Mahler recordings

[EJA]

I find myself kind of wishing that I liked Mahler. It's the same feeling I get when I hear people wax eloquent about wine. Then I taste it, and its just spoiled grape juice after all. It's the same with coffee -- people rave about it, guzzle it, and it even smells good, but when I taste it, it's just hot, burnt, bitter water.

[BenMurphy6]

wow, this thread is back from the dead.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> it doesn't require Bernstein-esque emotional hijacking. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>i think you could say that for pretty much all of the symphonies. actually lenny's recording of the 1st is good.<P>i don't have szell's recording of the 6th; although i'm thinking of picking it up along with the sanderling account just for completeness. karajan's is still my preferred recording, after hearing quite a few others. <P>has anyone heard the zander 6th? it got raves from the press, but i don't like it much at all. agonizing tempi and a very "rugged" interpretation. although the extra commentary cd is cool.<P>luis, how come you don't poke your head in here more often?<P>ethan, maybe you just haven't heard the right recordings . or for that matter, tasted the right wines. coffee is bad.

[Molman]

I really don't get the fuss over Zander. Yes, his commentaries are interesting. If only his performances were half as interesting.

[Luis]

<B>About M6</B><P>True, Szell puts a well balanced tempo in the opening. But so do many others! From the recordings I have, Sanderling, Tennstedt, Dohnanyi, Herbig, Karajan and Mehta use exactly the same tempo; Boulez, Rattle and Zander, on the other hand, are just a bit slower but still they are far from being Barbirolli or Chailly. I also do not like his 'alma theme' either (way too rushed in the begining, to then slowing it a bit then). Finally, the slower parts in the movement lack in my opinion of any mystery and suffer from the terrible sound of this recording (Cowbells and other details barely audible). <BR>The scherzo is indeed very well done. It Has a good tempo, and yes, it succesfully captures the intended parody and denial of the 1st movement. It could have a bit of more energy in some parts, but overall, it's very good. <BR>The andante is the fastest I've ever heard (only 13, 5 minutes!) and it leaves me virtually nothing. It's the worst movement in the symphony imo.<P>Last but not least, Szell's 6th sounds TERRIBLY. That's not a point to be missed in Mahler in general and in this symphony in particular. There's so much to miss in this symphony without excellent sound! An extremely profuse orchestration with such richness of textures and SO MANY tiny details. But most of all, a bad sound can make ME miss the whole point of this symphony. <P>As I see it, this symphony must really HURT you. If I don’t experience fear, fake and almost histerical optimism, anxiety, etc. etc. then I’m listening to the wrong 6th. Of course that the 'performance' is the main concern here, but I doubt I would love even the 'best' m6 performance if it had a terrible sound. Szell's m6 finale is almost flawless in playing. So energetic and coherent in it's narrative. (I could only wish for a bit more of contrast between the fastest and slower parts and bit of more 'momentum sense' in the building of the climaxes). But no matter how well played it is, the sound doesn't help overwhelm me, quite the contrary. The brasses and woodwinds sound weak or ‘ill textured’, the low strings don't resound, the pizzicatos are barely audible, and all the percussion that it's lost! (with the exception of the cymbal crashes that are in fact too loud). <P>I disagree with the people that says that this is 'basically' (?) a 'classical' symphony just because it follows classical schema (4 movements with a sonata allegro form 1st movement -with an exposition repeat-, a scherzo, a slow movement, and an allegro again in the finale). Formally, it IS classical, but God! just listen it! This is even more theatrical than Mahler's 2nd or 8th. Of course that this is MY view of this symphony -what I look to experience when I listen it- and some will disagree. I look for extreme, 'exagerated' and contrasting emotions. That's why I so much like Tennstedt's 6th (as well as Barbirolli's -perhaps the best sounding of all and it's from 1967!- and Bernstein's). I have a lot to criticize about all these 4 m6s too, but I take much more from them than from any other m6. <P><B>About Mahler's 9th...</B><P>I wonder if 'tame' is what my English translator says it is (Docile, submissive, domesticated, etc.) If it is, well, I strongly disagree. <P>As I've said, I'm yet to find a perfect 9th. And I must say that Abbado's 9th is not really special in the outer movements. But you have a lot of other excellent m9s in this department. Boulez, Zander, and many others (including Klemperer) do a good job with the 1st movement; Barbirolli is my preferred for the last one but I also like Ozawa, Klemperer again, Haitink, Bernstein (RCO -yes, RCO!-). But of all the m9s I own (14) and of all I've listened, very few conductors, as Thornhill said, <I>really risk getting their hands truly dirty in the 9th's inner movements </I>. The thing is that I believe that Abbado DOES goes dirty. So dirty that I can’t help but picture him now while listening his m9 in the most grotesque situation: playing in the mud like a kid but dressed as a conductor and having so much fun! And yes! Klemperer is at one side staring at him with disgust (I know, I should stop watching Ken Russell’s movies ) <P>Anyway…<P>These are a few adjectives that Mahler asks for in the inner movements: ‘clumsy’, ‘heavy-footed’, ‘coarse’, ‘burleske’, ‘very defiantly’, etc. Well, definitely none of these are present in the Klemperer M9. In fact I find it the dullest of all M9s I have for the inner movements. And I’m not talking just about the extremely expansive tempos. Bernstein's RCO m9 2nd movement for example is also very slow, but it really 'dances' ridiculously and so it captures the intended parody sense; Klemperer, on the other side, is so boring to me! <P>By the way, I didn't say Klemperer’s m9 was bad (nor Szell's m6), I've said I consider them overrated. If a symphony has a one or two movements that I consider terrible or has some aspect that for me flaw the performance completely (like a very poor sound), then, I can't rate them in the top of my list, that’s all.<P>Cheers!<p>[ 04-24-2003: Message edited by: Luis ]

