Attending a concert and behaviour? American Style?

[DavidEB310]

For those of you who attend concerts...has anyone noticed that people in general don't know how to behave or dress appropriately?<P>Of course there is subtle chatting, cell phones, screaming kids, and more. The concert hall is treated no differently at times than a sticky floor and seat movie theater.<P>As for the dress code, denim jeans or corduroy just don't cut it as proper dress. Have we gone casual so long as that no one knows how to wear a coat and tie, and don't try to mention suit or tux.<P>On another tangent, I've noticed the same for Church services. The new proclamation is that "as long as people are going, it doesn't matter how they dress."<P>What happened to proper etiquette and style?<P>Is the above an American thing? Is it the same in Europe? Asia? etc...<p>[ 11-13-2002: Message edited by: DavidEB310 ]

[priya978]

I really don't think that people care for that kind of properness anymore, yes farting in a place other than your home, people mind those kinds of things, but other than that you can't expect much. We are a lot different than other countries, we just dress how we dress that day, most of the time we put on that outfit it for comforbility, we aren't trying to impress someone anymore. Plus we're so busy as Americans, in general, when we do get time to relax and attend a concert the least of our worries are how to dress, there are a lot of other important things on our minds. I think those days of etiquette are over, just do what you do, what you want, be an individual, that's it.

[barfle]

I've found that generally amphitheater concerts are much more casual than those in a symphony hall.<P>When the Pacific Symphony Orchestra first started playing in the Orange County Performing Arts Center, people wore everthing from tuxedos to sweat suits. They pretty much calmed down to slacks and sport coats (what I always wore), but they would occasionally get a newbie who just didn't know any better.<P>The worst problem I encountered was the chatting, however. Some folks just don't get the idea that paying $65 to listen to an orchestra DOESN'T mean I want to hear their commentary.

[DavidEB310]

eugene,<P>not to put down the younger generation, but the attitude that you can do what you want as long as you're comfortable with it doesn't cut it!<P>The 25 and below-somethings also think that imitating JACKASS is cool including setting themselves on fire. <P>I'm really exhausted by the idea that people feel they can do what they want as long as they don't break the law.<P>There's a matter of tradition, manners, and just plain consideration that seem to be getting lost by society in general.<P>However, everyone jumps on the Political Correctness bandwagon when their cause is threatened. Gimme a Break! A person can't have it both ways!<P>P.S. Using the fact that we have busy lives and other things on our minds IS NO EXCUSE NOT TO HAVE MANNERS!<p>[ 11-13-2002: Message edited by: DavidEB310 ]

[ABaffy]

I couldn't agree more with DAVIDEB310 when it comes to manners. talking during a concert (and also in a movie theater) is the height of rudeness. I pay hard-earned money to listen to music - not commentary.<P>As far as dress is concerned, I agree that we are going to far with the trend toward casualness. There is a distinction between "matinee" performances and evening performances however. Casual dress would be more appropriate at the afternoon concert or recital. Traditions are important because they reinforce a certain type of style and atmosphere. At the least a coat and tie should be worn at an evening concert. This shows respect for the composer, conductor, and performers. It also lends an air of sophistication: Why not dress in a sophisticated manner when listening to sophisticated music?

[thornhill]

I feel that when an orchestra performs, that it is a special event. Unlike a movie which will be shown at a theater multiple times a day, orchestras will give 3-4 performances of a specific concert and that's it. Thus, wearing "nice" clothes is a sign of respect to the event, the orchestra and composer. It's the same reason why we dress up for something like a funeral or wedding. <P>At the Philadelphia Orchestra, most people wear what the wore to work. So that could range from a suit and tie down to khaki pants and a dress shirt. There are always the occasional few who wear jeans and a T-shirt. Someone even wore an Eric Lindros hokey jersey last year (Philadelphia hates Eric "Glass Jaw" Lindros).<P>Personally, I normal wear a dress shirt (designer), khaki pants and dress shoes (some times with a tie either knotted or un-knotted, and sometimes a sweeter in the winter).<P>Dress codes are normally dictated by the social economic class of the majority of the season ticket holders. If there's a large block of people always wearing a suites at every concert, people will dress up to fit in. I figure it's enough that I can blend with the best dressed. <P>Us for the dress code in Europe, it various greatly. Even in places like La Scala or the Salzburg Festival, people wear everything from designer clothes to shorts and t-shirts.<P>The one valid argument about dressing up (which was raised in a NY Times article in Aug.) is that lax dress codes help break perceptions about who is able to enjoy classical music and the expenses associated with it.<p>[ 11-13-2002: Message edited by: thornhill ]

[DavidEB310]

Baffy and Thornhill -- ABSOLUTELY!<P>Nice point about Weddings and Funerals too. That was exactly my point with Church services as well.<P>Thornhill, just wanted to mention that I'm a (Drumroll please...) New York Rangers fan! Hey, I do love your city of Brotherly Love however! My wife and I spent a long weekend in the city last April. South Street is a hoot! Had some great wings at (an) THE Irish Pub downtown. When I ordered a dozen (EXTRA HOT), I expected split wings making up the count like in Upstate New York where I lived for about a decade; I never expected 12 GIANT WHOLE WINGS. I was full, but they were excellent!

