose.

Somewhere in the back of my mind is a definition of 'serious' music as music designed to stand on its own. For instance, While Opera is designed to accentuate music with a story, the Broadway musical is designed to accentuate a story with music, thus Broadway music is not 'serious'.

Relating this to movie music, Overtures, Entre-acts and End Credits can be 'serious' music, while incidental music isn't.

V/R
Shapley

[DavidS]

Shap - so where would you place Mendelssohn's A Midsummer Night's Dream, Grieg's Pier Gynt, all the musicals (even West side Story, not to mention The Sound of music), has been regarded as an opera) , and all the film music?

[Shapley]

David,

I have to agree with Nicole Marie that musicals are not in the same class as opera, although our reasons for saying so are probably vastly different. Most music from musicals does not stand on its own. It is there to accentuate what is happening on stage. Similarly, movie music is designed to accentuate what is happening on the screen. The exception to this are the overtures, enter-acts, and end credits, which are designed to entertain you while there is no action on screen. End credits are designed to get you to remain in you seat while the credits roll, so that you are more likely to read them.

That is not to say that musicals and movie music are not 'good' music, they are simply not 'serious', in my mind. There are exceptions of course.

V/R
Shapley

[Shapley]

David,

Sorry, you asked about some specifics, and I didn't answer them.

Peer Gynt is excellent music, and is about as serious as music gets, in my opinion, yet it was written as incidental music for a stage play, so it is clearly an exception to the rule, as is Mendelsohn's Midsummer Night's Dream. The Sound of Mucus is not an exception, I do not think the music can be seperated from the stage.

I suppose one has to look at how the composer viewed the music. Did he compose the music to stand on its own, or did he compose it as a backdrop for the action? Symphonies are sometimes written with a story in mind, music for an imaginary play, if you will. In the end, however, the music stands alone, and that is what makes it 'serious' by the definition I was given.

It's not uncommon for a composer to write variations on his stage music designed to stand independent of the incident for which it was originally written. Overtures, entre-acts, and end credits are often composed using incidental themes from the play or movie. Some merely string together these themes, as a sort of musical rehash of the film, but others put together a musical work based on those themes that has a character of its own.

Ballet, IMHO, is serious music, using the dance, not so much to accentuate it, but to express it visually as well as audibly, sort of like music for the deaf.

V/R
Shapley

[barfle]

What the heck is "serious" music anyway? Isn't it all supposed to be entertaining, to amuse and enlighten us?

DVD file structure, now THAT's serious! Although it's mostly intended to be a vehicle for entertainment, too.

[jamiebk]

I don't understand why people don't take "Movie Music" seriously. I'll be the first to admit that I am certainly no expert on this. However, it seems to me that a lot of "serious" classical music is specifically written to conger up vivid images in our heads as we listen. Pictures at an Exhibition, Pines of Rome, Fountains of Rome etc. etc. Movie music is written to drive visual images further into our brains...to accentuate that which we are seeing. When I hear such music, it brings back not only memories of the movie, but a whole flood of emotions that may be associated with it.

I will admit that there is a lot of garbage movie music out there, but the great movie music composers work imaginatively to bring the emotion of the movie to that audience. Many, many times, that music can easily stand on it's own. Were not many of the Handel peices written to accompany things like Fireworks, state events etc.? I don't see much difference between the role of a "royal composer" and that of someone like John Williams, for instance who writes music for our events such as the Olympics, ceremonies, and ..... movies.

[DavidS]

Shapley, I still think the music of "West Side Story" has serious artistic value in its own right - think of the Symphonic Variations based on its themes. And the same applies to "Porgy & Bess", "American in Paris", and "Rhaphsody in Blue" etc.
I agree with you about ballet, and some operas I don't mind listening to on audio only (like Carmen, Traviata, Trovatore, Rigoletto, Tosca, The Magic Flute, Don Giovanni, The Marriage of Figaro,The Barber of Seville, La Cenerentola, The Masked Ball, Otello, Die Fledermaus, Nabucco, Aida, Sampson and Delilah, Tourandot, Butterfly and La Boheme - to name but a few), but I still feel I'm getting the full meal when I see them live or on DVD or video.

