Apollo 13

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Re: Apollo 13

Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:58 pm

Shap was just being a tad witty - I enjoyed the "zing". It's Monday, a smile is appreciated.

Re the Mars idea; I'm not too sure about sending actors, but somebody will probably end up there.

I grew up on science fiction and still buy a bunch of it. I thought that Heinlein was right when I was 12, and I still think so. Keeping all your eggs in one basket is not the smartest way of keeping eggs. Making more baskets is a better long-term stragegy. We should have people living in more than one place.

Exploration and pioneering are risky activities, it's true. But we're all the descendents of pioneers and explorers. We try to mitigate the risks, and minimize the casualties, but risk does remain. And the benefits of new discoveries can be enormous.

The last nitwit to complain at me about the cost of research and exploration didn't realize that the whole "space exploration" budget that he was whining about had funded the fundamental discoveries that resulted in the cell phone in his pocket, the pda and portable computer on the "visitor" desk, the microminiturized electronics in his hearing aid, and the batteries in his pacemaker.

Ships sink; do we quit sailing? Cars crash; we still drive. Trains have wrecks. Airplanes? Need I mention airplanes? These are all things that resulted from loonies taking risks and making discoveries, followed by engineers cleaning up and developing the inventors' efforts.

I still sincerely envy Christa McAuliff. We've lost how many shuttles? Out of how many flights? This level of risk is acceptable to me. Where do I sign up? I'd love to ride the shuttle.

Never mind the FRS. Gimme a space helmet!

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Re: Apollo 13

Postby barfle » Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:14 pm

Many voyages of exploration were funded by governments (or monarchs, which could be construed as the same thing). But most of that exploration would go for nothing if there weren't a valid econimical reason to continue going to the places that were found.

From my recent visits to Jamestown, the settlements in the new world would have been abandoned if it handn't been for the discovery of (sorry about this) tobacco, and it's delightful effects on the European populace. Before Europeans took up the habit, the settlements were in dire straits, and many of them failed.

Going to Mars would be a great adventure, but extremely risky with little chance for reward, especially if we do it like we did Apollo. Although I consider Apollo to be mankind's greatest adventure to date, it was really a publicity stunt - to show the Soviets that we could not only catch up, but win a game where we decided the rules.

IMNSHO, we, as humans, should return to the moon, with the idea of staying there and doing something worthwhile. Technologies available today would let us set up amazing observatories, both optical and radio, on the far side, shielded from earthly interference.

I don't know if sending material back and forth makes any sense, but we still have a lot of Luna to explore and figure out something useful to do with it. I like to think that we haven't lost our capacity for original thinking, so if there's anything there that's easier to send home than to make here, I'm pretty sure we can figure out how to enrich ourselves with it.

<small>[ 09-22-2003, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: barfle ]</small>
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby Shapley » Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:54 pm

We can't put an end to death. We're all going to go through it at some point. The best we can hope for is to die in some noble endeavor. Exploration and the improvement of life are, IMHO, the most noble of endeavors.

Eventually, the desire to mine the resources of the Moon, Mars, and beyond, will drive enterprising pioneers to settle there. It Tim Robbins leads the way, so be it. Someone will have to. :D

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Re: Apollo 13

Postby BenODen » Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:08 pm

Ohoh! Yes. Mars is not the next place for manned exploration. The moon definitely was a victim of a "drive by moon shot." :D We should go back and explore, see if we can use the resources in a low impact way. I certainly wouldn't want the moon changed like we've changed and are changing the earth. Hmmm, so I guess I've landed myself on the 'no terraforming' side by accident. Hmmm...

Radical idea here... We could do some wizbang stuff if someone were to come up with a way to to recapture the energy spent to get up into orbit (any orbit, really, but we're talking moon economics here...) . Then the trip up is essentially 'free' since you get the energy back, less the material you leave in orbit... Well, and the energy you spend hauling propellant up... Hmm, that's probably the humdinger..

Fine. After we get to the moon, we go to the asteroid belt where there's so much mass to bring back down that nobody will miss any of it... That would have to be lucrative if you could have the rock and the energy... So, where are the people in this? Hmmm. Maybe I agree, maybe there isn't profit in sending people to Mars or the Moon, but it's just so Coooool that we've gotta do it. I suppose it is a different sort of Frontier too, with fewer guaranteed returns, other than the spin off technologies that we enjoy. Velcro! Good stuff Mainard.

-Benito

<small>[ 09-22-2003, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Benito Of Denver ]</small>
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby Shapley » Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:19 pm

Benito,

Yes, I'd hate for us to pollute the air and water on the moon the way we have on earth! If we're not careful, we'll turn that place into an inhospitable pile of rock and dust! :D

V/R
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<small>[ 09-22-2003, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Shapley ]</small>
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:43 pm

Yup, and we'll have to be careful of the moonduck's nests.

