Roll Over Beethoven

[JasonK]

Alright,<P>Since we have had spirited conversation on other threads in this area, let us discuss the pro's and con's of classical, pop, jazz, blues and other musical genres here.... Let this be the haven for classical inspired discussions of Barry Mainlow, Muskrat Love, Bessie Smith, Sarah Vaughn, Jim Morrison and the whole gang...Beatle bashers, come get some! Just Bring it!!!

[serge urtizberea]

You had better be joking. I am not even kidding, Jason. Do NOT bastardize this forum with discussions about the worth of Dr. Dre or Eminem or Fred or Wes or DJ Lethal or anyone else in that "alternative" band Limp B. God knows I deal with enough talk of pop music with my friends and MuchMusic (in Canada, unless we have satellite, we don't get MTV). I come HERE to avoid all that. The forum was just FINE before this idea came up, and we will all be better people if we forget it ever existed.

[JasonK]

You think this is bad, my man....just wait till I open the Three Stooges forum...I also play Beethoven's 9th on the kazoo...I am the Incubus...Don't push me, I am just crazy enough to do it.....<P>King of Cheap Ploys<P>

[barfle]

Hmm, here's something to get the blood boiling, I'm sure. I gave up on top 40 about 1977 or so, about the time of the death of disco. (Am I the first to use that word on this site??) When Tom Petty started selling records, I realized that my connection with "popular" music was lost for good.<P>Sara Vaughn was delightful, although I was in my 30s before I realized it. I grew up on Elvis, the Wilson brothers (Beach Boys), and the other rock n' rollers of the day. I admit to an appreciation of the ballads, and doo-wop is an art form I'll love the rest of my life as well.<P>I believe all art forms have their place. One of the things that makes it "art" is that someone enjoys it. Some people believe that it's not art unless it's studied to boredom, which is probably why so many kids never got to experience the music of the masters without the pressure of having to understand it. At least that's my experience. A few music "teachers" took the joy out of music and replaced it with the drudgery of practicing chords.<P>That being said, I'm going to irritate Serge by stating that rap is an art form. It doesn't mean you have to like it or even tolerate it. It just means that it gives some people pleasure. You don't have to agree or even understand their opinion, just like I don't understand why some people like to eat liver. My own opinion is that "rap music" is an oxymoron. One thing it ain't is music. <P>Yeah, I like the Beatles. Yeah, I like the Beach Boys. Yeah, I even like Mantovani and Englebert Humperdinck (both of 'em). Yeah, I believe Jazz is music and I enjoy it. I will probably earn the ridicule of my fellow members by stating in print on the world wide web that I like a lot of disco!<P>Roll over, Beethoven? Yeah, I like Chuck Berry. The bottom line is that there's enough music out there (even if you don't think "music" is an accurate description) to provide anyone who can hear (and even some who can't) with something that makes them feel good.

[~Leslie]

Jason, It was my hope when you brought this topic up, that we could discuss music above<BR>and beyond the usual fare of pop music, and discuss the composers and arrangers of contemporary music that are NOT ordinarily<BR>aired on the radio, or mass produced in nauseating quantities by the recording<BR>industry. <P>Somehow, I feel even more removed from my friends, the classically inclined and the<BR>ones in the<BR>the hip quotient zone.<P>I read the names listed here, and it's enough to make me <BR> weep. I feel like I am reading nominees for the Dave Barry's baddest song Whammies. <BR>Next thing you know someone will be listing Neil Diamond........ <BR>I'm seein' that little RCA dog with his paws over his ears and his eyeballs popping outta his head, with the brass plaque underneath that says: "The Baddy". @~(barf emoticon)<BR>Someone wake me up when it's over.~<BR>

[serge urtizberea]

I don't think rap is not music. It has its distinct part of of the musical readership and is well appreciated (I mean, Dre has five Grammy nominations alone, incl. best album). It is, however, not music that should ever be discussed here. Of course, you see my point, Jason, right?