[thornhill]

DavidEB310,<P>I hope you enjoy Eric (and his father) as much as we did. <P>Next time your on South Street, checkout the Pink Rose on 4th and Bainbridge (one block south of South Street). Best pastry shop on the east cost, no hyperbole.

[DavidEB310]

thornhill,<P>GRACIAS!

[puddin tayne]

Greetings to all!<BR>I am new to Beethoven bulletin board so please forgive my intrusion. I had to respond to this one! I am a single working mom struggling to make ends meet. Last year I had the opportunity to see Don Quixote in Toronto, performed by the National Ballet Company of Canada. Unfortunatly all I had to wear were my best jeans and a nice sweater. If I had to choose between ballet tickets and nice clothes...well the choice would be the tickets. Please do not judge us because of what we wear...my appreciation and respect for classical music and dance are in my heart...(and my jeans I guess). I intend to fully enjoy ballet and symphony when I get the opportunity, and share these with my son...regardless of what is in my closet. thanks all.

[monkeymd2b]

I must say that first of all, I'm sure you didn't think that everyone in my age group (the 25 and under) thinks highly of Jackass. In regards to the diminishing etiquette and dress at concerts, I sort of agree that the dress code is being lowered but that does make a concert more inviting to the newbies. I guess to address this concern, the New Orleans symphony has a series of concerts called "Beethoven in Blue Jeans" where the dress code requires nothing more extravagant than a shirt and your comfy jeans. I went last year to a performance with a friend and we still dressed up because we grew up with the notion that one simply doesn't wear jeans to a classical music concert and we felt out of place because everyone there apparently didn't have the same issues we had with the concept. I can understand why people may show up in casual dress to a concert . I like to relax at such events and if I had to wear some uncomfortable dress or suit and tie, that would impinge slightly on my experience. To any musicians that find casual dress insulting...let it go! They're here because they want to hear you play and they don't clap (or any other show of their appreciation for your hard work) any less than those in the suit and tie. I had a recital once that was attended by my nurse friends wearing scrubs because they made the effort to come right after work and the fact that they did that for me was more important than what they were wearing.<BR>Now the coughing and talking...talking can be controlled but not so for coughing. As I have learned from my pharmacology class, even the best antitussives on the market can't completely inhibit that cough reflex that exists to keep you breathing. And if I bought a ticket months in advance, I'm not going to stay home just cause I have a cough...unless it's really bad. I personally had issues with this woman who seemed to take forever to stop fussing with her cough drop wrapper.

[treebeau]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DavidEB310:<BR><STRONG>...Hey, I do love your city of Brotherly Love however! My wife and I spent a long weekend in the city last April...</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Howdy guys,<P>Reminds me of a radio call-in contest I once heard of:<BR>First place winner got a one week, all expenses paid trip to Philadelphia.<BR>Second place got two weeks.<P> <BR>Regards,<BR>Tim B.

[Shapley]

Hello to everyone.<P>I hope you don't mind some feedback from a new member. I agree that rudeness is certainly on the rise in the past several decades. The last ten years or so seem (to me at least) to have shown an unusually high rate of increase. It is everywhere around us, in church, school, the workplace, and, yes, the concert hall. Interestingly enough, there is a move back towards civility springing up. People are beginning to speak out, and schools are even starting to teach etiquette once again. However, it will take years to undo the level that has been allowed to permeate our culture.<P>As for the level of dress, that is a somewhat different matter. I grew up in the midwest, in a rural part of Missouri. Informality is the custom there. As America has become more affluent, we of the "great unwashed" have found ourselves able to travel and attend functions that were out of our financial reach only a few decades ago. At the same time, cultural institutions have made the effort to expand their audiences to include those of us in a lower economic spectrum than were previously known to attend such events. Many of us never have, and never will, own a tuxedo or a suit that isn't picked up "off the rack" at the local department store. This doesn't make our love for good music any less valid than anyone elses, nor our respect for the musicians who perform it any less. We choose to dress in the manner to which we are accustomed.<P>Respectfully,<P>Shapley R. Hunter

[monkeymd2b]

Teaching etiquette in school? Must be the private schools since many public schools don't even have the money to properly teach the basics (my school in honolulu didn't have instrument lessons which appear to be basic in many mainland schools). Some of the kids I tutor in new orleans aren't even being taught grammar using the terms most of us are familiar with (ie. a noun to them is "the naming part" and they give you blank stares when you say things like noun, verb, etc). But this school system is probably one of the worst. My elementary school days (ah...the 80s) didn't include etiquette lessons and I'm not so sure if it would have mattered if I had them since those things are only useful if practiced continually. A majority of kids will go home and maybe try out those lessons once or twice before completely abandoning the skills because their family most likely won't be interested in following up those lessons. And then as adults, they'll learn those lessons the hard way, by embarrassment but it will stick alot longer than some random person coming into their classroom when they were 10. Yeah, we've all been there! I would really like to see more city orchestras put on free events for the younger kids where kids can learn the social rules of going to a concert and fall in love with making music on their own.

