Others.

Everyone loves a healthy debate. Post an idea or comment about a current event or issue. Let others post their ideas also. This area is for those who love to explore other points of view.

Moderator: Nicole Marie

Re: Others.

Postby shostakovich » Sun Jul 20, 2003 2:56 pm

It must be a case of distance lending enchantment. They both look better when you don't see them up close. I'll agree that Bush looks like an average guy on TV, appealing to the average guy. He even says the right thing often. But watching (from up close) what he DOES tells another story.

Bush is totally concerned with business, industry, the military, and the rich. The average guy is not in his vision except in photo ops. I just hope the army of the currently unemployed (a record number, I beleve) and economically marginalized remember to vote in 2004.

He wants to turn over social security and medicare (govenment programs that help the elderly) to business interests, who will not have the same commitment to their clients. He has also created a program to turn over part of public education to the private sector. I have mixed emotions over that because of my dissatisfaction with public education.

He has made a mockery of environmental protection in favor of industry. His disregard of the UN and his unilateral policies have made the world a more dangerous place. He may have some good points, but they pall in comparison to the menace he represents (because he DOES have the clout).
Shos
shostakovich
1st Chair
 
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2000 1:01 am
Location: windsor, ct, usa

Re: Others.

Postby dai bread 1 » Sun Jul 20, 2003 8:25 pm

Originally posted by shostakovich:
......but they pall in comparison to the menace he represents (because he DOES have the clout).
Shos
Oh, yes. :(

I am now beginning to worry that all those stories having Our Hero fight American oppression are going to be prescient. This disturbs me deeply, because my dealings with Americans have shown them to be nice people, and I would hate to have to join an anti-American camp. :(

I take some comfort from the various Congressional investigations that are under way; in particular, the one that will ask both Clinton & Bush to explain why 9/11 happened. :(
Omnia me Graeci est.
dai bread 1
4th Chair
 
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2003 1:01 am
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: Others.

Postby haggis » Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:49 am

We have to be careful here simply because I respect everyone posting here and believe that reasonable people can disagree, that’s what’s so great about this country. Despite the rants of the “Left” or the “Right” we are a strong country and will remain that way.

Shos, the jobless numbers for the last 54 years are available here. 2002 is the first year the jobless rate exceeds 5 % (5.8%) since 1994. Actually from 1970 until 1994 there were only 7 years when the jobless rate was less than 5.8%.

Only during six of those years was a Democrat President and the only job gains under a Dem was during President Clinton’s watch. So if Presidents get credit for building jobs then the record is mixed.

Look, I’m not making light of unemployment or the miseries associated with it. I was unemployed 16 months and know very well the unavoidable feelings of uselessness that attends losing a job. I had been employed since 1967 and never had lost a job before! I’d never even LOOKED for a job; they found me.

But, I have to be frank when I say that every time I look at how hard left the DEMs are going, I can’t help but believe that despite my moderate beliefs <I voted for CARTER fer crying out loud!> there is no one in the Democratic party that inspires confidence.

There are truths that must be dealt with and one of them is we DID invade and defeat Iraq. What my feelings are about that are irrelevant. We must deal with the results. Right now all I hear is a bunch of politicians arguing about whether we SHOULD have done it or not, not reassuring.

And, despite my misgivings about our current president, one comment of his resonates in my soul; “the soft bigotry of low expectations.” After the U. of Mich flap I’m not sure that description is just hyperbole, especially in light that “Asian Americans” are not considered a “minority;” highly suspect.

‘Nuff said, I hope I didn’t offend anyone and I’m going back to the “helicoptering’ thread!!!
Haggis

A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing
haggis
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1150
Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 12:01 am
Location: warm, humid, and wonderfully sticky Dallas, Texas!!

Re: Others.

Postby shostakovich » Mon Jul 21, 2003 11:32 am

Hi Haggis. Thanks for introducing some FACTS into the discussion. As I scanned the dates I was surprised about unemployment during the Kennedy years. His term seemed like an awakening period. Apparently not for reducing unemployment. I admit my hatred of Bush and company (the first time I ever felt that way about a president or an administration) can affect a balanced approach. I also agree that most of the democratic candidates are uninspiring (even ludicrous in some cases). I only hope they don't sink each other on the way to nomination. Whoever gets the call will get my vote if only because he's not George W Bush. Hope the "helicoptering thread" was more relaxing.
Shos
shostakovich
1st Chair
 
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2000 1:01 am
Location: windsor, ct, usa

Re: Others.

Postby jmfryar » Mon Jul 21, 2003 12:04 pm

There was a dynasty in China that made every decision by reading the entrails of turtles...they managed to keep it together for 600 years...I don't think you can lay too much blame on the president, or too much praise - it's an office and a job. The country has gotten along quite fine under utter incompetence, but then so has every other country.

Although Englands tax rate in the 80's was utterly out of control...sheesh.

I'd rather some services, like Social Security, went private. It's gonna vanish ANYWAY before I see it, might as well give it a shot doing something different.

Besides, why is corporate always seen as evil? It's neither good nor evil, just existing for the sake of itself, like any other tool. It can do good acts or bad acts, depending on who is using it.

Granting Social Security over to a private enterprise would remove it from the endless red tape and allow for greater freedom within it.

Besides, the whole retirement thing was just another scam to open up the job market to younger employees anyway...I don't think I know of anyone who is fully retired...

ALthough the post office keeps reporting profits and then raises the price on stamps - true, still the cheapest in the world (and then there's the value when you consider the size of the country - woooo-eee!)but hey, not something I can do anything about...
jmfryar
3rd Chair
 
Posts: 661
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:01 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: Others.

