Roll Over Beethoven

[Michael]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peter:<P><BR>I know what you are saying about "what if Beethoven were alive today?" - it is an unsolvable conundrum; even a time machine wouldn`t really be of much use with this problem!!<P>[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If Beethoven were alive today, he would be more famous for his age than his music.<P>Michael<P><BR>

[Peter]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael:<BR><B> If Beethoven were alive today, he would be more famous for his age than his music.<BR>Michael<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ah, yes, but with a time machine anything is possible! I suppose, Michael, he`d now be in his "late, late, late, late, late, late period".

[~Leslie]

I guess noone is going to take me seriously anymore. Good thing I like you guys, or you might invoke the very flames of purgatory<BR>on your back sides. LOL! <P>I need time to think about my Gunther Schuller theory. You can mull over yr trekkie, H.G. Wells jokes if ye like.<P>It may well prove to be a source of fine<BR>cyber entertainment in the interim. <P>Love and Kisses from<BR>Mt. St. Helens~

[Tim]

Originally posted by ~Leslie:<BR><B><BR>Tim, the personal criteria I use to assess good music is as follows:<BR>****************************<BR>Command of Instrumentation/Orchestration<P>Skill at application of dynamics, prosody,<BR>virtuousity, sonics, and harmony<P>Development of thematic material<P>Quality and originality of themes employed<P>Connection to audience(inspiration/catharsis)<P>Musical innovation<P>Influence on other composers, artists, environment<BR>*********************<BR></B><P>My perception of 'good' music is very simialr to your it would seem!<P>As far as I can see though, the 'fashionable' forms of music today would not allow ALL of these things in one! (I know there are exceptions to this rule! Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells 1 and 2 contain a lot of these things, but is it possible to juxtapose Beethoven's skill at composition with that of Mike Oldfield's?!)<P>In the less fashionable forms too, I just can not see anyone coming close to the mastery of Beethoven! Don't get me wrong, I am into contemporary music and I like a lot of it (especially Charles Ives actually!) but I can not see anyone matching the all round brilliance of Beethoven within the confines of the form. (ie. accessiblity rates pretty low!)<P>I don't know if we should be optimistic. Maybe there is a musical Messiah on his way who will revolutionise music again! But I fear that our saviour has already been and gone.<P>[This message has been edited by Tim (edited 01-11-2001).]<P>[This message has been edited by Tim (edited 01-11-2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Tim (edited 01-11-2001).]

[Tim]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peter:<BR><B> Welcome aboard, Tim,<P>I agree that the only criterion necessary for determining whether or not a piece of music is good, is that a listener finds it enjoyable, although a different set of rules may come into play if we are trying to determine what constitutes "music". Then, once we have established this definition, the interesting question becomes: what makes good music "great" music? This is a far more complicated issue. For me, "great" music needn`t be music which I like, but it does need to have some kind of longevity of popularity, allied with a feeling of "newness" each time we hear it, & above all, it must have the transcendental power to move us emotionally. Others may, of course, apply different criteria for separating the good from the great.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm not sure! (Sorry!) I find that a lot of people just accept Beethoven as a great composer because of the evidence as much as anything else! The fact that he influenced so many composers that followed him is enough for many people. Some people who I know feel that Beethoven is definately the greatest composer of them all, but don't actually like his music! There's an interesting one for ya!

[shostakovich]

Oh, My! We have a heretic on board, someone who admits to not liking Beethoven. And a double whammy --- he likes Charles Ives. Do we make him dance the plank, mateys in the UK? <P>Actually, Tim, HMS BEETHOVEN.COM is a big ship. It's good to hear from a fan of Ives. I had been thinking once of a slide-tape presentation on 3 American Heroes: Hanson, Ives, and Copland. Unfortunately, the venue I'd hoped for didn't pan out. Hanson was a hero because he pursued a tasteful mix of post-romantic, neo-classic music as educator, composer, and conductor at a time when conservatism was in the abyss. I treasure the series of Mercury recordings he presented. Ives was a hero for being modern at a time when conservatism was at a peak. He fought the same kind of battle as did Hanson, in a different war. Copland is America's hero for bringing its music to the attention of listeners and critics alike at a time when "good" music meant European.<P>I admire Ives' stubborn and lonely pursuit of a personal muse. Luckily for him, he had a day job and a wife who never said "Charlie, why don't you write what people like?" I attended a joint conference at Brooklyn College and Yale University on his 100th anniversary. Copland was there. Lou Harrison and (I think) John Kirkpatrick voiced anger at the young speakers, who were hitching their wagons to a rising Ives star. They were very upset that there were damned few people around to praise Ives' music when he needed it. They and a mere handful of others believed in him.<P>So now, Tim, I'd like to ask about your favorite Ives pieces,and how you came to discover him. I have a very hard time liking his stuff. The conservative 1st symphony with the pretty song, Judges Walk is all I can like in a normal sense. I find interest in 3 Places in New England, the Robert Browning Ov, his 2nd (I think ) orchestral set, and some of the Holidays Symphony.<BR>Shos