[Shapley]

David,

I agree, the Symphonic Dances are great, but they're the only music I can honestly say I like from West Side Story. Were they part of the musical, or are they symphonic pieces based on music from the musical?

I suppose, ultimately, it could be said that all music is 'serious', but we don't take all of it seriously, or that we take some of it too seriously. Barfle's probably right, music exists to entertain us. If it succeeds in doing that, it's 'serious' music. If not, it's noise.

Jamie,

I listen to a lot of movie music. Some of it, as I've said before, is written as stand-alone music. For many young people, movie music is their introduction to orchestral music.

V/R
Shapley

[OperaTenor]

If by "serious", you mean non-pop, then I think his music qualifies as serious.

I've liked his music since I first heard it as a teenager. We have a great collection of his works done by Slatkin & the St. Louis Sytmphonytitled The Complete Gerschwin (VoxBox2).

My personal favorite is Concerto in F for piano and orchestra.

[shostakovich]

There are lots of tempting topics in this thread, but I'll stick with Gershwin. Considering that Rhapsody in Blue is almost always partnered with An American in Paris, my responses to them are vastly different. Rhapsody seems a true blend of jazz and (light) classic. American sounds empty, trashy, and without direction to me.

I'd say Porgy and Bess is his masterpiece --- and (IMO) the best American opera of the 20th C (almost by default). Cuban Overture is a delight. I Got Rhythm Variations and the Second Rhapsody are pretty decent. Well, those are my six cents.
Shos

[shostakovich]

And, oh yes, I forgot to second OT's choice of the concerto.

[DavidS]

David,

I agree, the Symphonic Dances are great, but they're the only music I can honestly say I like from West Side Story. Were they part of the musical, or are they symphonic pieces based on music from the musical?

I suppose, ultimately, it could be said that all music is 'serious', but we don't take all of it seriously, or that we take some of it too seriously. Barfle's probably right, music exists to entertain us. If it succeeds in doing that, it's 'serious' music. If not, it's noise.

V/R
Shapley

Yes, I suppose what we are agreeing on is that one of the beauties of musical activity and creativeness is in the facility to take a most banal little theme and develop it, decorate it, arrange it or whatever - not forgetting the performer's contribution - and produce the most amazing effects. That's what Ravel did to Bolero , and what happened to Bernstein's Symphonic Dances.
Not long ago I heard a musical appreciation lecture + demonstrated pieces in 2 parts:
(a) The Duet from Sampson & Delilah
(b) American in Paris
I gained remarkable insights into the depth and complexity of both compositions.

[Shapley]

Shos,

Thanks. I believe I have exerpts from Porgy and Bess on a Gershwin LP that was a 'selection of the month' from the Columbia House Music Club back in the '70s. As I said at the start of this thread, I didn't think much of Gershwin, so I probably gave it no more than a single listen before socking it away on the shelf.

I've heard various songs from the Opera since, most commonly Summertime and It Ain't Necessarily So by various performers. Perhaps I'll give Porgy and Bess another try.

I looked through Barnes and Noble and Amazon for Gershwin's complete works, and found a Slatkin set that sounds like the one OT mentioned, as well as a couple others. I also found a couple of 2 CD sets of "Greatest Hits" that include the Concerto in F and the Cuban Overture along with the usual pieces (American in Paris, Summertime, etc.). I may have to order one of those.

V/R
Shapley

[BigJon@Work]

I'm very tired of the Cuban Overture. It just doesn't fit with the rest of b.com's play-list. It's becoming my Bolero.

[Shapley]

I like the Cuban Overture. I haven't gotten tired of it yet.

That being said, there is a lot of repetition here on B.com. I think this is due to a lack of fresh requests. I suggest we all go through our music collections and make a list of works we haven't heard in a while, but which we enjoy, and then request one of them every day. It might bring some increased variety to the playlist.

V/R
Shapley

[BigJon@Work]

Yes, please!

[Marye]

The only thing I like about Gershwin is Oscar Levant.