Postby Serenity » Mon Jul 21, 2003 12:26 pm

Can 6% unemployed be seen as 94% employed? How big of a chunk of those employed are underemployed or earning less than livable wages? Can a politician boast of creating jobs if the jobs are "less than desirable"?
Serenity
1st Chair
 
Posts: 4666
Joined: Sun May 18, 2003 12:01 am

Re: Others.

Postby haggis » Mon Jul 21, 2003 2:12 pm

Ludovica,

I haven’t ignored your comments; I just wanted to think about them for a while.

In the near East it is ridiculous to say that our values are universal values.

I beg to disagree. In 1900, most of the world’s population lived in one of the world's empires – British, Russian, Austro-Hungarian, Chinese or Turkish – and those rulers were with few limits, absolute monarchs. Therefore, the universal value then appear to be the divine right conferred to monarchies to rule.

In the 1830s and 1840s, a series of democratic revolutions occurred throughout Europe modeled on the American and French revolution. Most of them were harshly put down.

I can’t resist commenting on that glorious storming of the Bastille, so recently celebrated in France. According to Simon Schama in his book Citizens, seven prisoners were liberated-- two lunatics, four forgers, and an aristocratic delinquent who had been committed with the Marquis De Sade (who left a week before the Bastille fell). Liberte!

Although, in all fairness the concepts of liberty and the Declaration of Independence own much to many ideas from the age of European Enlightenment: John Locke, the right to life, liberty and property; Voltaire, freedom of speech and religious tolerance; Baron de Montesquieu, separation of powers

After World War II, most of northern, western and southern Europe, America, Japan, South America and the parts of the former British Empire, practiced some form of democracy.

Today, as a new millenium begins, democracy is almost the most widely practiced political systems in the world.

I have been in most of the countries of the Middle East and lived for a time in Libya, Saudi Arabia, and Bahrain. I think all humans want the ability to control their lives and deserve whatever help we can offer to help them achieve that goal.

Look at the richest countries of the world, they are mostly democracies –alas Hong Kong WAS a democracy. Representational government seems to work better than any other and clearly prospers better than any other.

America will doubtless tire soon of its involvement in Iraq as it did in Somalia in the mid 90s

Not a good example. I was there from the beginning, the UN change to a man-hunt from a relief operation and loss of focus from the original purpose contributed to a timid withdrawal; nothing to be proud of, the country still remains the world’s only 4th World Country, an anarchy of thug rule and murder.

but really Mr. Blair, however highly you may think of him in the US is a busted flush in England, and there are just too many areas where he has proved himself unworthy of the people of this country in the way that he has systematically set about to restructure the country in his own image with no concern for our history and true interests.

I think I’ll have to interject a reply that I found on James Lileks’ The Bleat(marvelous blogger very refreshing.

I lived in England when Lady Thatcher was elected PM. I think that was a major change for the better, but what the heck, as you said, we in the U.S. have a higher approval of Mr. Blair than his own citizens, it wasn’t so long ago that the same could be said about or last president so what do I know!


James Lileks

What I found most invigorating about the speech was the tenor - the tune, not the notes. It was a speech sung in the key of War, and reminded us that we are just midway through the end of the beginning. If that.

Blair is, at heart, a socialist; I’ve no time for half the stuff he wants and most of the stuff he’d agree to. But he’d get my vote. We can argue about the shape and direction of Western Civ after we’ve made sure that such a thing will endure. I haven’t heard every single speech Tony Blair has made since he popped on to the political scene; I don’t know if he argues for increased license fees for domestic gerbils with the same passion and force. But today he sounded like a man who knew things, who knows that the threat is still grave, and cannot understand why others seek transient political advantage in exploiting those sixteen words. The people are worried, your majesty! Oh, let them eat yellowcake.

When I hear a speech like Blair’s, I have to check the calendar. And the calendar is usually wrong. It may say 2/23, or 7/16, or 4/30. But I know what the date is, and the date is 9/12. It’s going to be 9/12 for a long time to come.

But, I don't think I know of anyone with your marvelous knowledge of Beethoven!!!!

<small>[ 07-21-2003, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Haggis ]</small>
Haggis

A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing
haggis
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1150
Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 12:01 am
Location: warm, humid, and wonderfully sticky Dallas, Texas!!

Re: Others.

Postby jmfryar » Mon Jul 21, 2003 3:17 pm

When you say the rest of the world practices democracy, I'm curious as to what you mean by that.

For instance, the United States is a republic, as far from democracy as Russia was from communism...
jmfryar
3rd Chair
 
Posts: 661
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:01 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: Others.

Postby haggis » Mon Jul 21, 2003 3:42 pm

I believe I said:

democracy is almost the most widely practiced political systems in the world.
By "democracy" I mean any citizen representational form of government. Yes, the United States is constitutionally defined as “representational republic” and England’s form of democracy is actual a parliamentarian government.

My main point is that since 1900 the numbers of countries embracing some form of government that had at its heart the rule of law by its citizens increased dramatically.

Actually, the common denominator to all truly representational governments is the documented mechanism that permits a peaceful change from one administration to a succeeding administration.

That lack of a mechanism in the old Soviet Union justified President Reagan’s characterization of the Soviet Government as the “evil empire” and his refusal to recognize that it was a legitimate government of its people; prescient I would say.
Haggis

A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing
haggis
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1150
Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 12:01 am
Location: warm, humid, and wonderfully sticky Dallas, Texas!!

Re: Others.