[~Leslie]

Hey Shos, : )<P>He may be an Ives avante garde fan,<BR> but<BR>he's the real deal. : ) <P>Makin him walk the plank is like killin the goose who lays the golden eggs. <P>I call him the Emperor man, cos he has Emperor chops. <P>Hey Tim are ye blushing yet? Don't let it go to yr head ol man, we expect alot around here. <P>Love and kisses,<BR>from the land of active and inactive<BR>volcanoes<p>[This message has been edited by ~Leslie (edited 01-11-2001).]

[Michael]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tim:<P>As far as I can see though, the 'fashionable' forms of music today would not allow ALL of these things in one! (I know there are exceptions to this rule! Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells 1 and 2 contain a lot of these things, but is it possible to juxtapose Beethoven's skill at composition with that of Mike Oldfield's?!)<P>B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I was wondering how I would get around to mentioning Mike Oldfield but you have done it for me, Tim. I bought the original "Tubular Bells" the year it came out, but since "T Bells 2" came out a few years ago, I have bought every album in the catalogue. I would sooner listen to Oldfield than almost any "classical" music of this century.<BR>I do not listen to him with the same ears as I listen to Beethoven (and I don't have a false Spock pair) but for sheer non-symphonic melody and inventiveness, only McCartney and the Beatles can equal him. There - my sordid little secret is out!<P>Michael<P>

[Tim]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by shostakovich:<BR><B>Oh, My! We have a heretic on board, someone who admits to not liking Beethoven. And a double whammy --- he likes Charles Ives. Do we make him dance the plank, mateys in the UK? <P>Actually, Tim, HMS BEETHOVEN.COM is a big ship. It's good to hear from a fan of Ives. I had been thinking once of a slide-tape presentation on 3 American Heroes: Hanson, Ives, and Copland. Unfortunately, the venue I'd hoped for didn't pan out. Hanson was a hero because he pursued a tasteful mix of post-romantic, neo-classic music as educator, composer, and conductor at a time when conservatism was in the abyss. I treasure the series of Mercury recordings he presented. Ives was a hero for being modern at a time when conservatism was at a peak. He fought the same kind of battle as did Hanson, in a different war. Copland is America's hero for bringing its music to the attention of listeners and critics alike at a time when "good" music meant European.<P>I admire Ives' stubborn and lonely pursuit of a personal muse. Luckily for him, he had a day job and a wife who never said "Charlie, why don't you write what people like?" I attended a joint conference at Brooklyn College and Yale University on his 100th anniversary. Copland was there. Lou Harrison and (I think) John Kirkpatrick voiced anger at the young speakers, who were hitching their wagons to a rising Ives star. They were very upset that there were damned few people around to praise Ives' music when he needed it. They and a mere handful of others believed in him.<P>So now, Tim, I'd like to ask about your favorite Ives pieces,and how you came to discover him. I have a very hard time liking his stuff. The conservative 1st symphony with the pretty song, Judges Walk is all I can like in a normal sense. I find interest in 3 Places in New England, the Robert Browning Ov, his 2nd (I think ) orchestral set, and some of the Holidays Symphony.<BR>Shos</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hey Shos!<P>OK. Let's just get one thing straight before I go on:<P>I believe that Beethoven is the greatest musician who ever graced the planet, and I love all of his music!<P>There you go! I'm not quite sure where you got the idea about me admitting to "not liking Beethoven"! <P>Now, to answer your question!<P>To tell you the truth, I do not know a lot of Ives' music intimately. I started learning one piece called the 'Three-Page Sonata' which was really great (I actually did a big project on it for my A-levels) but I know little else unfortunately.<P>Ives' music is a stange thing! The range of styles which it covers is huge. The songs are just like popular songs, but the symphonies are highly atonal and experimental works. Some pieces which I am quite familliar with are the piano sonatas which are both colossal and experimental. My old piano teacher -who is an American contemporary music specialist- used to play them to me. He also made recordings of both pieces under the label Virgin Classics, so I got to know them from that.<P>What do you think of the America variations? I think that they are pretty awful actually! That is one of the few pieces which I dislike.<P>By the way, did everyone in here know that Beethoven was Ives' idol, and that his music is highly influenced by that of B's?<P> <P>Tim.

