Poll: Most under rated Beethoven symphony

[bignaf]

Beethoven had very limited exposure (and possibly none, I think the story about him seeing Schubert songs was told by the unreliable Anton Schindler) to Schubert's music. so he doesn't count.
I think Rossini is a better composer than Cherubini, that's why the limitation on opera. It would be very difficult for the composer of Fidelio to like The Barber of Seville. he had some cordial comments about Rossini, but privately seemed to despise him, which is natural, considering his concept of opera.
I don't think you can say Hummel is clearly and widely regarded as better than Cherubini.
In any case, no one of the time really stands out as being much better than Cherubini.

[Bones]

The question was simply which of Beethoven's contemporaries was better than Cherubini. One simple answer to that is Schubert, who was unquestionably superior in every way to Cherubini.

[Catmando]

And Schubert died at a very young age. I believe he was 31 or 32 years old! I'm sure he had alot of unfulfilled potential, much like Mozart dying at age 35.

I can't comment on Cherubini as I do not know his work. I just know I enjoy Schubert alot.

[bignaf]

The question was simply which of Beethoven's contemporaries was better than Cherubini. One simple answer to that is Schubert, who was unquestionably superior in every way to Cherubini.

obviously you're right, but my discussion is regarding shos's position that Beethoven was a poor critic because he belived Cherubini to be the greatest composer of his time.

[Bones]

[Thanks, Bones. That looks like the best answer. I think Hummel was pretty well regarded. I'm not sure why the restriction on opera composers. Cherubini was one. Others were Salieri, Rossini, Weber, Spohr. Maybe the last 3 hit their stride after Beethoven answered the question.
Shos

Weber died before Beethoven.

[Bones]

Beethoven had very limited exposure (and possibly none, I think the story about him seeing Schubert songs was told by the unreliable Anton Schindler) to Schubert's music. so he doesn't count.
I think Rossini is a better composer than Cherubini, that's why the limitation on opera. It would be very difficult for the composer of Fidelio to like The Barber of Seville. he had some cordial comments about Rossini, but privately seemed to despise him, which is natural, considering his concept of opera.
I don't think you can say Hummel is clearly and widely regarded as better than Cherubini.
In any case, no one of the time really stands out as being much better than Cherubini.

Supposedly, Beethoven said of Schubert, "Truly, there is in Schubert a divine spark." Also, there are records in Beethoven's conversation books that Schubert called on him at his Vienna residence, although it is unclear whether Beethoven actually met with him. There are some reports (probably false) that Schubert actually visited and chatted with Beethoven on his deathbed. Schubert was, in fact, a torch bearer at Beethoven's funeral.

In any event, it's hard to imagine that the two men lived in Vienna for all those years and Beethoven would not have heard of Schubert. Vienna wasn't that big of a town in those days.

[bignaf]

Schubert had more of a cult following in his lifetime. then became extremely popular in the late 1840's. While Beethoven probably heard of him, it is not likely he paid him much attention, or even saw any of his music.
It is very likely that Schindler edited Beethoven's conversation books during the Schubertmania to incluide the Schubert reference.

[Bones]

It's true that Schindler made up half the stuff he wrote about Beethoven and cannot be quoted as a reliable source, without verification.

Still, Vienna was a musical town and everything musical was followed by musicians. Schubert was well know in his own circle and largely ignored by everyone else. But, being ignored is not the same as being unknown, and I think it's pretty likely that Beethoven was familiar with him.

[bignaf]

well, this will need some real research... but I bet people did it before. you can't know what to trust.
Schindler stinks! (some of you know why this is funny).

[shostakovich]

Sure naf. By the way, I looked back at the info on when Beethoven was asked who, besides himself, was the greatest composer. It was 1817.
Shos

[bignaf]

that's early for schubert, as far as being known in Vienna, since I think he just came back from teaching some girls of some nobleman out in the country at the time...

[Bones]

that's early for schubert, as far as being known in Vienna, since I think he just came back from teaching some girls of some nobleman out in the country at the time...

If you're referring to the gig where he taught the daughters of Count Johann Esterhazy, 1817 was even before that.

[Bones]

As for Beethoven's opinions on other composers, he thought Handel was the greatest of all time. He said "I would kneel at his grave with uncovered head."

He also had a very high opinion of Mozart and frequently spoke of him in gushing terms. He said, "I am one of the greatest admirers of Mozart's genius." However, he didn't like Mozart's piano pieces nor Don Giovanni.

He thought Weber sought to achieve a "reputation of geniality." Also, when Rossini tried to meet with him, Beethoven successfully ducked him.

Of Cherubini he said, "my ideas are in perfect accord with his."

I can find nothing where spoke of Haydn's music.

He greatly admired the piano sonatas of Clementi and had copies of all of them in his small music collection.

At this point, I got bored of researching , so I stopped.

[bignaf]

I know he also really admired Bach, especially towards the end of his life. and this is before the Mendelsohnian Bach revival.
about Mozart Cm concerto he said something like: we shall never be able to write something like that.
From what I recall he loved don Giovanni, but utterly despised Cosi Fan tutte. Beethoven didn't understand other people's humor. though he could produce plenty of it in his scherzos.
It is pretty well known he hated Haydn ever since Haydn was his "teacher."

[Catmando]

He still did hold Haydn, as an artist, in very high esteem.

I'm currently reading, "Beethoven: The Music and the Life", by Lewis Lockwood. (Terrific book). In the novel, they almost depict it as a love/hate relationship between Haydn & Beethoven.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Schindler stinks! (some of you know why this is funny).

FleaEx will deliver soap, deodorant, laundry detergent, and shoe spray shortly.

[violinist4ever]

So, I read this post super late... but i'm going to answer it even though it's over now....lol.... My least favorite Beethoven Symphony is his 8th. I have been lucky enough to have performed all of his symphonys except for One and Two, and while all of them are very good, my least fav. was the 8th.

[shostakovich]

Mine, too. It seems to be an attempt at humor by a man who is out of his element. He is also out of his element in vocal music, IMO. The Missa Solemnis may be an exception.

Why is it your least favorite, v4e?
Shos

[violinist4ever]

Hi, Shos! How are you? I'm not sure why the 8th is my least favorite, it just is. I also feel like it was shorter than the rest of his symphonies....I could be wrong on that.....it might not have been shorter by much, but it felt like it. Maybe you're right with the "attempt at humor" and maybe that's part of the reason why I don't like it as much as the others...I'm not sure. I am tempted to listen to it again just to refresh my memory.

[shostakovich]

Oh, don't do that. You might like it, considering your lowered expectations. That would never do.