Apollo 13

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Re: Apollo 13

Postby lliam » Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:32 am

Originally posted by Shapley:
Lliam,

I hope they beamed the crew back onto the Enterprise! :D

V/R
Shapley
Ok Shap, let's see who can make who laugh at some star trek humour here goes. :D :D :D :D :D

<small>[ 09-24-2003, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: lliam ]</small>
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby Shapley » Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:48 am

Lliam,

Here's an oldie:

[Picard] "Mr. LaForge, have you had any success with your attempts at finding a weakness in the Borg? And Mr. Data, have you been able to access their command pathways?"

[Geordi] "Yes, Captain. In fact, we found the answer by searching through our archives on late Twentieth-century computing technology."

[Geordi presses a key, and a logo appears on the computer screen.]

[Riker looks puzzled.] "What the heck is 'Microsoft'?"

[Data turns to answer.] "Allow me to explain. We will send this program, for some reason called 'Windows', through the Borg command pathways. Once inside their root command unit, it will begin consuming system resources at an unstoppable rate."

[Picard] "But the Borg have the ability to adapt. Won't they alter their processing systems to increase their storage capacity?"

[Data] "Yes, Captain. But when 'Windows' detects this, it creates a new version of itself known as an 'upgrade'. The use of resources increases exponentially with each iteration. The Borg will not be able to adapt quickly enough. Eventually all of their processing ability will be taken over and none will be available for their normal operational functions."

[Picard] "Excellent work. This is even better than that 'unsolvable geometric shape' idea."

. . . 15 Minutes Later . . .

[Data] "Captain, We have successfully installed the 'Windows' in the command unit and as expected it immediately consumed 85% of all resources. We however have not received any confirmation of the expected 'upgrade'."

[Geordi] "Our scanners have picked up an increase in Borg storage and CPU capacity to compensate, but we still have no indication of an 'upgrade' to compensate for their increase."

[Picard] "Data, scan the history banks again and determine if there is something we have missed."

[Data] "Sir, I believe there is a reason for the failure in the 'upgrade'. Apparently the Borg have circumvented that part of the plan by not sending in their registration cards.

[Riker] "Captain, we have no choice. Requesting permission to begin emergency escape sequence 3F . . ."

[Geordi, excited] "Wait, Captain, I just detected their CPU capacity has suddenly dropped to 0% !"

[Picard] "Data, what does your scanner show?"

[Data] "Apparently the Borg have found the internal 'Windows' module named 'Solitaire' and it has used up all the CPU capacity."

[Picard] "Let's wait and see how long this 'solitaire' can reduce their functionality."

. . Two Hours Pass . . .

[Riker] "Geordi, what's the status on the Borg?"

[Geordi] "As expected, the Borg are attempting to re-engineer to compensate for increased CPU and storage demands, but each time they successfully increase resources I have setup our closest deep space monitor beacon to transmit more 'windows' modules from something called the 'Microsoft fun-pack'.

[Picard] "How much time will that buy us?"

[Data] "Current Borg solution rates allow me to predicate an interest time span of 6 more hours."

[Geordi] "Captain, another vessel has entered our sector."

[Picard] "Identify."

[Data] "It appears to have markings very similar to the 'Microsoft' logo"

[Over the speakers] "THIS IS ADMIRAL BILL GATES OF THE MICROSOFT FLAGSHIP MONOPOLY. WE HAVE POSITIVE CONFIRMATION OF UNREGISTERED SOFTWARE IN THIS SECTOR. SURRENDER ALL ASSETS AND WE CAN AVOID ANY TROUBLE. YOU HAVE 10 SECONDS"

[Data] "The alien ship has just opened its forward hatches and released thousands of humanoid shaped objects."

[Picard] "Magnify forward viewer on the alien craft"

[Riker] "Good God, captain! Those are humans floating straight toward the Borg ship with no life support suits! How can they survive the tortures of deep space ?!"