[~Leslie]

Ludwig, people of this forum, forgive me, I feel another rant coming on.........<P>I am open to alot of music, but here's the rub: <BR> <BR>I believe the recording industry has twisted the direction of music, so much so, that true art is getting replaced by drivel. <P>How they can award angry rock/rap trailer park trash like Eminen at the Grammys, or the latest singing sex kitten laughing all her way to the bank, and call this a contribution to the Arts, is beyond me. <P> How they can acknowledge Kenny G, an endless snorkeling , noodling, , warbling, out of tune sax player, who has the audacity to dub over Louis Armstrong, and call his records jazz, is also beyond me.<P> I went into a record store (3) the other day to buy a phenomenal jazz/ classical fusion record called Oregon in Moscow, and no store had it. The jazz and classical selections in these stores were so sparse, it's barely worth mentioning. <BR> <BR>Instead, all I see is Yanni who is a cheap New Age musician, in the Jazz section, along with Kenny G's ugly poodle head mug. <BR> <BR>All they (these stores) promote now are punky rage & rap bands with trashy mouths about their latest sexploits,<BR>with their biggest virtuosity on their guitars, is to play loud, cacophonic power chords, many times, accompanied by mechanical drums. <BR> <BR>It doesn't help either, that a talking head pundit like Wynton Marsalis gets his hands on the likes of Ken Burns, to promote his<BR>evangelistical mainstream jazz doctrine, with the latest PBS documentary series, further deluding the public as to where contemporary music is TODAY, RIGHT NOW.<BR> <BR>It is a disgrace, with no end in sight. <BR> <BR>Couple that with the fact that our country just finished<BR>the closest thing I've ever seen here, to a government Coup de Etat,<BR>securing a corporate ass kisser firmly in place, whose prime directive<BR>is to nurture the palms of the wealthy, promising tax breaks to the same, crying a recession is now in looming on the horizon, <BR>assuring that We the People are headed for plenty more witnessing of the deplorable diminishment of the arts, for the sake<BR>of replaceing it with crap. <BR> <P> <BR>If you wish to relive and revive the good ol days by listening to the Beatles or ?, more power to you and the music that takes you there. <BR> <BR>It is very painful to know that the music I am listening to now is so inaccessible, that only 1% of the population is aware of it, much let alone, grasps it. <BR> <BR>With that, I bid you adieu, and wish you a restful weekend,<P>Les~

[shostakovich]

Barfle, I was glad to see someone distinguishing between rap and music. Of the several basic elements of music (4-7 depending on the book)rhythm AND melody are minimal requirements for anything to be called music. I can't think of any music anywhere on the planet without those two. Even the most basic ritual music of a primitive tribe has both. Rap has rhythm and RHYME. That would make a better case for rap as poetry than as music. (God forbid)<P>Leslie, you turn a nice phrase when you express yourself. I'm ALSO upset at the watering down of musical quality on PBS and NPR. There were a few letters in the Hartford Courant last year about the networks' willingness to abrogate leadership in taste in order to please the public appetite for pablum. The market economy mentality that is largely twisting older ideas of "what's right" into "what sells" has turned too many Americans into self-indulgent, insensitive slobs. And our new president (I still can't figure how he got as much as 50% of the vote) is not likely to change any of that. <P>Sorry for the soap-box stand. If the Beethoven.com crowd grows and demands more appreciation of the classics, we may become the heros that save them for the future generations. We have work to do.<P>

[~Leslie]