Postby shostakovich » Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:08 pm

Hi JM. Medicare works. It will work as long as the government wants it to. It's only fairly recently that scare tactics have come out about its demise on the horizon. That rumor helps sell the idea of privatizing. As long as it is a government-run beaurocracy, we have some control by voting for those who best would steward it. In the hands of private companies, we would have no control over its health. How many evidences of corporate corruption and abandonment of clients do we need to see to abhor privatization? Medicare will be there when you need it as long as the government exists. Some long standing insurers in our state are teetering now. One of my sons works for one. They have been laying off for almost a year now, and expect to continue doing so through 2003. Medicare needs tending, not abolishment.
And, by the way, I am fully retired. The down side is having the time to look around and see what needs correcting. That goes directly to the math teacher syndrome of "correcting mistakes". Of course math mistakes are easy to correct. Human mistakes are far less clear.

I once read a difference between Democracy and Republic. I don't think dictionaries see it this specifically, but I found it interesting.
In a Republic a body is chosen to represent the people. This body will do what IT thinks best for the people, and is not answerable to the people themselves.
In a democracy the difference is that the representative body can be changed at the will of the people.
We have a republic with some democratic principles such as the periodic vote to change the body. Yet we, the people do not nominate. We can only choose from among those the major parties select. It would be possible to have national referenda about important issues (more of a democracy) in which the people actually make choices. I'm not sure that's preferable, but I'd like to see it tried on some issues just to find out.
Just thought I'd toss this into the mix.
Shos
shostakovich
1st Chair
 
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2000 1:01 am
Location: windsor, ct, usa

Re: Others.

Postby haggis » Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:06 am

Shos,
I've always heard about the evils of the two party system and how it restricts choice. I suppose there is some truth to that but when I contrast our system against those in Italy, Germany, and most of Europe I personally prefer our albeit flawed system.

A “purist” would define the U.S., England and several other successful countries as “limited democracies” because we have two, maybe three, party representation. Unlike more “pure democracies” with 5, 6, 7 or more parties, often with narrowly define objectives based on regional, religious or even tribal affiliation. Frequently, these smaller parties care nothing about national agenda or any concerns outside their own and are willing to play “brinkmanship” with the other parties to achieve their own goals.

I have nothing against that form of democracy since it probably is more true to the concept of democracy. I do, however, believe that those governments have a lot of trouble doing anything without pander to those smaller parties, seeking their support on more nationalistic goals.

Greater personal liberties are supposed to be greater in countries whose governments are inwardly oriented; Costa Rico, Canada, and Japan spend virtually nothing on defense, supposedly allowing more for domestic spending. Maybe so, possibly I can’t see the benefits because I don’t spend much time in those countries. I also feel there a certain immorality in abdicating your national defense to surrounding neighbors

Of course, the extremes of limited democracy, Singapore and (British) Hong Kong for example, have achieved amazing national objectives but possibly at the risk of restricting personal liberties to a point that many of us would resent.

Is there a balance? I don’t think so in the schoolyard, teeter totter sense. I see a sliding balance with the weights of liberties and national objectives growing and shrinking as internal and external circumstances dictate. For instance right now, our country has declared war on the extremes of Islamic Fundamentalism. The weight of the national objective is so large now that the pivot is closer to that side that the liberties side.

This is not new, during WWII a whole lot more Americans than some Japanese Americans were locked up without due process. St. Elizabeth’s mental Hospital outside D.C. had a lot of patients whose mental attitudes were more extreme than their mental health! And yes, we did lock up German Americans although you’ll seldom hear about that.

Will it continue toward totalitarianism? No, we won’t allow it to. We have a brake in our country, in addition to our marvelous contrived separate branches of the administration, the legislation and the judiciary we have at our core the belief in the rule of law. We don’t have “strong arm” men taking over government. The last time that almost happened – FDR – we recognized our mistake and corrected it with the 22nd amendment.

Sorry, I could go on a lot longer but I have to work and I realize that I tend to ramble on. I guess I ‘m trying to convey that we are a strong nation, used to controversy and uproar and we can survive anything for eight years. We have, several times before.
Haggis

A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing
haggis
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1150
Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 12:01 am
Location: warm, humid, and wonderfully sticky Dallas, Texas!!

Re: Others.

Postby jmfryar » Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:13 am

It was not exactly Japans choice not to have a military...and now that the term has expired, they are building it up again.

I was refering to Social Security, as in retirement fnds, not Medicare as a benefit. And Although Medicare may be around in some form or another, I'd be a fool to rely on Social Security being around when I am of retirement age (which is SO far in the future, I can't even begin to ponder it.)

A democracy in pure form has nothing to do with party representation - a pure democracy would require that each and every citizen have a say in what occurs. This was possible in the small Greek city states, where the population would gather in a common meeting place, debate the issues, and make determinations by voting (they'd sit on one side or the other of the venue to demonstrate their opinions, and switch sides as they were swayed by speakers).

Once you move beyond a certain size, it is not feasible - population is too large and takes too long to communicate. Although we may be moving back in that direction with the internet...I still wonder what happened to voting through the ATM network - that was supposed to be a go in 2000.

With regard to products - when Japan first entered the auto market, the cars were TERRIBLE...but their advertising scheme, no kidding, was "Buy two, they're cheap!" And with the gas crunch, and their milage, they took off.

All products get better as you go - what various other nations have done is taken our products and torn them apart to figure out how they work. The issue is a serious one - most companies spend BILLIONS on R&D and have to recoup that cost. If a company comes along and copies the technology, then they're out a couple grand and that's it. This is why they can undercut prices - it's not necessarily that they are more efficient, just that they are better at piracy.

Advertising is also a large part of it - For instance Beta is a far superior product, but VHS had a better campaign and expanded more rapidly.
jmfryar
3rd Chair
 
Posts: 661
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:01 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: Others.

Postby Ludovica » Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:08 pm

Originally posted by Haggis:
Ludovica,

I haven’t ignored your comments; I just wanted to think about them for a while.