[Data] "I don't believe that those are humans, sir--if you will look closer I believe you will see that they are carrying something recognized by twenty-first century man as doeskin leather briefcases and wearing Armani suits"

[Riker and Picard together horrified] "Lawyers !!"

[Geordi] "It can't be. All the Lawyers were rounded up and sent hurtling into the sun in 2017 during the Great Awakening."

[Data] "True, but apparently some must have survived."

[Riker] "They have surrounded the Borg ship and are covering it with all types of papers."

[Data] "I believe that is known in ancient vernacular as 'red tape'--it often proves fatal."

[Riker] "They're tearing the Borg to pieces !"

[Picard] "Turn off the monitors. I can't stand to watch--not even the Borg deserve that."

________

Lawyers - hey! I've successfully tied two more threads together! Tie enough of these togethr and we'll have a cable strong enough to support - an elevator!

V/R
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby OperaTenor » Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:51 am

My one Star Trek killer trivia question(perfect record so far):

In Requiem for Methuselah, how many "Raynas" were made?

From the original series. People with complete ST uniforms and blueprints for the Enterprise couldn't answer. Prize for the correct answer: A B.com hat with "Miami" carefully removed from the back.
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby lliam » Wed Sep 24, 2003 9:29 am

Your'e right Shap, it sure is an oldie. I seem to remember reading something similar on the 'Jokes' thread. Anyhow here's some more humour.
==================================================

ON THE BRIDGE.
===============

All is normal with the crew of the Enterprise using hopelessly dated machines
To fly the only ship in the federation which can turn right angles in space.
This is probably due to the special effects department, who are usually stoned
Out of their minds.
Scotty enters into the bridge.

Scotty: Captain where's our door 'Whooshing' noise?

Kirk: Don't ask me, it seems that the special effects department, recorded
Over the tape containing the noises, with the results of their Baked
Bean feast last night. I am not having me enter onto the bridge with
The sound of last night’s events to announce my arrival.

Spock: Captain, sensors are picking up a planet on our current path....
(With Interest)
Strange, it reads like the planet Quagar, which should be about 1.7
Light years away.

Kirk: Sulu, where are we?

Sulu: Quadrant 7, Sector 12 Captain.

Kirk: (In Horror)
That's in Klingon territory you IDIOT!

Sulu looks at the map, which he had been using...

Sulu: (To Himself, In A Puzzled Voice)
Is that really a six then?
(In Realisation)
Ahh its Quantrant 12, Sector 7.

Spock: Captain, it would appear that there are seven klingon Birds of Prey
In close proximity

Kirk: Where Spock where?

Spock points to the main viewer...

Sulu: Whoops!

Hurrah: Captain, they are hailing us...

Kirk: Open hailing frequencies.

The image of a Klingon comes up on the main viewer, who appears slightly
Annoyed because he was busy terrorising a local planet when the Enterprise
Disturbed him.

Klingon: Hello Captain Kirk, so we meet again...

Kirk: Have we met before?

Klingon: No, not really, I'm just improvising because you aren't supposed
To be here.

Kirk: Blame Sulu, he can't read the maps yet.

At this point the klingons understand the problem, as Sulu's navigational
Skills, (or lack of them), are legendary throughout the universe. This is
The Navigator who accidentally steered the Enterprise into a space station
Because he forgot to look at the main viewer.
They promptly decide to leave and watch from a safe distance where Sulu
Can’t harm them, about ten light years away.

Spock: Captain since we are here and we need a credible plot, I suggest
That we beam down the that planets surface in the hope of finding
Something that can be attributed to an alien. Though in actual
Fact is a member of the camera crew dressed up in a silly rug.

Kirk: Agreed!

Kirk picks out Spock, Urhura, Bones and the nameless extra. He then has a
Brainwave and picks Sulu out in the hope he's the one who gets killed!
Lliam.