[Luis]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Molman:<BR><STRONG>I really don't get the fuss over Zander. Yes, his commentaries are interesting. If only his performances were half as interesting.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have Zander's 4th, 5th, 6th and 9th (does he have others with the PO?) And yes, I agree<P>His m9 is his best imo and his m5 is not bad either. But his <A HREF="http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=5300" TARGET=_blank>6th</A> and especially his <A HREF="http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=3676" TARGET=_blank>4th</A> are quite mediocre. <P><B>Hi Ben! </B><BR>If you want a 'standard' M6, the best 2 I know are from Sanderling (1st choice) and Boulez (Mehta and Herbig are also good). If you'd like to go a bit further, go for Tennstedt (I know only his 1983 recording and it's the most intense 6th i know), Bernstein (DG) or Barbirolli

[thornhill]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> True, Szell puts a well balanced tempo in the opening. But so do many others! From the recordings I have, Sanderling, Tennstedt, Dohnanyi, Herbig, Karajan and Mehta use exactly the same tempo; Boulez, Rattle and Zander, on the other hand, are just a bit slower but still they are far from being Barbirolli or Chailly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm not saying his first movement tempo is unique, but it's one of many major elements that he pulls off just right. For instance, I like both Dohnanyi's and Boulez's pacing in the movement, but both their recordings have terribly weak hammer blows and their 4th movements in general are devoid of drama.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The andante is the fastest I've ever heard (only 13, 5 minutes!) and it leaves me virtually nothing. It's the worst movement in the symphony imo. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>His swift andante needs to be looked at in the context of his overall vision of the work - one long march.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Last but not least, Szell's 6th sounds TERRIBLY. That's not a point to be missed in Mahler in general and in this symphony in particular. There's so much to miss in this symphony without excellent sound! An extremely profuse orchestration with such richness of textures and SO MANY tiny details. But most of all, a bad sound can make ME miss the whole point of this symphony. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not to sound rude, but a good receiver and CD player also handle many of the recording's sound problems. <P>Also, I think that interpretation is far more important than sound quality. There are plenty of bright, vivid bombastic digital recordings where the conductor is hardly able justify why he's making a recording. You also haven't entered the subculture of Mahler fans who trade bootleg radio recordings on reel to reel, or the legions of Horenstein fans (almost all his Mahler recordings are dubious taped live performances, many in mono) - that's bad sound quality. The sound of Szell's 6th (pretty much) faithfully represents his interpretation. It should in no way be marked as a negative.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> There's so much to miss in this symphony without excellent sound! An extremely profuse orchestration with such richness of textures and SO MANY tiny details. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Lastly on this subject, many vivid digital recordings are so over engineered with close miking and sound mixing that they do not represent what a Mahler symphony sounds like in a concert hall. In moments of both Abbado's new 7th, and Boulez's 6th, you can hear the engineers drop the levels on certain sections. So don't be so quick to proclaim that modern recordings are more faithful to Mahler's sounds. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> As I see it, this symphony must really HURT you. If I don’t experience fear, fake and almost histerical optimism, anxiety, etc. etc. then I’m listening to the wrong 6th. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>huh?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I disagree with the people that says that this is 'basically' (?) a 'classical' symphony just because it follows classical schema (4 movements with a sonata allegro form 1st movement -with an exposition repeat-, a scherzo, a slow movement, and an allegro again in the finale). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't think Szell sees it as a 'classical' symphony. He smartly does way with the first mvt repeat to reinforce his vision of the symphony's constant ongoing development, with the movement breaks merely being rests for the musicians.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Boulez, Zander, and many others (including Klemperer) do a good job with the 1st movement; Barbirolli is my preferred for the last one <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Both Boulez'snd Zander's 9ths are top heavy. Barbirolli's is very good, but his tempi in the Landler is too fast.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> The thing is that I believe that Abbado DOES goes dirty. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I don't. True "dirt" is Szell's Landler. First time I heard it I wanted to shut it off half way through since it was so ugly.<p>[ 04-24-2003: Message edited by: thornhill ]

[BenMurphy6]

i've gotta say: when i see posts that long, i usually don't read them. :p

[Marye]

During the Top Ten Symphony exercise Hal9000 directed us to <thanks hal> my top symphony was Mahler's 2nd Symphony, Resurrection". I am a great fan of Mahler, but I particularly love this symphony. I recently purchased the Claudio Abbado, Mahler Debussy Lucerne Festival Orchestra LIVE recording, 2004 on Deutsche Grammophon. I think it is glorious but I am merely an appreciator of music and not a scholar as many on this board indeed are. Thoughts? BenMurphy... you out there?