In the near East it is ridiculous to say that our values are universal values.

I beg to disagree. In 1900, most of the world’s population lived in one of the world's empires – British, Russian, Austro-Hungarian, Chinese or Turkish – and those rulers were with few limits, absolute monarchs. Therefore, the universal value then appear to be the divine right conferred to monarchies to rule.

In the 1830s and 1840s, a series of democratic revolutions occurred throughout Europe modeled on the American and French revolution. Most of them were harshly put down.

I can’t resist commenting on that glorious storming of the Bastille, so recently celebrated in France. According to Simon Schama in his book Citizens, seven prisoners were liberated-- two lunatics, four forgers, and an aristocratic delinquent who had been committed with the Marquis De Sade (who left a week before the Bastille fell). Liberte!

Although, in all fairness the concepts of liberty and the Declaration of Independence own much to many ideas from the age of European Enlightenment: John Locke, the right to life, liberty and property; Voltaire, freedom of speech and religious tolerance; Baron de Montesquieu, separation of powers

After World War II, most of northern, western and southern Europe, America, Japan, South America and the parts of the former British Empire, practiced some form of democracy.

Today, as a new millenium begins, democracy is almost the most widely practiced political systems in the world.

I have been in most of the countries of the Middle East and lived for a time in Libya, Saudi Arabia, and Bahrain. I think all humans want the ability to control their lives and deserve whatever help we can offer to help them achieve that goal.

Look at the richest countries of the world, they are mostly democracies –alas Hong Kong WAS a democracy. Representational government seems to work better than any other and clearly prospers better than any other.

America will doubtless tire soon of its involvement in Iraq as it did in Somalia in the mid 90s

Not a good example. I was there from the beginning, the UN change to a man-hunt from a relief operation and loss of focus from the original purpose contributed to a timid withdrawal; nothing to be proud of, the country still remains the world’s only 4th World Country, an anarchy of thug rule and murder.

but really Mr. Blair, however highly you may think of him in the US is a busted flush in England, and there are just too many areas where he has proved himself unworthy of the people of this country in the way that he has systematically set about to restructure the country in his own image with no concern for our history and true interests.

I think I’ll have to interject a reply that I found on James Lileks’ The Bleat(marvelous blogger very refreshing.

I lived in England when Lady Thatcher was elected PM. I think that was a major change for the better, but what the heck, as you said, we in the U.S. have a higher approval of Mr. Blair than his own citizens, it wasn’t so long ago that the same could be said about or last president so what do I know!


James Lileks

What I found most invigorating about the speech was the tenor - the tune, not the notes. It was a speech sung in the key of War, and reminded us that we are just midway through the end of the beginning. If that.

Blair is, at heart, a socialist; I’ve no time for half the stuff he wants and most of the stuff he’d agree to. But he’d get my vote. We can argue about the shape and direction of Western Civ after we’ve made sure that such a thing will endure. I haven’t heard every single speech Tony Blair has made since he popped on to the political scene; I don’t know if he argues for increased license fees for domestic gerbils with the same passion and force. But today he sounded like a man who knew things, who knows that the threat is still grave, and cannot understand why others seek transient political advantage in exploiting those sixteen words. The people are worried, your majesty! Oh, let them eat yellowcake.

When I hear a speech like Blair’s, I have to check the calendar. And the calendar is usually wrong. It may say 2/23, or 7/16, or 4/30. But I know what the date is, and the date is 9/12. It’s going to be 9/12 for a long time to come.

But, I don't think I know of anyone with your marvelous knowledge of Beethoven!!!!
Thankyou so much for your comments, Haggis.
Just a couple of points, yes I do understand Mr. Blair has struck a cord with the great American people, and who am I to doubt the folk wisdom of the greatest nation on earth.
All I would say is with great respect you just really don't know the guy. The most un-English, English man you could find, with utter contempt for his own people and history, and let me tell you he has not the slightest clue about what he is talking about. But there we are.
Your are surely not suggesting, Haggis, democracy is on the march in the crumbling empires of the world, forgive me for saying this,
but only the British Empire gave some semblance of democracy, ie. to India and parts of Africa, India in particular should be a source of pride to Britian, with its immense population and terrible religious strife, somehow the British Legacy of Democracy lives on there.
Africa of course is far more tragic, and has many serious problems, which I am sure most people can properly appreciate.
Russia is of course a decaying has been which like Rasputin is trying valliantly to rise from the dead no matter how many bullets are pumped in to it. The country is virtually governed by the Mafia. It never properly industrialized and millions died as Lenin and Stalin tried and insane race to catch up with the west.
It has never know democracy and the way it is going, never will. There is no rule of law in effect and the courts don't really function. Putin is trying his best and deserves support.
The only glimpses of the west Russians have, is to confirm them in their resentful posture and to yearn for the good old days. There is absolutely no sense that the Russians are somehow crying out to become democrats, or really understand what it is, and no doubt that is due to the parlous state of the country.
And that is despite the fact that many Russians are highly educated people. It hardly bodes well for the ever widening reach of democracy.
China is of course schizophrenic, wisely judging in line with its ancient wisdom that in the country of the blind,the one eyed man is king.
China is a harsh totalitarian state that sees the advantage of economic liberalization, but absolutely no mileage whatsoever in western democracy. Possibly rightly, because it has got the best of both worlds, for its leaders that is, and not the ordinary people.
So, in China, Russia, and many parts of Africa, non democracy prevails.
I was interested in your personal recollections of the near East. I am sure everyone there and indeed most people on the globe would like a better life, but wishing doesn't make it so.
Blair, of course, would not understand this, because he thinks history is bunk, but those who forget history, as they say, are condemned to repeat it. I have not mentioned the religious differences in the middle east and politeness dictates that I should keep silent here I think, all I would say is that, though of course an individual can transcend and transform his circumstances, primarily that person will be borne into powerful social, economic political circumstances, and if we are talking about the life of the nation or the state in a given area, to simply lecture them about the benefits of democracy with no understanding of why or how democracy has developed in the west, and what is lacking to support the growth of it else where is really I have to say, quite silly and meaningless.
You refer to the French Revolution, which of course for all the witticisms of intellectuals drenched many thousands of innocent people in a tidal wave of blood and led to the Battle of the Napoleonic wars, and in a sense all the way up to the first world war and fascism.
The obsession with the individual and individual rights nearly destroyed the whole of Europe and was I suppose the intellectual legacy bequethed to America, which in some senses America is still trying to work through and fully understand. Personally, I prefer Wellington to that maniac Napoleon, or even worse, Hitler.
That is to say, I prefer anti-revolutionary, civilized standards, a firm grasp on reallity and a helping hand to others where ever possible.
Oh, yes and also, cool rational genius like Wellington.