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Re: Apollo 13

Postby Shapley » Wed Sep 24, 2003 9:46 am

Lliam,

Yeah, I know its an oldie. Since it was National Pick on Lawyers week, I thought I would drag it back up. :D

Hey! Look at this last week was National Pick on Lawyers week too! :D

And Hey! Look the week before... I'm starting to see at trend here! :D

Sorry, Jim! ;)

V/R
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby OperaTenor » Wed Sep 24, 2003 9:54 am

That may have been an oldie, but I hadn't heard it before. LOL! You better be careful, you'll get Jm more defensive than he already is re lawyers! :p
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby lliam » Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:29 am

And last but not least.

ON THE PLANET'S SURFACE
-------------------------

It is a barren and deserted place, which looks strangely like the set of
'Lost in space'. This is due to the fact that the set designers are too busy
Getting high on drugs, (hey, this is the sixties!).

Spock: Tricorder readings show that the planet atmosphere is able to
Sustain life, as we know it.

Kirk: Spock, this may sound silly but why the hell do we check the planets
Atmosphere AFTER we beam down.

Spock: Because I have dirty pictures on this Tricorder I like to look at.

Kirk decides to drop the subject as he knows he is going to be sorry if he
Continues this line of questioning.
Suddenly from behind there is a noise,
All the crew turn to see, and find the girl that is going to end up in the
Episode’s love scene with Kirk.

The girls is as usual dressed in clothes
That attempt to get away from sixties style, but fail miserably.

She runs Towards Kirk and falls into his arms...

Spock: (Under His Breath)
Why do they always go for him?

Kirk looks straight into her eye and suddenly they embrace in a passionate
Kiss.

Spock: Twenty second, losing your touch Captain.

Extra: ARRRRRRGGGGG!

Kirk: Oh well, not Sulu this time, maybe next then...

Urhura: ARRRRGGGG! Captain behind you...

Kirk: Bones what is it?

Bones: Dam it Jim, I'm a Doctor not a monster spotter!

Spock: It appears to be a member of the camera crew in a silly rug,
WHOOPS, no its not, its life Jim, but not as we know it!

Kirk: Set phasers to kill.

Everyone fiddles with a piece of plastic that was attached to their belts.

Kirk: FIRE...

As per usual the phasers do no damage what’s or ever to the monster, who just
Stands there with its arms outstretched in a pathetic attempt to look menacing.

Spock: Captain, I suggest that the only logical course of action left for
Us now is to RUN...

Kirk: No, we must stay and try to make contact with this being.

Being: I am going to kill you all; you have invaded my planet....

Kirk: Umm, Speaks English....
On second thoughts, with a slight change in Spock's idea,
RUN LIKE HELL!!!

All the members of the landing party, (except the dead nameless extra), are
All crouched behind a rock.

Kirk: (Into The Communicator)
Scotty beam us up now....

Scotty: I canna do that captain the Dlithium crystal canna take any more.

Kirk: Do you want your contract to expire?

Spock: Captain I could make a simple computer out of these bits of rock
Here and the Tricorder that Uhurha is carrying.

Sulu: No you can't.

Spock: You’re right, but remember who crashed into that space station. Anyway
We have to make the viewer believe that I am a higher life form than
You lot.
(To Himself)
Then why does he always get the girl?

Then without a word, the remaining members of the landing party are beamed back
Onto the Enterprise.

BACK ON THE BRIDGE
--------------------

All is normal again, with the door 'whooshing' box back under Kirk's chair,
Bones standing behind Kirk's chair ready for the joke at the end.

Spock is Also ready, peering into the square box on is desk, which contains more dirty
Pictures.

Kirk: Well, Bones what happens now?

Bones: Damit Jim, I'm a Doctor not a fortuneteller.

Kirk throws back his head in a bad attempt to make it look like he found that
Statement funny.


ROLL END CREDITS
Lliam.