[lioness]

oh Marye, you touch on a subject i wish i had time to post on. i love his work. i adore his 9th. his unfinished (10th)is so lavishly emotional it can bring me to tears.

Berlin philharmonic does a wonderful 9th.

i also own the version from the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (Bruno Walter cond). i peronally love it. some do not. if you have never heard his 9th before, this may not be a version to start with. however, if you want to add to already existing collection of historics/interpretations, run out now and purchase this gem.

as for his 2nd, may i recommend a cd Bernstein - Mahler: Symphonies no 2 & 8 (5th is also in there as well). there are many emotional grounds where i find Bernstein's interps very effective. not just in this cd but others as well.

ok, when Bernstein recorded with Sony & the LSO i thought is sucked. the only one so far though.

i could go on and on but i'm slammed at work. good luck. there are many great compilations out there.

[Marye]

Thank you Lioness... I have many recordings of Mahler... Bernstein's recordings are indeed legendary ... even so, I still look for new ones.

[lioness]

i wish i would have been around for this thread before. there's this special disc collection that came out a few years ago.
it's all Benjamin Zander/Philharmonia Orchestral recordings of Mahler's works. i don't have them all (yet).

[Silver Gryphon]

I only have two: (although I'd like more)

#1: Bernstein/Concertgebouworkest Amsterdam (Deutsche Grammophon)
#5: Maazel/Vienna Philharmonic (Sony Classical)

[lioness]

thanks for posting Silver Gryphon.
that's one more i need to have!

[Trumpetmaster]

Ahh...

Mahler 1st Symphony is playing right now.
I'm in heaven!!!!!!!1

[BenMurphy6]

Obviously chiming in on this a little late, but Marye:

I also bought a copy of the Abbado/Lucerne M2 and am very fond of it. My only complaint is I think the climax of the 1st movement is a bit underplayed (where's the tam tam?). But, I think M2 is mostly about the finale and they certainly nailed it in this recording. Plenty of detail in the quieter parts, good offstage brass, etc. Nice audible bells in the last bars. The scherzo on this recording is also excellent. All in all I'd say it could use a little more low-end "bite," but that's a minor complaint.

There've been a few mentions of Mahler "sets" so I thought I'd offer my own opinion. While Lenny's DG and Sony cycles are both famous for good reason, and Zander's cycle strikes high points with his recordings of M5 and M9, one set that gets very little attention is Eliahu Inbal's, with the Frankfurt Radio Symphony Orchestra. It is the most consistently good cycle I own, with every symphony receiving at least a "good" performance, some "excellent" (3, 7 & 9), and a couple in my top tier of three or four favorites for a given symphony (5 and 6). On top of all that, it can be found as a 15 (I think) cd set, most commonly on eBay, for as little as $30. Good sound, great playing. Everyone should have it.

[Marye]

Oh brilliant Ben...I shall look for that one. Whose recording, then of #2 do you think is the best? The one you keep consistently returning to when you need to hear Mahler's 2nd? How about the 5th? Have you a preference for that one.

Thanks for responding Ben.

[BenMurphy6]

Hi Marye,

For M2 (a symphony that I love but listen to fairly rarely), I have three recordings that I like about equally:

Mehta / Vienna (on Decca I think?)
Slatkin / St. Louis (Telarc)
Abbado / Lucerne (DG)

Those three are straightfoward readings of very high quality. Of the three, maybe the Slatkin is still my favorite, even though it's 1st movement could be more exciting.

Another one I like is Ozawa's with the Saito Kinen. It's a lot more of an idiomatic performance but the playing is just awesome.

As for M5, there are four that I keep coming back to:

Tennstedt / London (EMI)(this one also is coupled with a decent Das Lied von der Erde)
Barbirolli / New Philharmonia (EMI I think)
Inbal / Frankfurt Radio (Brilliant Classics)
Barshai / Junge Deutsche Philharmonie (Laurel)

The Barshai is an awesome peformance. The amazing thing about it is that it's a live performance of a youth orchestra, and I think it's as good or better than any other recording. The Inbal recordings are also available individually on Denon, rather than Brilliant. Supposedly the sound is better on those, but it's still excellent on the Brilliant transfers.

[BenMurphy6]

Forgot to add that having said all that about the Barshai, I listen to the Inbal most often of the four.

[Serenity]

I've been on a Mahler kick all week. Driving to and from work I've listened to his 1st (Bruno Walter), 2nd (Bruno Walter), 4th (James Levine)and 9th (George Solti) symphonies. I want the rest!

[bignaf]

I listened to Karajan's Mahler 5th this weekend. it is now my favorite 5th recording.
where are all these guys? Ethan, be, and thorny? I guess there's not enough musical discussion now...