[Peter]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tim:<BR><B> I'm not sure! (Sorry!) I find that a lot of people just accept Beethoven as a great composer because of the evidence as much as anything else! The fact that he influenced so many composers that followed him is enough for many people. Some people who I know feel that Beethoven is definately the greatest composer of them all, but don't actually like his music! There's an interesting one for ya!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Tim, I don`t really see much disagreement between us. You`re right, legacy is all. I, too, know people who accept Beethoven as the greatest, but cannot take to his music; the best explanation for this discrepancy I can elicit from these unfortunates(!) is that Beethoven is fame personified, & his position as the most famous musician in history is unassailable.

[Tim]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael:<BR><B> I was wondering how I would get around to mentioning Mike Oldfield but you have done it for me, Tim. I bought the original "Tubular Bells" the year it came out, but since "T Bells 2" came out a few years ago, I have bought every album in the catalogue. I would sooner listen to Oldfield than almost any "classical" music of this century.<BR>I do not listen to him with the same ears as I listen to Beethoven (and I don't have a false Spock pair) but for sheer non-symphonic melody and inventiveness, only McCartney and the Beatles can equal him. There - my sordid little secret is out!<P>Michael<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Mike Oldfield is a very interesting case actually. When writing TBI, he set out to compose "something with the complexity of a symphony". This is too ambitious. There are plenty of symphonic techniques in the writing, (ie. complex thematic development, plenty of harmonic variety, even cyclic form! etc etc...) but it is dragged down to a level below classical music by the popular infuence. In his effort to make this work accessible to a contemporary audience used to popular music, the piece lost some of its complexity. Take track 12 from TBII, (there is a similar part in TBI). The needless yelling spoils the whole of the second section for me. This part is surrounded by parts of real beauty, and sticks out as unnecesarry.<P>Having said that though, Oldfield shows his great natural sense of musicality in many other spine tinglingly magical parts. The tension in Sentinal (TBII) and the equivilent section of TBI is masterful. He uses a minimilistic motif in both cases which has plenty of potential for developtment.<P>The first section of TBI (with the rif) shows great compositional skill in the use of time signature. The standard rif consists of two sections, identical except for the extra beat added on the end. We therefore have a time signature of 15/8, divided into sections of 7 and 8, providing a sense of dissorientation at first. This is repeated many times and the listener begins to get used to the unusualness of the theme. Other insturments join in and the piano after about two or three minutes. Here, Oldfield shows his wit by writing the chords to the piano part in the same signature of 15/8, but the division is the other way round! (ie 8 then 7!) This gives the rif a real twist making it sound very different indeed.<P>Can these kind of clever and highly sophisticated techiniques be compared to the complexity of a Beethoven symphony? Does it contain anywhere NEAR as much depth? I would say no. What do you guys who know TB think?<P><BR>Tim.

[Tim]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peter:<BR><B> Tim, I don`t really see much disagreement between us. You`re right, legacy is all. I, too, know people who accept Beethoven as the greatest, but cannot take to his music; the best explanation for this discrepancy I can elicit from these unfortunates(!) is that Beethoven is fame personified, & his position as the most famous musician in history is unassailable. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OK! You said before that whether music is great is a more complex issue. I would say it is a more simple one.<P> <p>[This message has been edited by Tim (edited 01-12-2001).]