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Re: Apollo 13

Postby Shapley » Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:46 am

OT,

RE:[You are sooooo crackin' me up. Definitely nuclear humor applied to other areas.]

I didn't even get into the BFPL curve for the cable. :eek:

V/R

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Re: Apollo 13

Postby OperaTenor » Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:38 pm

OMG!!! Flashback! Next thing you know we'll be discussing net positive suction head! :eek: Oh...wait....I just did, didn't I? :eek:

ROTFLMAO!!!
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby barfle » Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:54 pm

Shapley, if you were in my physics class, you would fail.

Although you have points, you don't have a case.

True, the mass of a building has gravitational attraction to all other items of mass in the universe. However, we're certainly not talking about anything approaching the mass of, for example, the earth. You and I exert gravitational attraction to each other, too, but it's not worth mentioning until you start getting down to very precise measurements, well beyond that which modern instruments can detect.

You say the building must be incredibly massive. Do you think for a moment I was talking about just a bigger WTC tower? Especially if we had something like an asteroid in geosynchronous orbit to hang it from?

Is the thing buildable at this point? I doubt it, too, but that doesn't mean the physics says "it's impossible." And if you don't believe that building technologies have changed since the days of the Babylonians, come out of your cave and look around.

So if you want to pick at .0000001% trivialities, I'll leave you to your delusions about reality and consider this issue closed.
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby Shapley » Wed Sep 24, 2003 3:00 pm

Barfle,

I never said it was impossible. I merely said that the forces at the ends of the cable will be massive.

If our cable has a diameter of just 12", and a density of 150 lbs./cu. ft. (pretty light stuff), then the mass of a cable 22,500 miles long will be just about 7,000,000 tons. That's not an insignificant number. The effect of gravity will vary along the length of the cable, so its weight will be less, but the weight will only be zero at the very end of the cable.

Also, only the end of the cable will be travelling at sufficient velocity match the rate of fall due to gravity. The remainder of the cable will travel at slower velocities, varying again with elevation. The bottom of the cable will travel at the same velocity as the earth.

Since the cable is attached to itself over its entire length, the portions of it (99.9%) will be exerting stress on the orbital part. Our orbiting platform will need to overcome this stress, and our cable will have to be anchored sufficiently to tranfer that stress from cable to platform.

V/R
Shapley

<small>[ 09-24-2003, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Shapley ]</small>
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby Shapley » Wed Sep 24, 2003 3:17 pm

Barfle,

RE: [True, the mass of a building has gravitational attraction to all other items of mass in the universe. However, we're certainly not talking about anything approaching the mass of, for example, the earth. You and I exert gravitational attraction to each other, too, but it's not worth mentioning until you start getting down to very precise measurements, well beyond that which modern instruments can detect.]

Those attractive forces are only insignificant here on earth. 22,500 miles away, they become more of a factor. If the two pool balls you mentioned earlier were in a "weightless" environment, they would pull towards each other and eventually collide, whether connected by a string or not. :D

V/R
Shapley

<small>[ 09-24-2003, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Shapley ]</small>
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby Shapley » Thu Sep 25, 2003 8:13 am

Barfle:

I looked at the article on the space elevator for which Lliam was kind enough to provide a link. I noted a few items of interest:

The article suggests the use of carbon fiber tubing "thin as newspaper and about 36" in diameter". I will estimate it at 38 3/16" diameter, since the 10' circumfence makes my calculations easy. The article also says it has "about 1/5 the weight of steel". I can only assume the article is written by a journalist, rather than a physicist, since mass, not weight, is the issue of concern. weight is a relative measurement, and will vary widely in our application. In fact, it would be ideal if our total weight were zero once the cable is in place. I have no idea how thick a newspaper is, but I will use 1/64" for the thickness, which will give our cable a density of about 100 lbs./cu. ft., or about 1.3 lbs./ft of cable.

