Rafe or Ralph?

[Jeff Dutton]

Hearing Sir Stewart play the Vaughan Williams piece "Overture: The Wasps" reminded me of an ongoing discussion between my wife an myself: <BR>I see and hear of Rafe Vaughan Willams and of Ralph Vaughan Williams. My wife insists that "Ralph" is correct. Are they one and the same? If they are the same, why are both names seemingly equally popular? <p>[This message has been edited by Jeff Dutton (edited 01-11-2001).]

[sherouse]

In a sincere effort to save this marriage, (he!he!) the spelling is Ralph but the pronunciation is 'Rafe'. In a way, you both are correct! <P>- Sherouse <BR>Founder & President, Nicole Marie Fan Club<BR>Van, Beethoven USA<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Dutton:<BR><B>Hearing Sir Stewart play the Vaughan Williams piece "Overture: The Wasps" reminded me of an ongoing discussion between my wife an myself: <BR>I see and hear of Rafe Vaughan Willams and of Ralph Vaughan Williams. My wife insists that "Ralph" is correct. Are they one and the same? If they are the same, why are both names seemingly equally popular? <P>[This message has been edited by Jeff Dutton (edited 01-11-2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

[Sparky]

Only the Brits could come up with that kind of pronunciation! Reminds me of a trip I once took in England; I was driving, and had to get to a village called Beaulieu. When I couldn't find it, I stopped and asked how to get to "Boh-lyoo"; the person looked quizzical, and said she had never heard of it. When I pointed it out to her on the map, she exclaimed, "Oh, you want "Byoo-lee". I'm not sure that's what I really wanted, but I took her word for it. So much for the Norman conquest!

[Peter]

Well, sir, I might well ask you how you get ArkanSAW from ArkanSAS! At least we were smart enough to invent our own language! <P>PS. Beaulieu is just up the road from me. Why were you going there - was it for its marvellous motor museum?

[JimH]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sparky:<BR><B>Only the Brits could come up with that kind of pronunciation! Reminds me of a trip I once took in England; I was driving, and had to get to a village called Beaulieu. When I couldn't find it, I stopped and asked how to get to "Boh-lyoo"; the person looked quizzical, and said she had never heard of it. When I pointed it out to her on the map, she exclaimed, "Oh, you want "Byoo-lee". I'm not sure that's what I really wanted, but I took her word for it. So much for the Norman conquest!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

[JimH]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sparky:<BR><B>Only the Brits could come up with that kind of pronunciation! ...<BR>...<BR>So much for the Norman conquest!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>As a former Brit I am in a position to shed some light on this: it has to do with the so-called 'British sense of Humo(u)r' for which I will shortly provide a set of rules.<P>The Norman Conquest is more relevant than you may realize: the only way the conquered Brits could retaliate against the all-powerful Normans was to deliberately mis-pronounce Norman-French words and bastardize them into English (hence 'Bew-Lee' etc) while exercising their sense of humor according to the following rules:<P>Joke-Telling Rule No.1<BR>pretend you don't see the point of the joke you are telling;<P>Joke-Telling Rule No.2<BR>keep a straight face; <P>Joke-Telling Rule No.3<BR>pull the leg of your fellow conversationalist<BR>to the greatest extent possible;<P>Joke-Telling Rule No.4<BR>Do not admit to Rules 1 through 4

[treebeau]

So, then, "Rafe" is a possible joke pronunciation of the "Ralf" that most of us on this side are accustomed to ?<P>I like to think of "Rafe" as a trendy thing. Perhaps one day the world will get past this trend so that "Rafe" Vaughan Williams and "Rafe" Fiennes (Fines, not Fee-en-es) can go back to being plain old Ralphs. I know, the former has been dead for over 40 years.<P>Regards,<BR>Tim B.<BR>

[Peter]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JimH:<BR><B> As a former Brit I am in a position to shed some light on this: it has to do with the so-called 'British sense of Humo(u)r' for which I will shortly provide a set of rules.<BR>The Norman Conquest is more relevant than you may realize: the only way the conquered Brits could retaliate against the all-powerful Normans was to deliberately mis-pronounce Norman-French words and bastardize them into English (hence 'Bew-Lee' etc) while exercising their sense of humor according to the following rules:<BR>Joke-Telling Rule No.1<BR>pretend you don't see the point of the joke you are telling;<BR>Joke-Telling Rule No.2<BR>keep a straight face; <BR>Joke-Telling Rule No.3<BR>pull the leg of your fellow conversationalist<BR>to the greatest extent possible;<BR>Joke-Telling Rule No.4<BR>Do not admit to Rules 1 through 4</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sir, you insult both me & my 60 million compatriots with your mocking tones. You describe yourself as a "former Brit"; well, I am not surprised that we gave you away! There is no such thing as the "so-called British sense of humour." There is, however, the British sense of humour, & luckily, for your feelings, I possess it in large quantities.<P>Had your posting been, in any way, disarming, self-deprecating, ironic or even FUNNY, then I should surely have laughed along with you. Maybe I read you wrong, but I just feel that your p*ss-take on the land of your birth was a cheap shot, utterly undeserving of the usual stylized, witty, engaging banter so prevalent on this great forum.<P>82 posts in, & I finally got to be annoyed

