NOEL .

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NOEL .

Postby lliam » Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:02 pm

Hi everybody, what a fantastic forum.<P>I would just like to wish you all, A Wonderful Christmas And A Happy New Year.<BR>Lliam.
Lliam.

I spent 90% of my money on women and drink. The rest I wasted - George Best
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Re: NOEL .

Postby ~Leslie » Sat Dec 23, 2000 9:50 pm

Illiam, Peter, Serge, everyone in this site, I wish you all a very merry, and may you hear joyous strains of harmonic enjoyment in your hearts and ears during this festive season. <BR>~cheers~,<BR>~Leslie
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Re: NOEL .

Postby Peter » Sun Dec 24, 2000 6:22 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ~Leslie:<BR><B>Illiam, Peter, Serge, everyone in this site, I wish you all a very merry, and may you hear joyous strains of harmonic enjoyment in your hearts and ears during this festive season. <BR>~cheers~,<BR>~Leslie</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Like I said in the "other place", likewise to you & yours, Leslie.<P>Peter x<P>(Best wishes also to Serge, Shos, Michael & everyone).
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Re: NOEL .

Postby ~Leslie » Mon Dec 25, 2000 3:11 pm

Would anyone in here care to enlighten me regarding Schubert's Ave Maria? I just heard a version on the radio by San Francisco guitarist, Tuck Andress. This tune is so lovely, and I'd like to know the circumstances that prompted Franz to write it. ~Leslie
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Re: NOEL .

Postby shostakovich » Tue Dec 26, 2000 7:35 pm

Thanks for the Christmas wishes, Lliam. I've been thinking about you and wondering what treasures you've uncovered in your library so far.<P>Hi Leslie. I can't answer how Ave Maria came to be. I don't think Schubert was especially religious. But I CAN tell you about Rachmaninov's Prelude in C# minor. It dogged him throughout his long career. He was obliged to play it at recitals and for encores. He felt it overshadowed some of his greater works. When a lady enthused, "Tell me, Mr. Rachmaninov, what was your inspiration for the prelude in C# minor?", he responded dryly, "Forty rubles, madam".
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Re: NOEL .

Postby ~Leslie » Tue Dec 26, 2000 8:32 pm

I like a good sense of humor. : )<BR>Thanks for the anecdote, Shost. ~
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Re: NOEL .

Postby lliam » Wed Dec 27, 2000 10:58 am

Hi Shos,<BR> everything you told me is in my local Library, all I need to do now is just take the Advice you gave me, one step at a time. At the moment I am listening to a double CD called THE CLASSIC EXPERIENCE The 33 most Popular Classics. There is a small booklet with the CD's and it gives a very short Bio on each Composer their is a Hive of information for example I didn't know that the composer of 'Fanfare for the Common Man' was Aaron COPLAND(born 1900)although I have heard this tune many times over the years. And that the Conductor Eugene Goosens, conductor of the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra asked several composers to write patriotic fanfares after the attack on pearl Harbour and the most famous of these was Copeland's 'Fanfare for the Common man'(later used in his Third Symphony). Shos am I learning or am I learning?<BR> Thanks again Shos.<BR>Lliam.<P>
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Re: NOEL .

Postby shostakovich » Thu Dec 28, 2000 12:07 am

It seems you picked a perfect CD set to work on, Lliam. Happy listening.
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Re: NOEL .

Postby Peter » Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:23 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ~Leslie:<BR><B>Would anyone in here care to enlighten me regarding Schubert's Ave Maria? I just heard a version on the radio by San Francisco guitarist, Tuck Andress. This tune is so lovely, and I'd like to know the circumstances that prompted Franz to write it. ~Leslie</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hi Leslie,<BR>Next to Beethoven, Schubert is my favourite composer, & of his 700 songs, none is more beautiful than Ave Maria. It was written in April 1825, & was inspired by Sir Walter Scott`s novel, "The Lady of the Lake". It is the character Ellen`s prayer to the Virgin Mary put into song; indeed, its full title is Ellen`s Song III (Ave Maria), D.839.<BR>[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 12-28-2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 12-29-2000).]
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Re: NOEL .

Postby Peter » Fri Dec 29, 2000 5:56 pm

Just in case anyone is curious re the above, Ellen Douglas IS The Lady of the Lake, & following the success of Scott`s novel (1810), there is now, in Lake Katrine, in The Trossachs of Scotland, Ellen`s Isle. And very beautiful it is, too. Image
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Re: NOEL .

Postby ~Leslie » Sat Dec 30, 2000 3:56 pm

Peter, I appreciate yr efforts, and I admit all this talk of the mysterious Lady of the Lake, Ellen has got me intrigued. Image One thing for sure, it affected Schubert, profoundly.<P>There's alot more to this isn't there? Like a story within a story?<P>Since my Latin is nearly non-existent, care to clue me in, or point in the direction I should go to find the answer?~<P>
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Re: NOEL .