The article also says that the platform will be beyond geosynchronous orbit. This makes sense, since the desire is to use the platform as a launching pad for interplanetary craft. No information is given on the size or design of the platform, however. Since the platform is a spacecraft launching station, sort of a deep space aircraft carrier, I will use an aircraft carrier as the design basis for the platform. (This lets me tie yet another thread into my rope.) The Navy website lists the displacement for an aircraft carrier as 97,000 tons. Since an aircraft carrier (other than this one) ideally spends its career at sea-level, then we can figure the displacement, weight, and mass as equal figures, so our platform has a mass of 97,000 Tons.

The article says the cable extends 63,000 miles to the platform. This is well beyond our 22,500 mile figure for geosynchronous orbit. Of course, this makes sense. since the desire is not to launch our aircraft into orbit, but to launch them out of orbit. The mass of our cable will therefore be about 216,000 Tons. Again, not an insignificant figure, but less than my 7,000,000 ton rope. It is also more than our aircraft carrier, which could be a problem. However, since we are beyond geosynchronous orbit, while maintaining our velocity in synch with the earths orbit, the linear velocity is greater than our rate of descent, and our aircraft carrier would be moving away from the earth (falling up?). However, it is anchored to the earth by the cable, since the article says that the cable will be anchored to the earth by an off-shore platform. Aircraft launched from our carrier, however, if they are launched "into the wind" (wind?) from the deck of our carrier (towards the direction of rotation) will similarly "fall up" and away from the earth, which is very much our desire.

Having the platform off-shore is a political requirement, I believe, rather than a physical one. The idea is to use the elevator and the aircraft carrier as an international launching platform, and being offshore keeps if free from governmental interference in that noble objective. It also gives a level of control over access to it, and keeps kids from climbing on it, thinking its a giant beanstalk or something. The article does say that it is anchored, so they are in agreement with me on that issue. There is even a drawing of the platform, and it looks quite massive. But then again, it has to handle the elevator car, and 10,000 ton payloads coming and going (10,000 tons is their figure). It also has to handle wind and wave and the other issues an offsore platform deals with. Since the illustration seems to show it off the coast of Central America, I assume it has seismic considerations as well, but those are easily dealt with.

Since our cable is anchored to the earth and extends 63,000 miles, nearly two thirds of it is exerting an outward stress on the cable, as it falls away from the earth, while the remaining third is pulled towards earth by gravity. Since no other explanation is given for the 63,000 mile figure, I assume (there's that dreaded word!) that they agree with me that the mass of the aircraft carrier and the mass of the cable beyond 22,500 miles has to be sufficient to overcome the gravitational effect on the remainder of the cable. People more educated than me have most likely done the math and decided that 63,000 miles is sufficient to achieve this effect. The desire will be to have an average end reaction of zero. However, that will be an average, and our cable end treatment must deal with the peak postive and negative stresses encountered by our cable. I feel vindicated already.

Our cable, like eveything else in the universe, will have a modulus of elasticity, and thus will undergo strain as various stresses are applied to it. This includes the dynamic load of the elevator as it moves at varying velocities along the cable, feeling the varying effects of wind and gravity as it climbs. Those calculations are pretty rudimentary, however, and I'm sure Benito could figure them out during coffee break on a Monday. We also have to deal with gravtional pull from various sources beyond the earth, including that great lump of cheese we call the moon. Since the moon can lift the oceans, and the arcraft carriers that ride on it, by as much as twenty feet or more while they sit on the surface of the earth, I'm sure its effects on our aircraft carrier 63,000 miles above the rest of them will be somewhat greater. Of course, it also pulls it towards the earth when it is on the opposing side of the earth, sort of an interplanetary low tide.