************************************************
Ludovica
5th Chair
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:01 am
Location: London

Re: Others.

Postby Marye » Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:20 pm

This is my favourite thread right now! Dead fascinating
Marye
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1662
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 12:01 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Re: Others.

Postby lliam » Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:28 pm

Lliam (Mr Real Estate):
I’m not really into politics, BUT I can speak up a little for my country and Government whom I voted for. I can also be cynical of the Government in as nice a possible way as I can without being ‘Nasty’. “Are you with me Ludovica”? This is my fair comment on my Prime Minister.

So routinely is he now portrayed in the press as the most brazen shyster to occupy Number 10, you can easily forget that Tony Blair is one of the most successful Prime Ministers ever to govern Britain. He has won a three-figure parliamentary majority and he has done so twice. He has enjoyed a lead in the polls virtually unbroken for more than five years. This ought to confer him with a reserve of gravitas in his trials of strength with the media. He should be able to command a degree of public credibility, invoke some moral authority in the Government's increasingly vicious war with its unelected enemies in the press. When newspapers with an evident agenda to undermine his government charge him with trying to aggrandise his role in the mourning for the Queen Mother, Mr Blair ought to be able to issue a simple rebuke to his tormentors: who voted for you?
That he does not, dares not, call on his democratic mandate against the right-wing press tells us how his government has contrived to shift the balance of advantage against itself. The hideous irony for Mr Blair is that he is sustaining so much damage at the hands of the media that New Labour was specifically designed to neutralise. And it is precisely the techniques they adopted to combat the press which are now being used to depict him as the habitually scummy leader of a daily mendacious regime.
From the inception of New Labour, it was a media strategy as much as it was a political vehicle. The two men who conceived its approach towards the media, Alistair Campbell and Peter Mendelssohn, had both watched in despair as the press, especially the right-wing tabloids, dismembered the public character of their friend, Neil Kinnock. They determined to do better by Tony Blair, who was himself as convinced as the other two that elections could not be won without winning the media.
To beat the press, they joined it. They ran a party as if it were a newspaper. Mr Campbell was appointed editor-in-chief of the Daily Blair. The Prime Minister has always been an extremely hands-on proprietor. Those who have seen it happen describe how he will stride into meetings demanding: 'How are we following up that? What are we doing to kill that?', as though he were addressing reporters in a newsroom.
They have conducted themselves not as a government, something detached from and grander than journalism, but as a rival media group, scrapping in the gutter of a ratings war. Just as newspapers compress complexity into headlines, so they believed that the presentation of policy could be crudely condensed. Just as newspapers try to build circulation with 'exclusives', so has this government attempted to boost popularity with ‘initiatives’?
Just a closer examination reveals quite a lot of newspaper 'exclusives' to be rehashes of old stories, so quite a lot of this government's announcements turn out to be recycled. Just as newspapers dig for dirt to discredit their targets, so New Labour used character assassination for its own battles, external and internal. It was Mr Campbell who famously suggested that Mr Mendelssohn was a mango short of the full fruit bowl.
The British press can be glorious and it can be grotesque. In pursuit of their agendas, newspapers exaggerate and distort. They spin. The truth becomes a malleable commodity. Journalists sometimes simply make things up. The way to combat the crude excesses of the press, so New Labour believed, was to imitate them.
In his treatings with media owners, Mr Blair has presented himself not as their superior, but as an equal, as if he were just another press baron himself. He truckled to Richard Desmond, purveyor of Big Ones, in order to keep the Express papers within the New Labour stable. He obliged his wife to swallow her detestation of the Daily Mail and play hostess to its most rabid columnists and most right-wing executives. Particular care and attention has been lavished on Rupert Murdoch in the hope of softening his hostility to the single currency.
The Sun was given the last election date before the Queen and the Cabinet. The thanks for that are that the paper's political editor has joined those calling for Alastair Campbell to be purged. In the same week, Rupert Murdoch brutally squashed Mr Blair, along with any notion that his editors are free spirits, by declaring that he will die before his papers drop their virulent opposition to Europe.
All that effort to neutralise the media has had the counterproductive outcome of swelling its sense of power. In his own feverish hand, Mr Blair wrote that notorious memo demanding 'eye-catching initiatives' with which he could grab some headlines. When the media read that memo, when they smelt the fear sweating out of the Prime Minister, it fed the appetite of the beast. Rarely modest in estimating their own importance, journalists have been emboldened to act as if they are the real Opposition, even a sort of alternative government.
The Prime Minister has thus been the accomplice in the bleeding away of his authority and dignity. He evidently feels grossly traduced by the accusations that he tried to exploit the Queen Mother's lying-in-state. It was Mr Blair himself, more than anyone else at Number 10, more even than Alastair Campbell, who was vehement that they should lodge the complaint with the Press Complaints Commission which has backfired so disastrously. Mr Blair's judgment was clouded by red mist, with the result that he has transformed unproven gossip into a full-blown conflict, which has ended with a rout for Number 10 at the hands of the two right-wing newspaper groups it most detests.
Inevitably, it is Mr Campbell, a man who has never been shy of making enemies in the media, whose head is demanded. Before the last election, and again since, he has given serious thought to leaving Number 10. What is most likely to convince him to stay on are the calls for his resignation from such a bizarre ménage à trois as Lord Hattersley, Charlie Whelan and the political editor of the Spectator. According to one close ally: 'If there's one thing that makes him want to stick it out, it is these f***ers saying he should quit.' The vituperation of the language being used inside Number 10 tells us how deep is the fear and loathing between the Government and its enemies.
My guess is that Tony Blair is even more determined than Mr Campbell that the latter will not be sacrificed. On both sides, among the hunters and the hunted, there is the feeling that the media has the Government on the run. Peter Mandelson has twice been scalped by the press. The daily branding of Stephen Byers as a liar forced even that rubber man out of the Cabinet. The removal of Alastair Campbell, the destruction of the head of Mr Blair's Praetorian Guard, would intimate the Prime Minister's own mortality. Gordon Brown's supporters are struggling to hide their satisfaction. With Campbell gone, the crosshairs of the right-wing press would focus on the ultimate target, the big one: the Prime Minister himself.
New Labour and its enemies in the right-wing press are locked in a fearful symmetry of accusation and counter-accusation, each charging the other with being malicious pedlars of untruth. The Government cannot defeat the press at its own game and another of New Labour's mistakes was to believe that it ever could.
Charles Clarke, who bears the deep scars of the Kinnock years, had some strong points to make in his counter-blast against the media, though the party chairman would not have been so easy to ridicule if he had mobilised his case with more precision. Yes, the media can be 'pious', though piety is more the preserve of Tony 'purer than pure' Blair. Yes, the media do indeed poke about in people's private lives. When journalists do it, we celebrate it as legitimate inquiry in the public interest. When politicians seek background information about their opponents, the press lambaste them for 'dirty tricks' and 'smears'.
Yes, journalists can be extremely hypocritical. This is a point, but it is ultimately a pointless point for politicians to make. Bad behaviour by the press does not give public licence to politicians to act in the same way. Ministers now scrabble with journalists and estate agents at the bottom of the league table of public respect. New Labour's private polls and focus groups are telling Mr Blair that distrust and dishonesty have become the two most salient issues with the voters. Estate agents will still sell houses and newspapers will still sell copies even when their trades have fallen into disrepute. Governments that squander the trust of their electorates do not tend to hold on to office.
The most grievous error was to think that mimicking the worst elements of the press could beat the worst elements of the press. This has not secured the respect of the public. Nor even the media. Journalists know that their trade can be shameless, sensationalist, shallow, vain, vulgar, manipulative and duplicitous. Funnily enough, they expect governments to behave more responsibly than newspapers. If much of the press now hates this government, it is because New Labour has tried much too hard to be like the press.