Postby Peter » Sat Dec 30, 2000 6:29 pm

I`m afraid that there`s no great story within a story here, Les. The Latin words to the original hymn, Ave Maria (Hail Mary), date from the mid-16th century. Scott, in his novel, used a close translation of this as Ellen`s prayer to the Virgin Mother; the book was then, in 1825, translated into German for that particular market; and it was this version which so captivated Schubert. Franz`s song, `Ellen`s Third Song`, was composed, in German, for solo voice with solo piano; he never rearranged the work.<P>In recent times (the radio and gramophone age), it has become usual practice to heavily orchestrate the music, and for the singer to deliver the LATIN text to Schubert`s melody, which was never the intention! Funnily enough, the Latin words do fit the music, so perhaps this could be called poetic licence?<P>Schubert was not particularly religious, but he did admit that after writing his song, his perception of all things holy was changed for ever.<P>Leslie, I don`t have the English translation to hand, but if you search the web for ELLENS GESANG III, I`m sure you`ll find it okay. Or of course, you can read the book Image If you get stuck, let me know, and I`ll e-mail you the info.
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Re: NOEL .

Postby ~Leslie » Sat Dec 30, 2000 7:50 pm

Well, I searched and found this:<P>In 1825 Schubert became acquainted with the poems of a Scottish poet, Sir Walter Scott through the German translation. Since Scott was a very popular poet and novelist, Schubert thought that if he could publish his song compositions with both German and English text, he might be better known outside Austria. With that in mind, Schubert set seven of the thirteen songs embedded in Lady of the Lake by Scott, which was first published in 1810. The seven songs are five solo songs (three Ellen's songs, Norman's song and Malcolm Graeme's song-Lay of the Imprisoned Huntsman) and two choruses, one for women, Coronach, and the other for men, Boat Song. These seven songs are not the only ones by Scott Schubert set to music; his other settings of Walter Scott's poems are: Lied der Anne Lyle, D 830 (from Montrose) and Gesang der Norna, D 831 (from The Pirate). <P>Synopsis of Lady of the Lake<BR>The verse epic of six cantos unfolds in the Highland of Perthshire at the lake, Loch Katrine, and involves a battle between King James V of Scotland and Highland clans. King James V was known to walk around in disguise to find out what was going on in his kingdom. Using this historical fact as a basis, Scott built a story in which the king, disguised as a knight with a name of James Fitz-James, receives hospitality in the home of Roderick Dhu, a Highland clan chief. <P>The King, while hunting on the bank of Loch Katrine, gets lost. There he runs into a young woman, Ellen, the daughter of the outlawed Lord James of Douglas. Ellen brings him to the home of Roderick Dhu. The King falls in love with her, but he is not the only suitor to Ellen. The others are Roderick Dhu and Malcolm Graeme, whom Ellen loves. Because of threat of a royal attack on the Highlanders, Roderick summons his clans. Douglas, meanwhile, decides to surrender himself to the King. The King, disguised as James Fitz-James again, proposes to Ellen, but Ellen refuses and confesses her love for another. He gives her a signet ring that would allow her to ask for a boon from the King. A fight between the King and Roderick takes place, in which Roderick becomes wounded. Ellen goes to Stirling Castle to beg the King for her father’s pardon with her signet ring. The King and Douglas are reconciled. Roderick dies of his wounds, and Ellen marries Malcolm Graeme, who has been a prisoner at the castle. <P>Ellen's Songs<BR>Ellen’s first and second songs that Schubert set to music appear in Canto I of the poem as ones which Ellen sings as the disguised King is led to his bed for the night. Musically, Ellen’s first song is in rondo form with the design A-B-A-C-B-A. The music alternates between light martial rhythms and magic harp- like sounds. Ellen’s second song has the A-B-A’ design with the sound of the hunting horn. The first song has a lullaby-type quality alternating with martial rhythms. <P>Ellen’s third song is the famous "Ave Maria." The song is actually titled "Hymn to the Virgin" and is located in Canto III in Scott’s Lady of the Lake. Canto III describes the summons to battle made by Rhoderick Dhu with the Fiery Cross. The cross is passed around from Ellen's Island on Loch Katrine and back through several lochs and mountains in the region. Loch Katrine is not a fictionary lake but a real one, currently used as a water reservoir for the city of Glasgow. The mountains surrounding the lake are typical Highland mountains with rugged rocks being exposed on the sides and tops. Ellen sings the "Ave Maria" in a cave on the side of a mountain called Ben Venue on the southern shore of the lake, fearing the safety of herself and her father in the impending battle between the Highlanders and the King of Scotland. <P><BR>
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Re: NOEL .