I read an article a while back that states that geosynchronous orbitals are not spherical, but vary widely as the earth rotates. This is due to planetary influences, and the earths tendency to "wobble" on its axis, among other things. However, our aircraft carrier is anchored to the planet by a more or less fixed length of cable. This means that our orbital will be held to spherical shape within the elasticity limits of the cable. This will induce stresses within the cable as well, and they have to be dealt with by our end treatment. Basically, our aircraft carrier is a giant yo-yo, with our cable as a string. As you know, a yo-yo doesn't fly off into space because it is anchored to our finger. Let go of the string, and the yo-yo no loner yoes, it goes.

There are other factors, such as radiation embrittlement of the cable fibres, temperature considerations, etc. But none of these make the endeavor impossible, just more challenging. Have fun, Benito!

Unless you have another explanation for the figure of 63,000 miles, I rest my defense. My fate is in the hands of the jury (oops, lawyer thread again). I'm sorry I failed your class, professor. Hopefully my other subjects will keep by GPA, like my aircraft carrier, above sea level.

V/R
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby barfle » Thu Sep 25, 2003 10:28 am

Shapley,

First, Lliam provided a link to the Galileo mission. Benito of Denver provided a link to the space elevator. If Lliam provided a link to the space elevator, I couldn't find it in this thread.

Second, your calculations are based on missing an important item in the article. You declared the tubing to be "as thin as a newspaper and about 36" in diameter." The article you cite declares it to be "A ribbon 62,000 miles (100,000 kilometers) long made of carbon nanotubes would be some three feet (less than a meter) wide and thinner than a newspaper page." You go on to round off your measurements to a 10 foot circumference, from which I infer you have a hollow column with very thin walls and a circumference of 10 feet. In doing so, you have introduced errors of a factor of three, based on misinterpreting the original statements.

I'm beginning to wonder if maybe Lliam didn't provide you with a link to an article about a space elevator, because I find so many discrepancies between what you say is in the article and the article I'm reading that they must be two different ones.

Benito's link says the ribbon is 62,000 miles long, you say it is 63,000 miles long. You say the drawing of the platform appears to be massive. The one I see here, using the 3' wide ribbon as a reference, looks to be roughly 100' x 300'. Bigger than a dingy, for sure, but roughly the size of an oil drillng platform.

Maybe we're not talking about the same articles after all, so I'll stop there.

You also mention that you read an article states that geosynchronous orbitals are not spherical, but vary widely as the earth rotates. Orbits are never spherical, a sphere being a three-dimensional object. They are elliptical, which may include circular, an ellipse being a two-dimensional object. I'm curious about your article, however. I realize that a satellite in geosynchronous orbit requires occasional nudging to keep it were it belongs, but if you are implying that the orbits are significantly different from circular, then they would also be significantly different from geosynchronous.

--------------------
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby piqaboo » Thu Sep 25, 2003 10:42 am

by Shapley:
and the yo-yo no longer yoes, it goes.
Nicely played words. :)

<small>[ 09-25-2003, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: piqaboo ]</small>
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby haggis » Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:14 am

Angry, strident, screedy rant coming up, skip down if you’re not in the mood for a self-righteous shout by a middle aged guy

Lliam inadvertently uttered the most damning sentence of the U.S. space program in the opening post on this thread:

” Do any of you guys remember this almost disastrous trip to the moon, and the victorious rescue.?”
Apollo 13 was the third moon mission and that was in 1970. That was 33 years ago!!

Do you realize that almost half of the U.S. population (approximately 140 million) was born AFTER Americans walked on the moon? Half!

Hell, almost a THIRD of Americans weren’t alive when Challenger blew up!

Today, we couldn’t build a Saturn 5, - the rocket that took those men to the Moon - if we had too. No plans exists anywhere of the most complex machine man has ever built ( ed. Don’t EVEN get me going on environmental rules that would probably prevent the launching of a Saturn 5 even if we had one! )

Without the type of presidential interest in space we had in the ‘60s, it probably will take between 10 – 25 years to put a Moon capable rocket on the launch pad. I’m open to debate on the top end of that time line, but stand firm on the bottom. If we decide today, 09/25/2003, to put another man on the Moon, the first launch couldn’t happen before 09/24/2013.