That's my lot. :(
Lliam.

I spent 90% of my money on women and drink. The rest I wasted - George Best
lliam
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1698
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Darlaston - West - Midlands - U.K.

Re: Others.

Postby dai bread » Wed Jul 23, 2003 12:16 am

Wow, lliam! It seems the sooner you guys have another election, the better.

I've heard stories about the British press, but never really believed them. Seems I should. :eek:
We have no money; we must use our brains. -Ernest Rutherford.
dai bread
1st Chair
 
Posts: 3020
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cambridge, New Zealand

Re: Others.

Postby lliam » Wed Jul 23, 2003 6:17 am

[quote]Originally posted by dai bread:
[b] Wow, lliam! It seems the sooner you guys have another election, the better.

I've heard stories about the British press, but never really believed them. Seems I should. :(
=================================================
Ignatius, how do you expect to sing if you’re chewing a dandelion root?? “SPIT IT OUT BOY” :D
Lliam.

I spent 90% of my money on women and drink. The rest I wasted - George Best
lliam
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1698
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Darlaston - West - Midlands - U.K.

Re: Others.

Postby Ludovica » Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:58 pm

Originally posted by lliam:
Lliam (Mr Real Estate):
I’m not really into politics, BUT I can speak up a little for my country and Government whom I voted for. I can also be cynical of the Government in as nice a possible way as I can without being ‘Nasty’. “Are you with me Ludovica”? This is my fair comment on my Prime Minister.