Postby shostakovich » Sat Dec 30, 2000 8:08 pm

But isn't this all common knowlegdge, Leslie? <P>Just kidding. It's that damned sense of humor getting the best of me again. In truth, super reportage.<BR>Shos.
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Re: NOEL .

Postby ~Leslie » Sat Dec 30, 2000 10:28 pm

only to Alex Trebek and you Shost, Image I'm still trying to figure out how Ellen's prayer turned into a Christmas favorite, played and sung by everyone under the sun, cept maybe Celine. Ye Gods! I hope she doesn't get in on it. Say, since you probably have the score sitting around, what key is it in, man?~
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Re: NOEL .

Postby shostakovich » Sat Dec 30, 2000 11:34 pm

At the risk of blowing any image I might have built up, I don't read scores. I used to follow little line scores that identified themes in larger compositions. I'm also a bit tone deaf. I couldn't tell A flat from Z sharp. But I'm sure it's a very nice key.<BR> Happy New year, Leslie. <BR> Shos.
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Re: NOEL .

Postby Peter » Sun Dec 31, 2000 7:30 am

Leslie, It`s in B flat. I can understand the Christmas connection (Virgin Mary & all that), but what I don`t get is why you hear it so often at weddings.
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Re: NOEL .

Postby ~Leslie » Sun Dec 31, 2000 9:12 am

Thank you for your insightful input, Peter and Shos. Peter, I think B flat is a struggle for the gtr, but not impossible. The reason for it being played at weddings, is because it was a prayer for protection before battle. <g> <P>Shos, mein Gott, ye had me fooled, I thought you were a conductor. I pictured you as a man who had <BR>combed thru numerous scores, practicing many emotive gestures and posturing, possibly hurling insults, epithets, and yr baton at members of the orchestra. Now yr tell me yr partially deaf.........Next thing I know for an encore, you'll be tellin me you have a leonine mane of hair, and a German accent. Image ~
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Re: NOEL .

Postby shostakovich » Sun Dec 31, 2000 2:12 pm

Nein, liebschen, das haar ist kaput.<BR>So much for my college year of German --- the accent is barely noticeable now. But this gives me a chance to say something about a musician who is unknown as such, one of my two memorable teachers (the other made calculus fun and because of him I changed my major to math). My old German teacher once spent a period presenting a recording of Beethoven's 7th. He spent another playing the piano part of Chopin's first concerto on the school piano. He was and is my kind of guy. Before a teaching career he was part of history as a translator during the Nuremburg trials. Since retirement he wrote a short book on Mahler as misfit in society. I just found out in a Christmas card that he and his wife are going to Vienna to present a paper on Tchaikovsky and Mahler. I think he's still in his 70s. Now there's a life well spent.<BR>I hope my association with such a man lifts me a little bit in your esteem again.<BR>Freuliche neues Jahr (I hope. Can't find my German dictionary).<BR>Shos.
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Re: NOEL .

Postby ~Leslie » Sun Dec 31, 2000 8:47 pm

Shos, there something wonderful about teachers that can inspire us to climb up beyond the lowest branches of the tree, and put us in the learning flow zone, that propels us, changes the direction, and course of our lives.<P>I have a Jeopardy riddle for you now,<BR> oh mathmetician:<BR> <BR> <BR>This master was the pivotal point for the<BR> beginning of science and music. <BR> <BR>He traveled to Egypt to study their geometry, learned numbers and<BR> proportions from the Phoenicians, and became educated in astronomy by the<BR>Chaldeans .<P> <BR>The philosophy was based on dualism, and its system was merged<BR> with numerology and math. <BR> <BR>They did not distinguish differences between number, music, and the<BR> cosmos.<BR> they identified them, music was number, cosmos was music. <BR> <BR>In his philosophy he classified music as follows:<BR> <BR>musica instrumentalis - ordinary lyre or pipe <BR> <BR>musica humanis - the continuous unheard music in the human organism; the<BR> harmonious<BR> or unharmonious resonance between body and<BR> soul<BR> <BR>musica mundana - music made by the cosmos itself <BR> <BR>To us they may seem radically different, to him these three types<BR> were all one. <BR> <BR>He considered the laws of music were that which governed the whole universe,<BR> and incorporated<BR> them into his healing practice.<BR> <BR>His most significant discovery in music was the arithmetic relationship<BR> between harmonic intervals. <BR> <BR>The somewhat disputed folktale has it that as he passed a brazier's shop, he<BR> overheard how different weighted hammers produced varying tones on the same<BR> anvil. <BR> <BR>For example: the 8 lb. hammer and the 12 lb. hammer having a 2:3 ratio,<BR> produced a perfect 5th;<BR> the 6 lb. hammer and the 12 lb. hammer, a 1:2 ratio, producing an 8ve.<P>He also invented the monochord. <BR> <P>Who am I talking about, Shost?<P>
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