Veterans Day, 11 Nov 2003

[Serenity]

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.....(ba-dum-ching).

[Serenity]

A young woman teacher with obvious liberal tendencies explains to her class of small children that she is an atheist. She asks her class if they are atheists too. Not really knowing what atheism is but wanting to be like their teacher, their hands explode into the air like fleshy fireworks.

There is, however, one exception. A beautiful girl named Lucy has not gone along with the crowd. The teacher asks her why she has decided to be different.

"Because I'm not an atheist."

Then, asks the teacher, "What are you?"

"I'm a Christian."

The teacher is a little perturbed now, her face slightly red. She asks Lucy why she is a Christian.

"Well, I was brought up knowing and loving Jesus. My mom is a Christian, and my dad is a Christian, so I am a Christian."

The teacher is now angry. "That's no reason," she says loudly.

"What if your mom was a moron, and your dad was a moron. What would you be then?"

She paused, and smiled. "Then," says Lucy, "I'd be an atheist."

[EJA]

Another along those lines:

An atheist was taking a walk through the woods, admiring all that the "accident of evolution" had created. What majestic trees! What powerful rivers! What beautiful animals, he said to himself. As he was walking alongside the river, he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him. He turned to look. He saw a 7-foot grizzly charge toward him. He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his shoulder and saw that the bear was closer. He ran even faster, so scared that tears were coming to his eyes. He looked over his shoulder again, and the bear was even closer. His heart was pumping frantically and he tried to run even faster. He tripped and fell to the ground. He rolled over to pick himself up but saw the bear, right on top of him, reaching for him with his left paw and raising his right paw to strike him. At that instant the atheist cried out "Oh my God!" Time stopped. The bear froze. The forest was silent. Even the river stopped moving.

As a bright light shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky, "You deny my existence for all of these years, teach others I don't exist, and even credit creation to a cosmic accident. Do you expect me to help you out of this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer?" The atheist looked directly into the light. "It would be hypocritical of me to suddenly ask You to treat me as a Christian now, but perhaps you could make the bear a Christian?"

"Very well," said the voice.

The light went out. The river ran again. And the sounds of the forest returned. And then the bear dropped his right paw....brought both paws together....bowed his head and spoke: "Lord, for this food which I am about to receive, I am truly thankful."

[dai bread]

Originally posted by EJA:

Originally posted by dai bread:
I did like Measure 29888, Piqaboo. I might add from my own culture, Measure 29889, land rights for [b]gay whales.

I know better, but I'll still ask – is that a typo? [/b]

As you realise, EJA, it's not. But you've got me curious now. Why would it be, and what are you getting at? If you don't get the joke I'm happy to explain it. As I said, it's from my culture, and it may not travel well. I think it should travel; after all, all the bandwagons mentioned are international, even land rights (for Native Americans, in your case).

[Shapley]

There was a bumper sticker popular around here in the '80s that said: Nuke the Gay Whales.
I think it was a spin-off from a line in the old Doonesbury comic strip, back in the days when it was still funny.

It's one of those things that has humour when you glance at it, but if you analyze it, you really can't understand why.

[haggis]

Three things;

1. I’m not dead, just incapacitated. My DSL service is hosed, cooked, fried, dead, and I can’t get to the board except on a “shudder” friend’s dial-up service.

2. Y'all need to chill a bit, although I’m certainly not a fan of the PA, if the PA is as bad as some of you claim, some of you claimers would have already been arrested and sent to GITMO

3. Europe’s attitudes towards the U.S. are by no means recent. I ran across this and thought the timing was exquisite, especially in light of our President’s contentious visit to England this week.