[Peter]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael:<BR><B> I was wondering how I would get around to mentioning Mike Oldfield but you have done it for me, Tim. I bought the original "Tubular Bells" the year it came out, but since "T Bells 2" came out a few years ago, I have bought every album in the catalogue. I would sooner listen to Oldfield than almost any "classical" music of this century.<BR>I do not listen to him with the same ears as I listen to Beethoven (and I don't have a false Spock pair) but for sheer non-symphonic melody and inventiveness, only McCartney and the Beatles can equal him. There - my sordid little secret is out!<BR>Michael<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Mike Oldfield?! (zzzzzzzzzz.........). Well, Michael, the things we learn about our virtual friends! My flabber has been well & truly ghasted

[Peter]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tim:<BR><B> OK! You said before that whether music is great is a more complex issue. I would say it is a more simple one.<BR> <BR>[This message has been edited by Tim (edited 01-12-2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Er.......then we do disagree!<P>Edited bit: Tim, if you`re saying that what makes for great music is a more simple issue than the one pertaining to "merely" good music, then I must say that you have me completely flummoxed!<p>[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 01-12-2001).]

[Tim]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peter:<BR><B> Er.......then we do disagree!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hmm..............<P><BR>Yep. No biggie!<P>Just to add more salt to both of our evidently DEEEEEP wounds, we both seem to differ in opinion over the musical value of Mike Oldfield! <P>No biggie!<P>Lovingly,<P>Tim....<P>[This message has been edited by Tim (edited 01-12-2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Tim (edited 01-12-2001).]

[Peter]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tim:<BR><B> Hmm..............<BR>Yep. No biggie!<BR>Just to add more salt to both of our evidently DEEEEEP wounds, we both seem to differ in opinion over the musical value of Mike Oldfield! <BR>No biggie!<BR>Lovingly,<BR>Tim....<BR>[This message has been edited by Tim (edited 01-12-2001).]<BR>[This message has been edited by Tim (edited 01-12-2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Tim,<P>Your reputation preceded you to this forum, but I can see that we`re going to get along just fine!

[Michael]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peter:<BR><B> Mike Oldfield?! (zzzzzzzzzz.........). Well, Michael, the things we learn about our virtual friends! My flabber has been well & truly ghasted </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Peter, one of the advantages of being 54 is that one doesn't give a tinker's curse about what one should or should not listen to. I am also a confirmed Abba fan. Beat that.....<P>Michael<P>

[Peter]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael:<BR><B> Peter, one of the advantages of being 54 is that one doesn't give a tinker's curse about what one should or should not listen to. I am also a confirmed Abba fan. Beat that.....<BR>Michael<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Michael, I agree 100%, although I don`t see the special significance of being 54! I can surprise you by revealing that I, too, am a huge Abba fan. Their songs are only surpassed in melodic quality by The Beatles (plus, of course, they had Agnetha....swoon....).<P>So, of course you should listen to whoever you like. Anyone at all. Absolutely anyone. Except Westlife

[shostakovich]

My apologies, Tim. When you said you know some people who think B is the greatest, but don't like his music, my brain short circuited. I was in shock, and imagined you were among them. Sorry.<P>Just a couple more Ives remarks. He was born less than 100 miles away from here, so he is a bit special in the area. At the conference we learned he was a good shortstop at Yale, and thought 2nd base was a job for sissies. We also learned that The Unanswered Question (which I enjoy, and can recommend) was well received in France before it was in the States. Bernstein, in a series of Norton Lectures at Harvard, about a quarter century ago, featured that work. I think he was saying the question not answered was "Wither goeth tonality?" The work makes more sense with that. Ives used multiple tonalities, but I think he didn't dispense with it. That was left for Schoenberg, who was among Ives's admirers. I didn't realize Ives idolized Beethoven. Thanks for that tidbit. As for Variations on America, I think he was being funny. I think a lot of his music is intended to pull our legs. Shos

[~Leslie]

I can surprise you by revealing that I, too, am a huge Abba fan. <P>Oh no, not you too Peter!!!!<P><BR>(plus, of course, they had Agnetha....swoon....).<P>Always a sucker for a pretty face..........<P>So, of course you should listen to whoever you like. Anyone at all. Absolutely anyone. Except Westlife <P>I'm sure I'm not missing anything, but WHO is Westlife?~ <P><BR> <P>