The state of our space program is appalling and I'm sick over the timid moves and mis-steps

Selma said:

"I grew up on science fiction and still buy a bunch of it. I thought that Heinlein was right"
Poor old Bobby would be beside himself in anger if he could see what has happen to space exploration and efforts at space exploitation. And not only in the commercial sense, Bob Heinlein started the “High Frontier Society” which essentially said that who ever has the high ground controls the world. A military capability on the Moon is the royal straight flush that trumps all the other military hands on earth.

And as far as commercial exploitation, let’s not have noble “preserve the moon in its pristine condition…etc” crap. Industrial exploitation of the moon and the asteroids are, IMHO, the only chance for salvation for humankind. Let’s take all the industrial polluting processes off earth and put them in the vacuum of space!

We are in a rapidly closing window when we (mankind) have the resources and (more or less) the will to move off this planet and into the solar system and we need to get serious about it. We should have already had a permanent presence on the Moon by now and be seriously considering how we can move asteroids to earth’s vicinity.

I also believe the “window” has truly and forever closed Europe’s chance to move the race into space. I’m not sure about Russia but I’m not optimistic. China and Japan are becoming major players in developing lift capabilities.

I have come to the conclusion that private enterprise offers the best hope for a viable manned space program and would like to see removal of some current regulations that restrict commercial operators to get into the space business.


I’ll close with another quote, this one from me and I guarantee that you can take this one to the bank and start drawing interest on it.

“There is no question man will leave the planet of his birth and expand throughout the solar system, there is a question if the mother tongue of those men will be English”


Rabid screed over, now returning you to a “kinder, gentler” discussion.
Haggis

A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby Shapley » Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:27 am

Barfle,

My apologies, I read the article yesterday, but typed my response this morning, before coming into work. I do not have internet access at home, so I had to work from my failing memory. I have a day job, so I didn't have time to type all that here at work.

The discrepancies between the article, and my discussion not withstanding, there remains the fact 2/3 of the cable is extended beyond the 22,500 mile geosynchronous sphere. The difference of 62,000 vs. 63,000 miles (less than 2%) is not that significant.

The concept of tubular vs ribbon construction was introduced into my head, I suppose, by the reference to "nanotubes". By reducing the mass by a factor of 3, our cable now weighs less than the aircraft carrier, but must still handle the stress of our aircraft carrier as it falls away from earth.

Judging my the size of the freight vessel moored alongside the platform, it would appear to be larger than you suggest. The smaller service vessels coming and going from the vessel indicate it to be a large ocean-going vessel, probably of some 600 feet or more in length. I would estimate the platform at about 500' x 800' based on that. Not massive in global terminology, but certainly more than would be needed to anchor a cable with no stress at the ends.

Spherical was a very poor choice of words on my part, but so is circular.

On the bright side, Benito's job is easier, since it should be much easier to design the end treatment for a flat cable.
:D
V/R
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby barfle » Thu Sep 25, 2003 1:26 pm

I wanted to make sure that we were discussing the same thing before I took off on what would have been as embarassing to me as I hope your post was to you. When you state something as fact, it's a good idea to state it correctly, or your overall credibility suffers as a result, particularly in light of your signature. I probably won't jump down your throat for a typo or two, but when I did the checking (in spite of my previous declaration of a closed subject), I felt I had to either correct your errors, or get mine corrected.

My take on the platform shows a two-story structure on the right end, which would make the overall size of the platform in the general vicinity of a football arena. The ships servicing the platform are distinctly indistinct - it's very easy to see the tan boats as being maybe the size of PT boats, or even rowboats - they seem quite useless as a measure of scale. But if you acknowledge the carbon ribbon as being 3 feet wide, the elevator car is then about 20 by 40, and its shadow on the platform means the platform is on the order of 100 feet wide.