Urban poetry, Shos. ~#:^)<BR>Thank you for not flaming the ever lovin' @~&* outta me you ppl, so mellow compared to what I'm used to. <P>There is something I feel rather guilty about, tho. <P>The reason I want to char broil Wynton and his cronies is not because he wants to tell us about the foundation of jazz. Nothing could possibly be further from the truth. <P>It is because they lopped off the last 40 years of jazz history, because they do not think it's jazz. <P>It's not "pure",...... why? <P>They dismiss it because it fused with rock, <BR>orchestration, world, new age, and other styles, and because it utilizes modern electronic instrumentation.<P>Tell me something ppl. If Beethoven were alive today, would he utilize all the means at his disposal? Wasn't Bach's organ just one big dinosaur of a synthesizer? Wasn't the cadenza or spontaneous variations on a theme, what we now think of as improvisation? Part of musical pioneering is to breath new life into the existing forms, to break new ground,...... is it not???<P>I'm interested to hear what you have to say about this............

[JasonK]

Personally, I am not a fan of rap or hip-hop. It is not my genre and I do not see the vast artistic value in sampling...however, I guess, it could be seen as a modern variation on a theme?<P>However, even though I am not a particular fan, I still would not shy away from having an intelligent conversation on the subject or any other musical genre.<P>Leslie, the best thing about a board like this is that you can take the topics anywhere you would like, do not have to be bound by others suggestions. We are open to all topics here.<P>The way I see it, this board and classical music gives us a commonality to eachother, in that we all enjoy the music in the board sense...we should explore other areas of life as well....art, music, literature, the theater...it is all open.<P>For people that think rock or pop have no value....I disagree...I have gotten great joy and inspiration from listening to The Doors "Indian Summer", INXS "Beautiful Girl", Jesus and Mary Chain "Sometimes Always", Beatles "In My Life"....etc!!!<P>They are 3 minute treasures in their own right...and a intelligent discussion is always healthy thing...Remember if you hold to only one school of thought, you label me...and If you label me, you negate me.<BR>

[Scotty]

Well those who would say that songs like Wish You Were Here(Pink Floyd)and Closer To The Heart (Rush)are not good music simply do not have their respective ears open is all........I am not a number, I am a free man..... <BR> Hail to the King Baby!<p>[This message has been edited by Scotty (edited 01-08-2001).]

[sherouse]

Scotty,<P>You will be assimilated - resistance is futile! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scotty:<BR><B>Well those who would say that songs like Wish You Were Here(Pink Floyd)and Closer To The Heart (Rush) simply do not have their respective ears open is all........I am not a number, I am a free man..... </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

[Scotty]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sherouse:<P><BR>You will be assimilated - resistance is futile! <P> [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You can put that in your Van Club.......

[Tim]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ~Leslie:<BR><B><BR>Tell me something ppl. If Beethoven were alive today, would he utilize all the means at his disposal? Wasn't Bach's organ just one big dinosaur of a synthesizer? Wasn't the cadenza or spontaneous variations on a theme, what we now think of as improvisation? Part of musical pioneering is to breath new life into the existing forms, to break new ground,...... is it not???<P>I'm interested to hear what you have to say about this............</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Leslie, (and all!)<P>A few points I thought whilst reading this thread:<P>Do you think it is relevant to ask questions like "What would Beethoven do if he was alive today"? I think it is. If Beethoven was alive today, he would not have lived at the beginning of the 19th century and therefore the state of music today would be very different!<P>If what you are saying is, "What if thee was a musician like Beethoven alive today?", it is still irrelivant in my view. The circumstances of today are completely different as there are many more forms of music widely disseminated. Your question raises more questions! Would he have written pop music? Modern Classical? (Even Romantic Classical?!) Jazz..... etc etc etc.<P>Since Beethoven, I think there have been figures who have displayed parts of Beethoven's personality. Obvious examples are: Brahms (in the formal sense), Liszt and Wagner (in the forward looking sense) etc etc. In the pop industry, there are still people who display characteristics of the great Beethoven! The Beatles touched on the emotional depth of his music for example.<P>If you think about it, part of the difference between Classicism and Baroquian thinking is that the former is MEANT to be more accessable to others! (Hence the lack of contrapuntal complexity in styles Haydn and Mozart as compared to Bach and Handel). This is about the only thing that still rings true about the music industry today - that the music is accessable to a wide range of people!<P>I admit that for music in general, in MY opinion, it is a shame that there is that lack of progression now, but is that actually BAD though? For us, yes! But for the world in general, no. Good music in their eyes must be easily accessable, which all of it is! I feel for this reason, it is very difficult to label styles as, GOOD and BAD!<P>I have plenty more to say on this subject, but I wouldn't want to out stay my welcome on my first post!<P>Tim.