Moonducks. Isn't there a Mason Williams song about moonducks? :D

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Re: Apollo 13

Postby barfle » Mon Sep 22, 2003 3:33 pm

Shapley - Pollute the air and water on the moon? :roll:

<small>[ 09-22-2003, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: barfle ]</small>
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby Shapley » Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:09 pm

Barfle:

No atmosphere on the moon? Don't be absurd! How does the cheese, of which we all know the moon is made, ferment? :D

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Re: Apollo 13

Postby barfle » Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:32 pm

Shap, I'm gonna blame it on the hurricane, 'cause I can't find anything else! :o

Ben o' Den, have you read Arthur C. Clarke's book Fountains of Paradise? It deals with the development of a space elevator to lift just about anything from the ground up to a geosynchronous platform. Eventually the platform grows and becomes a ring all around the earth. Materials were from asteroids.

The fiction part of the science fiction was the invention of the fibers that could withstand the tensions of being hung for the thousands of miles they needed to be in order to reach a geosynchronous point, but I've recently read about some fibers called "nanotubes" that have promise. Who knows, maybe someday a trip to space will be about the same price as a trip to Europe (for us yanks).

<small>[ 09-22-2003, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: barfle ]</small>
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby BenODen » Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:05 pm

Okok. No water, air, flora, or fauna on the moon. Quite true. So only one plank to stand on! ;)

I don't want to change how the moon looks. It would be a shame to change that. We're pretty good at earth moving these days. Removing mountains (and thus craters), making deep craters where there were none before. Even short of massive mining, if you have lots of activity and travel, roads and tracks may start becoming visible, either from orbit, effecting a tourist's impression, or from earth, changing the unchanging face of the moon. Isn't disturbing one planet to get to the stuff we need enough? Aieeee, I'm starting to sound like an environmentalist! How did that happen!? I guess I think of the moon as our last pristine wilderness in the area. If we destroy its wilderness quality, it won't return in our lifetime (even our kids or theirs or the third generation.), so care would seem to be in order.

Other major planets, I'm less worried about, since they are active, and movment will cover up at least our tire tracks, and they're less likely tourist attractions to boot. The odds of me getting to the moon in my life are MUCH greater than getting to Mars. Okay, so the odds of either are rather slim, but we can dream...

-Benito

<small>[ 09-22-2003, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Benito Of Denver ]</small>
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby Shapley » Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:08 pm

Benito,

How about if we just mine the dark side?
Of course, we'd need lots of lights! :D

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Re: Apollo 13

Postby BenODen » Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:13 pm

Yea. I love Arthur C Clarke. I'm not sure if I've read "Fountains of Paradise" or not but yea, I'm excited about nanotubes and the prospect of a space elevator. Carbon that arranged to be twice as strong as is needed for the space elevator. I read an article on Space.com that they're actually starting to talk about it seriously. (Spending (small particles of) real money! *gasp*) The first one probably will be constructed in my life time, assuming a happily long life. I haven't heard whether or not we'll have to put in energy to climb this elevator or not... (Do we get to steal it from the rotational energy of the earth?) 22,500 miles is a long way to travel using non-rocket methods, it seems...

Ah well, good stuff.

-Benito

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Re: Apollo 13

Postby BenODen » Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:14 pm

Hey cool! A mine that moves itself to the currently dark part of the moon! I'll take one of those! :D
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby OperaTenor » Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:49 pm

We'd have to stay away from Tycho, though. That monolith and all... :eek:

Of course, we wouldn't wanna mess up that guy's face, either.

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Re: Apollo 13

Postby BenODen » Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:35 pm

Man, we GOTTA do an excavation in Tycho! Can you imagine the hubub if there were actually something unusual there, even if it didn't seem to be active!? Can you say sprint to Jupiter!? Ohman, what a fantasy. I would just bet that the news themes would be Strauss! Anyone who's not read "Rendezvous with Rama" (Also Arthur C Clarke) and likes near future type Science Fiction should read it! You'll see the related far fetched fantasy to go along with that one.

Ah the dreams that will never come true because they're the details of Fiction, not the science dreams... Anyone for a high speed chase across the Atlantic chasing a worm (drive)? That one may well have happened without our knowledge! *grin* (Laughs to himself about crazy Ivans..)

-Benito

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Re: Apollo 13

Postby OperaTenor » Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:17 pm

Uh, Ben, it's "caterpillar drive", but I knew what ya meant. :D
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby BenODen » Mon Sep 22, 2003 8:04 pm

Bleah, been to long. :D :roll:
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby barfle » Tue Sep 23, 2003 7:29 am

I'm curious just how much moon-moving (as compared with earth-moving) it would take to be visible from the earth. As I understand it, the Great Wall of China is the only man-made structure visible to the naked eye from orbit. I don't know if that includes such things as open-pit mines and clear-cut forests or not. And "orbit" is about 100 miles up, compared with 250,000 miles to the moon. (rough figures all)
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby Shapley » Tue Sep 23, 2003 8:30 am

Barfle,

Geosynchronous orbit requires the satelite to be about 22,500 miles "above" (above being a relative term) the earth. Any lower orbit requires continuous acceleration to be maintained.

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Re: Apollo 13

Postby barfle » Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:19 am

Shapley, I'm aware of the approximate distances required for an object to be in orbit around the earth. Some of those four years of college Physics stuck.

So what's this about constant accelleration being required to stay in low earth orbit? Did you really mean to say that?
:confused:

I'll refrain from my lecture on orbital mechanics for a while...
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