Unfortunately, the article doesn't give any justification for the extra 40,000 odd miles of cable, although I'm willing to speculate on what it's for.

Perhaps it's to have enough mass swinging out there to provide tension for the cable, adequate to keep it and the cargo from falling. Clarke's idea was to corrall an asteroid to provide that mass. Of course, that would take quite a bit of doing as well - sending a manned mission to retrieve an asteroid and moving an extremely large object (your aircraft carrier would appear quite puny) farther than we've moved any large natural object by several orders of magnitude (I recall reading about an idea to move antarctic icebergs to Los Angeles to provide drinking water - they decided to get it from Northern California instead), and making sure it stopped at the right place, etc., etc.

Perhaps it's to reach a massive object that is swinging around out there (rough calculation would give it a little over 2 negative Gs - dunno why) to give the whole top end some stability, but that seems a bit beyond what I think might be necessary - but I haven't read the spec.

Perhaps it's to get whatever you put up there escape velocity for whatever journey you might conceive. Again, it seems like overkill, but all of these ideas are simply my own, so they may have no basis in reality.

What's wrong with the term "circular," particularly in the context I used it?
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby barfle » Thu Sep 25, 2003 1:41 pm

Aye, Haggis, the state of the space program is truly one of the meek.

Nobody likes to have astronauts lose their lives, but those of us who recall the early days of space exploration know full well that every one of those guys who climbed on top of a rocket realized that they had a significant chance of not coming back.

The shuttle is such a far cry from the original idea (emasculated by budgetary concerns that were clearly short sighted) that it makes me shudder. I'm surprised we've put up with it for as long as we have, but then when I think about the leadership (I use the term very loosely) of our space exploration program, maybe I'm not so surprised at what the milquetoasts have done.

Yes, I remember the "good old days" of space exploration. It was exciting, without being excessively foolhardy. Except, of course, when we got to the moon, we had no idea of what to do. Kind of like going on a trip and reading a book. :p

You and I agree that there needs to be a commercial return for space exploration. I believe that can come from permanent bases on the moon. I don't believe that Saturn type vehicles are the way to get there and realize a commercial return - 2001 - A Space Odyssey showed two ships and a space station as the way there. Perhaps one ship and an elevator would be better.

And I encourage everyone to learn their ABCs:

Asimov
Bradbury
Clarke

With a generous dose of Heinlein...
--I know what I like--
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Re: Apollo 13

Postby Shapley » Thu Sep 25, 2003 2:00 pm

I attempted a google search for the particular article that I read, but since it has been some time since I read it, I cannot recall where it was. It was not an online article that I read, so it may not be available thereabouts. I found somewhat similar articles by typing "geosynchronous orbit", but not the particular one I read.

In essence the article (to the best of my ever-feeble memory) was this. Satelites are held in orbit only by the interaction between their mass and the mass of the earth, and the velocity at which they travel (1 rotation every 24 hours). Their mass is acted upon by other objects in space, and thus their position with respect to the earth is periodically altered by these forces. Their orbitals are elliptical, but only slightly, not sufficient to justify calling them other than circular. It is their movement laterally (parallel to the earths surface) that makes circular an improper choice.

Obviouly the seasonal changes in earths angular tilt will trace an regular pattern over the course of a year, but the position as viewed from earth will not be significantly affected by this. It is the positional changes due to the gravitational forces of other bodies that are a concern (or seemed to be in the article), and that must be compensated for.

There is a similar discussion at: http://www.catholicoutlook.com/gps3.html
but I have not read this entire discussion, so I'm not sure what its position is. I found it during my Google search. I post it here because of the graphic showing the "footprint" of two satelites. It also gives lists the apogee and perigee of some geosynchronous satelites, which you will note vary only slightly.

It is the "footprint" variations that I spoke of, and that were concerned, more or less, in the article of which I spoke.

V/R
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