[barfle]

Hey all you new guys, thanks for chiming in. The more the merrier!<P>I never owned a tux, heck I never even rented one after I got out of High School. I mostly went to concerts, ballets, and operas in slacks, dress shirt, tie, and sport coat. That includes the times when I was in some of the world's more prestigious halls (Covent Garden, Kirov, Sydney Opera House) and I never felt either over or under dressed for the occasion.<P>If you don't have clothes that are that nice, then you should probably wear the best ones you have. If you go to church, wear the same clothes you would wear then.

[priya978]

I was speaking of clothes noot manners! get that straight. Plus sorry, but we don't want to be all up-tight in uncomfortable, tight suits, etc. This generation is obviously more level-headed on that point. What the points of going to a concert and sitting there for hours in an unconfortable outfit that bugs the shit out of you, you just can't enjoy it then. As for tradition, ha! Tradition is a things that ruins our process of imagination, it doesn't let us go further in certain areas, it makes us stay back in 1700, when he tradition was made, we are in the 2000s now, c'mon people, let's ditch that crap, that was sooo last century ago. Just do what you do, there will always be someone who doesn't like you because of what you do, REMINDER: I am talking about clothes not etiquette, you'll just have to learn everyone does things differently, and they aren't going to change because one person doesn't like what there wearing. Plus what buisness is it of your's as to if they have a T-Shirt on, or not, you were their to enjoy the music, not to observe and critize a person wardrobe. Over the last year too, I've realized that adults are very stubborn, for example if someone came up to one of you and said for example "What are you wearing that white sweater for, it's all about blue." Would you go home and change, just like adults children are opinionated and just like adults they are not going to change their opinion, so just do what you do, regardless.

[thornhill]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I mostly went to concerts, ballets, and operas in slacks, dress shirt, tie, and sport coat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>barfle,<P>That's probably more than what most people wear world wide to concerts (certainly more than me at least ).<P>eugene a.,<P>This isn't about tradition, but as a few of us have pointed out, respect. As barfle said, you don't have to go out and buy a suit for a concert, but at least wear the nicest clothes you own.<p>[ 11-13-2002: Message edited by: thornhill ]

[priya978]

Yeah, but David sems to think that everyone should wear a coat and a tie, and that's not what I'm, not to mention everyone else in my generation, is all about.

[davechristiansen]

well, the gloves are off now.<P>though, i too, often bemoan a loss of courtesy and respect in my fellow man, i think that is a separate subject than concert attire. turning off your cell phone and whispering loudly to your neighbor are obvious rude-isms that should be strictly avoided (still, i wonder how many of us complaining about them are occasionally the offenders). <P>however, clapping between movements and what to wear (while both issues sensitive to time place and circumstance) are just holdovers from a sort of cultural fascism that contribute to the umpopularity of classical music and so-called high culture. <P>kudos to puddin tayne, monkeymd2b, shapley and others, standing up for their worth as concertgoers. respect for the music and the performers is exhibited in behavior, not dress, and any unyielding expectations (on either side of the podium) are just symptoms of backwards priorities, if not downright filthy elitism. did anyone notice how a few participants in the discussion defending looser dress codes actually apologized to the others before stating their case? i think that's an obvious sign of their feeling inferior or unworthy in this "classical" sphere. <P>it also reminds me of another "classical" attitude that i find particularly loathsome... the representation of classical listeners as possessing superior taste to listeners of other types of music (which carries with it the necessary implication that classical listeners are better people than others). what absolute nonsense! the merit in a piece of music or an object of culture exists as much in the participant's willingness to judge it on its own terms, as it does in some sort of "absolute" value. what good is Beethoven's "brotherhood of man" if it is guarded on all sides by well-dressed, silent penguins endeavoring to stave off the "disrespect" of the "unwashed masses". <P>i thought, in some small part, that Beethoven Radio was meant to serve as an antidote to that sort of stuffy nonsense that discourages the "uncultured" from participating. <P>whew... i feel a little better now. this reminds me of a story...<P>i attended a rehearsal once, for a concert of 20th century chamber music. during the first half there was an almost unbearably quiet and delicate piece for viola and cello by Louis Andriessen that was rather difficult not to disturb (if only by breathing too loudly). at some point during the 10 or 15 minutes the piece was going on, someone burst through the doors in the back of the hall and made his way to a seat directly behind me. in the time it took him to find a seat and sit down, he continually rustled a plastic shopping bag, making it almost impossible to hear the music. after what seemed like several minutes of this, i turned around to see what kind of moron was making all this noise, and it turned out to be the composer himself! (and, no, Shos, it was not "part of the piece")<P>davec

[priya978]

Agree with you on everything, funny story too! Ha! Did you talk to him, did you get his autograph?