“I have been reading a little book I picked up while in Gettysburg recently, entitled, "Memoranda During The War" by Walt Whitman. It is a compilation of his notes from about 3 years worth of visits to War hospitals in and around Washington D.C. from 1862 - 1865. Toward the end he inserts some interesting political commentary (mixed in with a variety of topics) that sounds as if it could have been written today. Here's the piece:

Attitude of Foreign Governments toward the U.S. during the War of 1861-'65 -
Looking over my scraps, I find I wrote the following during 1864, or the latter part of '63: The happening to our America, abroad as well as at home, these years, is indeed most strange. The Democratic Republic has paid her to-day the terrible and resplendent compliment of the united wish of all the nations of the world that her Union should be broken, her future cut off, and that she should be compell'd to descend to the level of kingdoms and empires ordinarily great! There is certainly not one government in Europe but is now watching the war in this country, with the ardent prayer that the united States may be effectually split, crippled, and dismember'd by it. There is not one but would help toward that dismemberment, if it dared. I say such is the ardent wish to-day of England and of France, as governments, and of all the nations of Europe, as governments. I think indeed it is to-day the real, heart-felt wish of all the nations of the world, with the single exception of Mexico--Mexico, the only one to whom we have ever really done wrong, and now the only one who prays for us and for our triumph, with genuine prayer.
Is it not indeed strange? America, made up of all, cheerfully from the beginning opening her arms to all, the result and justifier of all, of Britain, Germany, France, and Spain - all here - the accepter, the friend, hope, last resource and general house of all - she who has harm'd none, but been bounteous to so many, to millions, the mother of strangers and exiles, all nations - should now I say be paid this dread compliment of general governmental fear and hatred?.......Are weindignant? alarm'd? Do we feel wrong'd? jeopardized? No; help'd, braced, concentrated, rather.
We are all too prone to wander from ourselves, to affect Europe, and watch her frowns and smiles. We need this hot lesson of general hatred, and henceforth must never forget it. Never again will we trust the moral sense nor abstract friendliness of a single government of the world.

I hope Shos reads this and I think we (the U.S.) need to relearn the lesson of the last sentence.

I guess my question is not "Why do they hate us"? but "Why did we forget they have hated us for centuries?"

[shostakovich]

Hi Haggis. I read it all, and the last sentence several times. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to draw from it other than to take it on face value. If you'd care to amplify here or in a PM, I'm all eyes. You posted a sobering message from a man of great esteem.

I'm always upset when some posturing politician refers to ours as "the greatest country in the world", (seen only from within). The European view, then as now, should give us pause for humility.
Shos

[dai bread]

Quite. That's what we're all grizzling about right now. The U.S. has assumed the very position Europe had in that message written by Walt Whitman.

For instance, the U.S. is still giving us stick about our anti-nuclear legislation, passed in 1984 or thereabouts. I won't go into detail about it, since it's peculiar (in more ways than one!) to us, but suffice to say that because nuclear submarines were kept away, the U.S. flatly refuses to send any naval vessels here at all. We are well aware that most of the U.S. fleet is neither nuclear armed nor nuclear powered, and have repeatedly offered to host a visit from such a vessel. but will the U.S. oblige? No way! A good Socialist Trade Union attitude. One out, all out.

I've mentioned obstacles placed in the way of trade before, on other posts, so I won't repeat them here. Not free trade, note, just trade. If I continue I will start frothing at the mouth.

Sorry, Haggis, but the U.S. does not have clean hands.

And no, we don't hate the U.S. Alright, some of us do, but not many. We know too many U.S. citizens for that to happen; there's too much contact, even across a 6000 mile wide moat.

Mind you, occasionally we get people like the couple with North American accents who walked in here this afternoon, stalked straight past my Security desk & tailgated staff into the building. I got them, of course, but I know they wouldn't have dared try that at home.

[Shapley]

Dai,

Having served in the Navy, I can tell you that the Navy will never acknowledge which vessels are nuclear armed and which are not. It is thought to be necessary for the threat of nuclear retaliation to be taken seriously that this policy be maintained. The Navy cannot accept your country's offer, since to do so would violate long-standing policy regarding the security of nuclear weapons.

V/R
Shapley

<small>[ 11-19-2003, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Shapley ]</small>

[Nicole Marie]

Shapley, thanks for that post, that makes the most sense about the nukes.