[Luis]

T here are only a few B British people I “know” So maybe <BR>I ’m wrong, but it seems to <BR>M e that, despite of your wit sense of humor you are also too innocent...<P><p>[This message has been edited by Luis (edited 01-12-2001).]

[Peter]

I wanted to say that I meant nothing inflamatory by my previous posting. I just feel that Jim`s mockery needed checking; after all, there are only 3 or 4 of us Brits on this forum, against hundreds of you marauding Yanks! I mean, sometimes a stand has to be made, or else we few will be trampled to death, for sure!<P>LUIS:<P>I was just starting to calm down, when......."innocent" is suggested. Innocent? Please elaborate, for I fear that you are thinking pure twaddle

[Luis]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peter:<BR><B>I wanted to say that I meant nothing inflamatory by my previous posting. I just feel that Jim`s mockery needed checking; after all, there are only 3 or 4 of us Brits on this forum, against hundreds of you marauding Yanks! I mean, sometimes a stand has to be made, or else we few will be trampled to death, for sure!<BR>LUIS:<BR>I was just starting to calm down, when......."innocent" is suggested. Innocent? Please elaborate, for I fear that you are thinking pure twaddle </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I won’t reformulate the content of my message for it’s its FORM what is important. Believe me, I hope to be thinking pure twaddle… But some recent mock incidents on internet forums made me a bit paranoiac... <BR>

[treebeau]

Hey ! Last night on TV there was yet another showing of that American classic film "The Karate Kid" starring none other than......<BR>Rafe Macchio. <P>On another channel there was Jackie Gleason in The Honeymooners playing.....<BR>Rafe Kramden. <P>(What's the emoticon for one having a tongue in cheek ?)<P>Regards,<BR>Tim B.<BR>

[JimH]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peter:<BR><B> Sir, you insult both me & my 60 million compatriots with your mocking tones. You describe yourself as a "former Brit"; well, I am not surprised that we gave you away! There is no such thing as the "so-called British sense of humour." There is, however, the British sense of humour, & luckily, for your feelings, I possess it in large quantities.<P>Had your posting been, in any way, disarming, self-deprecating, ironic or even FUNNY, then I should surely have laughed along with you. Maybe I read you wrong, but I just feel that your p*ss-take on the land of your birth was a cheap shot, utterly undeserving of the usual stylized, witty, engaging banter so prevalent on this great forum.<P>82 posts in, & I finally got to be annoyed </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It would seem that my tongue-in-cheek iteration of Rules-1-through-4 has found yet another unwitting victim ..... ;D

[dreamwarrior]

I had to laugh when I saw this thread. I was just home visiting my family in southern Illinois when I heard an intersing thing on Classic 99 (unable to get Beethoven.com, as my mother has no computer).<P>A guest (British) was talking about "Rafe" Vaughn Williams when the host butted in and said "Don't you mean Ralph?". The British gent paused a moment and asked "If you're speeaking American then yes it is Ralph...however I'm an Englishman speaking English....that's where it gets it's name you know...we invented it....you're country was formed in 1776....we were speaking English long before then......you're continent was discovered in 1492...we were speaking English long before then....now as I was saying Rafe Vaugn Williams.......<P>I thought that was too funny!!! And now to find this thread here!!<P>Jeffrey<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sparky:<BR><B>Only the Brits could come up with that kind of pronunciation! Reminds me of a trip I once took in England; I was driving, and had to get to a village called Beaulieu. When I couldn't find it, I stopped and asked how to get to "Boh-lyoo"; the person looked quizzical, and said she had never heard of it. When I pointed it out to her on the map, she exclaimed, "Oh, you want "Byoo-lee". I'm not sure that's what I really wanted, but I took her word for it. So much for the Norman conquest!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

[shostakovich]

Hi Dreamwarrior. Nice, amusing story. My own first encounter with "Rafe" Vaugan-Williams (whom I had called "Ralph" till then) came at the time of the first recording of his 9th symphony, just over 40 years ago. At the beginning of the recording the voice of conductor Adrian Boult came on to explain that "Rafe" Vaughan-Williams had intended to be present at the recording session, but had passed away during the night. That ancient Everest record is very special to me. <BR>Shos