[JasonK]

Scotty - <P>I think you are on to something there....perhaps Sherouse's comment could stand as the opening statement for the Fan Club Charter.<P>Kudos to you, my man<P>King of Cheap Ploys

[~Leslie]

Hey Tim, Duke Ellington said there was only two types of music, good music and bad music, accessibility not withstanding, it's how it connects and resonates with me, that's how I judge it.<P>No big schpiel <BR>about how Pink Floyd measures against Mancini's Pink Panther, most ppl in here already know they both have a place in my CD library. <P>That's not why I came to this forum. <P>When I find myself in the worst possible places in my life, during the darkest hours,<BR>there is one composer I can turn to for answers.<P>And the reason for that is simply this:<BR> this man composed music in highly philosophical, idealistic terms. I don't really care whether his music is accessible or not, it fills a void where very few can. <P>The question in my mind still remains:<BR>were he alive today, what kind of music would he write, and what kind of instrumentation would he use?~ <P>

[Tim]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ~Leslie:<BR><B>Hey Tim, Duke Ellington said there was only two types of music, good music and bad music, accessibility not withstanding, it's how it connects and resonates with me, that's how I judge it.<P>When I find myself in the worst possible places in my life, during the darkest hours,<BR>there is one composer I can turn to for answers.<P>And the reason for that is simply this:<BR>this man composed music in highly philosophical, idealistic terms. I don't really care whether his music is accessible or not, it fills a void where very few can. <P>The question in my mind still remains:<BR>were he alive today, what kind of music would he write, and what kind of instrumentation would he use?~ <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Leslie,<P>I agree totally. In my opinion, music like Beethoven's which has incredible emotional depth and meaning is by far superior to the hollower music which is being thrown at us by the music industry of today. My point is that just because music is deep, does that actually mean that it is good? If so, why? What is the specifications for something that is good?!<P>I think that the definition of good music should be:<P>Something that is pleasing to the listener.<P>And that is it. That is what music is meant to do, and if it achieves that, then it may be labelled as GOOD. The perception of good music will therefore differ from person to person.<P>I still think that the question of "What would Beethoven write etc etc if he was alive today?" is irrelivant. It is just impossible to answer. Music is a completely different thing these days to what it was in Beethoven's time. Since the end of the 19th Century, there has been a steady decline in the quality of music (with few exceptions). I would say that even contemporary classical music lacks the depth and greatness of the 19th century. In my opinion, the question should be:<P>Is it <B>possible</B> to write music of the depth of Beethoven today? Or is the golden age of music well and truly over?