So routinely is he now portrayed in the press as the most brazen shyster to occupy Number 10, you can easily forget that Tony Blair is one of the most successful Prime Ministers ever to govern Britain. He has won a three-figure parliamentary majority and he has done so twice. He has enjoyed a lead in the polls virtually unbroken for more than five years. This ought to confer him with a reserve of gravitas in his trials of strength with the media. He should be able to command a degree of public credibility, invoke some moral authority in the Government's increasingly vicious war with its unelected enemies in the press. When newspapers with an evident agenda to undermine his government charge him with trying to aggrandise his role in the mourning for the Queen Mother, Mr Blair ought to be able to issue a simple rebuke to his tormentors: who voted for you?
That he does not, dares not, call on his democratic mandate against the right-wing press tells us how his government has contrived to shift the balance of advantage against itself. The hideous irony for Mr Blair is that he is sustaining so much damage at the hands of the media that New Labour was specifically designed to neutralise. And it is precisely the techniques they adopted to combat the press which are now being used to depict him as the habitually scummy leader of a daily mendacious regime.
From the inception of New Labour, it was a media strategy as much as it was a political vehicle. The two men who conceived its approach towards the media, Alistair Campbell and Peter Mendelssohn, had both watched in despair as the press, especially the right-wing tabloids, dismembered the public character of their friend, Neil Kinnock. They determined to do better by Tony Blair, who was himself as convinced as the other two that elections could not be won without winning the media.
To beat the press, they joined it. They ran a party as if it were a newspaper. Mr Campbell was appointed editor-in-chief of the Daily Blair. The Prime Minister has always been an extremely hands-on proprietor. Those who have seen it happen describe how he will stride into meetings demanding: 'How are we following up that? What are we doing to kill that?', as though he were addressing reporters in a newsroom.
They have conducted themselves not as a government, something detached from and grander than journalism, but as a rival media group, scrapping in the gutter of a ratings war. Just as newspapers compress complexity into headlines, so they believed that the presentation of policy could be crudely condensed. Just as newspapers try to build circulation with 'exclusives', so has this government attempted to boost popularity with ‘initiatives’?
Just a closer examination reveals quite a lot of newspaper 'exclusives' to be rehashes of old stories, so quite a lot of this government's announcements turn out to be recycled. Just as newspapers dig for dirt to discredit their targets, so New Labour used character assassination for its own battles, external and internal. It was Mr Campbell who famously suggested that Mr Mendelssohn was a mango short of the full fruit bowl.
The British press can be glorious and it can be grotesque. In pursuit of their agendas, newspapers exaggerate and distort. They spin. The truth becomes a malleable commodity. Journalists sometimes simply make things up. The way to combat the crude excesses of the press, so New Labour believed, was to imitate them.
In his treatings with media owners, Mr Blair has presented himself not as their superior, but as an equal, as if he were just another press baron himself. He truckled to Richard Desmond, purveyor of Big Ones, in order to keep the Express papers within the New Labour stable. He obliged his wife to swallow her detestation of the Daily Mail and play hostess to its most rabid columnists and most right-wing executives. Particular care and attention has been lavished on Rupert Murdoch in the hope of softening his hostility to the single currency.
The Sun was given the last election date before the Queen and the Cabinet. The thanks for that are that the paper's political editor has joined those calling for Alastair Campbell to be purged. In the same week, Rupert Murdoch brutally squashed Mr Blair, along with any notion that his editors are free spirits, by declaring that he will die before his papers drop their virulent opposition to Europe.
All that effort to neutralise the media has had the counterproductive outcome of swelling its sense of power. In his own feverish hand, Mr Blair wrote that notorious memo demanding 'eye-catching initiatives' with which he could grab some headlines. When the media read that memo, when they smelt the fear sweating out of the Prime Minister, it fed the appetite of the beast. Rarely modest in estimating their own importance, journalists have been emboldened to act as if they are the real Opposition, even a sort of alternative government.
The Prime Minister has thus been the accomplice in the bleeding away of his authority and dignity. He evidently feels grossly traduced by the accusations that he tried to exploit the Queen Mother's lying-in-state. It was Mr Blair himself, more than anyone else at Number 10, more even than Alastair Campbell, who was vehement that they should lodge the complaint with the Press Complaints Commission which has backfired so disastrously. Mr Blair's judgment was clouded by red mist, with the result that he has transformed unproven gossip into a full-blown conflict, which has ended with a rout for Number 10 at the hands of the two right-wing newspaper groups it most detests.
Inevitably, it is Mr Campbell, a man who has never been shy of making enemies in the media, whose head is demanded. Before the last election, and again since, he has given serious thought to leaving Number 10. What is most likely to convince him to stay on are the calls for his resignation from such a bizarre ménage à trois as Lord Hattersley, Charlie Whelan and the political editor of the Spectator. According to one close ally: 'If there's one thing that makes him want to stick it out, it is these f***ers saying he should quit.' The vituperation of the language being used inside Number 10 tells us how deep is the fear and loathing between the Government and its enemies.
My guess is that Tony Blair is even more determined than Mr Campbell that the latter will not be sacrificed. On both sides, among the hunters and the hunted, there is the feeling that the media has the Government on the run. Peter Mandelson has twice been scalped by the press. The daily branding of Stephen Byers as a liar forced even that rubber man out of the Cabinet. The removal of Alastair Campbell, the destruction of the head of Mr Blair's Praetorian Guard, would intimate the Prime Minister's own mortality. Gordon Brown's supporters are struggling to hide their satisfaction. With Campbell gone, the crosshairs of the right-wing press would focus on the ultimate target, the big one: the Prime Minister himself.
New Labour and its enemies in the right-wing press are locked in a fearful symmetry of accusation and counter-accusation, each charging the other with being malicious pedlars of untruth. The Government cannot defeat the press at its own game and another of New Labour's mistakes was to believe that it ever could.
Charles Clarke, who bears the deep scars of the Kinnock years, had some strong points to make in his counter-blast against the media, though the party chairman would not have been so easy to ridicule if he had mobilised his case with more precision. Yes, the media can be 'pious', though piety is more the preserve of Tony 'purer than pure' Blair. Yes, the media do indeed poke about in people's private lives. When journalists do it, we celebrate it as legitimate inquiry in the public interest. When politicians seek background information about their opponents, the press lambaste them for 'dirty tricks' and 'smears'.
Yes, journalists can be extremely hypocritical. This is a point, but it is ultimately a pointless point for politicians to make. Bad behaviour by the press does not give public licence to politicians to act in the same way. Ministers now scrabble with journalists and estate agents at the bottom of the league table of public respect. New Labour's private polls and focus groups are telling Mr Blair that distrust and dishonesty have become the two most salient issues with the voters. Estate agents will still sell houses and newspapers will still sell copies even when their trades have fallen into disrepute. Governments that squander the trust of their electorates do not tend to hold on to office.
The most grievous error was to think that mimicking the worst elements of the press could beat the worst elements of the press. This has not secured the respect of the public. Nor even the media. Journalists know that their trade can be shameless, sensationalist, shallow, vain, vulgar, manipulative and duplicitous. Funnily enough, they expect governments to behave more responsibly than newspapers. If much of the press now hates this government, it is because New Labour has tried much too hard to be like the press.