I have to tend to agree with Dai and Shos on this one. As an American with family in Italy and Portugal I see both ends of the issue. What I hear from my family and read from newspapers in Europe is frustration. The attitude of my way or the highway the US has been projecting is starting to wear thin. The US has not taken part in world environmental meetings, we had a weak showing at the last Worlds AIDS summit (World AIDS Day is Dec 1 - just a reminder), there is tension with the US trade issues and today we just announced that Syria is in bed with Libya but we have not announced any evidence to back up that statement, take a quick look at the BBC web site today and look at the protests towards Bush in GB. My impression from family and friends is that the US is unwilling to hear other countries points of view and to work with them. I wouldn't say people hate the US but the frustration is growing. We are not the only country on this planet; we need to mend some bridges.

<small>[ 11-19-2003, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Nicole Marie ]</small>

[Jeff Dutton]

I'm convinced that unfortunately a large part(I'm not saying all) of the problem is due to people reacting without all the facts. I don't have the numbers, (and if anyone does, please post them), but I'll bet a cup of coffee that the U.S. plows more money than any other country, per capita, into world environmental cleanup projects, AIDS awareness projects and AIDS treatment and relief, not to mention poverty relief and general assistance around the world. I would also wager that the U.S. sends more people (volunteers) to other countries to work on these efforts than any other country. Much of this money comes from the government, but a very large amount of money, (not to mention workers) comes from private and especially faith-based organizations.

I also believe that it is our responsibility to do so.

Its too bad we don't hear much response from the world about that.

<small>[ 11-19-2003, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Jeff Dutton ]</small>

[haggis]

I regret this thread and I apologize for an action made in emotional hastiness.

I started this thread during a moment of reflection about four men - three deceased; one KIA - who brought focus and maturity into my life.

Normally, I think of each of them and what he contributed to my life without the treacley self-absorbing tearfulness 11/11 notoriously visits on old G.I.s. I have deleted the original post and put their names back into the memory bin that's marked "Significant People."

Now, my last post..........

My admiration for Shos is enormous and extends far beyond my awe of his encyclopedic knowledge of all things musical.

He and I have shared opinions and our beliefs ”off line” and away from the public forums and I have come to appreciate his frank honesty and his ability to unblinkingly evaluate his and my prejudices.

His capacity to see the other side – even if he disagrees – is rare in this rapidly evolving world of emotional and political polarities.

My admiration of his desire to seek consensus, however, is also the departure point of our differences.

Shos, in the next few days I’ll respond to you directly. Limited access to the Internet and my desire to give you my consideration will delay that response. you are more than welcome to share my reply with whoever you want.

To me personally this thread has run its course.

”It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"
Jonathan Swift

Ed. TWO edits?!?!?! TWO?!?!?! you're getting so lame late in life........"

<small>[ 11-19-2003, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: Haggis ]</small>

[shostakovich]

Thanks much for your very kind words, Haggis. Maybe you are right that the the thread has run its course. However, I'm glad you opened it. It had a noble start, and there was a lot of airing out in the hijacking.

We come to our conclusions by filtering facts through our individual experiences. When the conclusions are at odds, it's because we have lived different lives.

There was a letter in the Hartford Courant about the European view of us today. It was not favorable. I'm glad you posted the Whitman notes. It helps perspective to know the recent European view is not new. Nobody wishes the overdog well.
Shos

[Shapley]

My most humble apologies, as well. I'm guilty of following the flow of the thread with no regard to the basis of its foundation, nor of the solemnity thereof.

V/R
Shapley

[dai bread]

Jeff, you're probably right about the extent of U.S. aid. I've noticed, and said elsewhere, that the U.S. is always first out of the blocks when some country needs aid in the event of a natural disaster.

However, as a citizen of a country which has not needed aid, and therefore not received any, I still feel free to criticize. In particular, I am annoyed intensely by those who preach free trade but run crying to their congressmen when faced with competition.

Yes, I'm glad the U.S. came in on our side in WW2, but that wasn't fought for us, it was fought because of Pearl Harbour.

And you're all right about the thread too. Our similarities are far greater than our differences, so let's just get on with the music.