[~Leslie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tim:<BR><B> Leslie,<P>My point is that just because music is deep, does that actually mean that it is good? If so, why? What are the specifications for something that is good?!<P>Tim, the personal criteria I use to assess good music is as follows:<BR>****************************<BR>Command of Instrumentation/Orchestration<P>Skill at application of dynamics, prosody,<P>virtuousity, sonics, and harmony<P>Development of thematic material<P>Quality and originality of themes employed<P>Connection to audience(inspiration/catharsis)<P>Musical innovation<P>Influence on other composers, artists, environment<BR>*********************<P>The perception of good music will therefore differ from person to person.<P>Absolutely, Tim, each person's standard are different. <P>I still think that the question of "What would Beethoven write etc etc if he was alive today?" is irrelevant.<P>In a sense, yes, because it is so hypothetical. But it is something you as a musician should think about, if you want to compose. <P><BR> It is just impossible to answer.<P>Sooner or later there will be someone gifted individual with the means and wherewithal to interpret the classical masters well, will be able to incorporate and fuse the music of the past with today's music, ala Gunther Schullers third stream genre, or say someone like Leonard Bernstein. <P> In my opinion, the question should be:<P>Is it [b]possible</B> to write music of the depth of Beethoven today? <P>Yes, I believe so, when the right person comes along. <P>Or is the golden age of music well and truly over?<P>No, the answer is an emphatic no. There is genuine outstanding innovative virtuousity out there. The reason you haven't heard it, is because the radio and the corporates of the music industry will not promote something that will not be consumed heavily by the masses. Although the internet will be a positive catalyst to some degree. <P>Like Shos said, we got a lot of work to do. ~<P><BR>

[shostakovich]

I just got through digesting the previous 2 letters. I loved them. Tim, It was like reading my own thoughts. Leslie, Your checklist is terrific. Can there be a new musical messiah? I'm so pessimistic, precisely for the reasons you state about mass marketing. I hope YOU are right that it will happen, and envious that you are aware of possible candidates.<BR>Shos.

[Peter]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tim:<BR><B> Leslie,<BR>I agree totally. In my opinion, music like Beethoven's which has incredible emotional depth and meaning is by far superior to the hollower music which is being thrown at us by the music industry of today. My point is that just because music is deep, does that actually mean that it is good? If so, why? What is the specifications for something that is good?!<BR>I think that the definition of good music should be:<BR>Something that is pleasing to the listener.<BR>And that is it. That is what music is meant to do, and if it achieves that, then it may be labelled as GOOD. The perception of good music will therefore differ from person to person.<BR>I still think that the question of "What would Beethoven write etc etc if he was alive today?" is irrelivant. It is just impossible to answer. Music is a completely different thing these days to what it was in Beethoven's time. Since the end of the 19th Century, there has been a steady decline in the quality of music (with few exceptions). I would say that even contemporary classical music lacks the depth and greatness of the 19th century. In my opinion, the question should be:<BR>Is it possible</B> to write music of the depth of Beethoven today? Or is the golden age of music well and truly over?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Welcome aboard, Tim,<P>I agree that the only criterion necessary for determining whether or not a piece of music is good, is that a listener finds it enjoyable, although a different set of rules may come into play if we are trying to determine what constitutes "music". Then, once we have established this definition, the interesting question becomes: what makes good music "great" music? This is a far more complicated issue. For me, "great" music needn`t be music which I like, but it does need to have some kind of longevity of popularity, allied with a feeling of "newness" each time we hear it, & above all, it must have the transcendental power to move us emotionally. Others may, of course, apply different criteria for separating the good from the great.<P>I know what you are saying about "what if Beethoven were alive today?" - it is an unsolvable conundrum; even a time machine wouldn`t really be of much use with this problem!!<P>You are right about contemporary classical music; in fact from what I`ve heard, especially compared to Beethoven, it has no depth WHATSOEVER. It is vacuous drivel, "composed" by arty types, subsidised by arty foundations, performed for arty, cliquey crowds, and offered as a first step towards an over-glorified career, with very comfortable remunerative rewards, adoration along the way from those who simply know no better, & (here in the UK), a probable knighthood. Part of the reason why I so admire Beethoven, Schubert, Mozart, Chopin, etc., is that they struggled all of their lives for their art, & how magnificent is the art which they created. These men were never "rich kids", they wrote to put food on the table, but just look at what they wrote!<P>I simply do not see another Beethoven coming along. He was a complete one-off in so many ways, not least in his achievement of expanding musical horizons so far that even now, we are still playing "catch up". As I see it, composers are still working within the framework which he defined; thus, his expansion has become eroded contraction, & there is no end in sight to the rot.