That's my lot. :(
Lliam, I pretty much agree with everything you said and the excellent way you put it.
Yes, the right wing is very strong in Britian, but I don't mind that, because I am a bit of a
fascist myself. But I would like to say that with the woeful state of the conservative party and its non entity leader, the press is, heaven help us, just about the only opposition we have got. I am not viscerally anti-labour, its just that the same clapped out theories keep being churned out by labour new and old. In the sixties, and I don't wish to speak ill of the dead, but we had Harold Wilson going on and on about the white heat of the technological revolution and now we have Blair all wired up to the internet and still refusing, in typicall labour fashion to engage in debate or answer the fundamental question which just seems to baffle them utterly, what is Britian, and who are the British?. I agree completely with what you are saying about the government becoming a media circus or party, but I don't particularly blame Campbell, you look to the organ grinder, not the monkey. I think I am right in saying that Blair has created more ridiculous, so called advisory posts that any other prime minister in history at vast tax payer expense. Now I know our Tony is not very bright upstairs, and hasn't read a serious book since he was a failed rock artist at Oxford, but it is quite incredible that these posts have been allowed to proliferate as though the man is so illiterate and dumb, he simply cannot find out for himself the most basic facts about aspects of government policy. Where I start to get very angry, is when this ridiculous public school twit, tells us that it is all about improving democracy, let me tell you, I have written a couple of letters, mild in tone and simply asking for the prime ministers view on a certain issue, and I get a pre-printed form from the so called office of direct communication of no.10, an Orwellian institution, if every there was one, thanking me for my letter and saying that the office will be writting to me , and of course it never does.
Far from me ever believing that the Prime Minister would condesend to deal with a serious point, he is far too interested in meeting his drop out friends in the pop world.
There is a serious aspect to this, and this is for the benefit of all our American friends.
Before the shocking events of September 11th. Blair was in Moscow lecturing Putin on human right issues in Chechnya. After he had finished his hippie type lecture, on peace and love in that troubled region, Putin turned round to him and said, but Mr. Prime Minister, these people you are supporting excecuted seven British Engineers who were working to re-build the country and place their severed heads on the road outside Grozny. Russian forces are now looking for these killers of your own countrymen.
Are you not aware of this, or have you not read, or just not interested. Blair hastily terminated the meeting. We have since seen further horrors perpetrated by these maniancs in the Moscow cinema last year, and may I mention that they were a substantial contingent to the Taliban in Afghanistan. When one does not read anything apart from the new musical express and celebrity news, of course, one gets a slightly distorted view of the world. But to think such a person is now Prime Minister is unimaginable and yet true. It was a great tragedy for the country when John Smith, the labour leader, died suddenly, and this appalling sixties drop out assumed power.

:( :(

<small>[ 07-23-2003, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Ludovica ]</small>
Ludovica
5th Chair
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:01 am
Location: London

Re: Others.

Postby lliam » Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:38 pm

quote by Ludovica

Yes, the right wing is very strong in Britian, but I don't mind that, because I am a bit of a
fascist myself.
=======================

Oh well, say no more Ludovica.

=================================================

Ignatius, how do you expect to sing if you’re chewing a dandelion root?? “SPIT IT OUT BOY”
Lliam.

I spent 90% of my money on women and drink. The rest I wasted - George Best
lliam
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1698
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Darlaston - West - Midlands - U.K.

Re: Others.

Postby Ludovica » Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:19 am

Originally posted by lliam:
quote by Ludovica

Yes, the right wing is very strong in Britian, but I don't mind that, because I am a bit of a
fascist myself.
=======================

Oh well, say no more Ludovica.

=================================================
a
Yes, the seriuos point I am trying to make, and which has been noted by various commentators is this. We do not have any sort of credible sort of parliamentary opposition. Inevitably therefore, the press, and as you say the right wing press at that, has rushed into that void, because nature and politics abhors a vacuum, (Like the space between 'New labours ears').
It is I would respectfully suggest perfectly natural for this to happen, particularly given that, as you rightly say, the government itself is just a publicity and media machine and the only body capable of opposing it is the press.
I suppose the most overwhelming point about the present government is that it simply does not listen to anyone in its obsession with spin, ie. deceit and lies.
The point about Blair is that he want's to be everybodies friend like a typical hippie, and for a man who seems to set great store by his religion, he seems to have not the slightest conception or appreciation of the reallity of evil and wickedness in the world. But then that is a typical labour thing, trying to recreate the world, without having any grasp whatsoever on reallity. Perhaps I am just a realist, not as I half jokingly refered to a fascist.

Blair, as a friend of mine once put it, bears the impression of the last person that sat on him, ie. he just goes from moment to moment with no thought or appreciation of history, character, or where the country is going.
:eek:


Ignatius, how do you expect to sing if you’re chewing a dandelion root?? “SPIT IT OUT BOY”
Ludovica
5th Chair
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:01 am
Location: London

PreviousNext

Return to The Debate Team

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot]

cron