Can JK beat GB?

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Re: Can JK beat GB?

Postby Nicole Marie » Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:43 pm

I've stayed out of this post, for good reason. But now... Funny how everyone (Haggis) jump on socialism with out understanding the changes the party has made. I would agree in the beginning the party was pretty messed up with some of it's practices. Today's socialist party is extremely different. And the off shoots of the party (Democratic Socialists for example) have a pretty good grasp on today's world. Often people in the US are quick to jump on it without understanding it. We see one few of it and have not looked at the changes the party has gone through.

Oh and Haggis, yes the US does practice sterilization on women in this country. Parents of minor women (in some states - not all allow it) who are mentally retarded can ask the state to sterilize their female children.

<small>[ 03-09-2004, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Nicole Marie ]</small>
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Re: Can JK beat GB?

Postby haggis » Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:58 pm

"I'll make a prediction. George Bush, nor any main stream responsible Republican will call Kerry a "moron" a "Nazi," "stupid" or any other name.

Is anyone willing to bet that Kerry or some other main stream responsible Democrats won't call President Bush one of those names?"


"When Teresa Heinz-Kerry arrived, she handed me a pin that read in the center: “Asses of Evil” with “Bush”, “Cheney”, “Rumsfeld” and “Ashcroft” surrounding it."
I guess its conceivable I knew about this before I made my prediction (I didn't) but to maintain an air of fairness I'll not count this as a vindication of my prediction
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Re: Can JK beat GB?

Postby Rudy2toot » Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:05 pm

Reasons I am a “Bush hater”

1. Bush, like many intelligent people I know, assumes that the masses are too ignorant to assess reality. And, unfortunately, the masses are frequently too preoccupied with the race for the almighty dollar to make a distinction so we play into his hands. “You see what power is- holding someone else’s fear in your hand and showing it to them” Amy Tan.
When faced with a far more real threat than Sadam Hussein, Kennedy sent a spy plane over Cuba and brought back undeniable proof of the former USSR targeting our homeland with missiles. The pilot barely escaped with his hide and so the entire world had reality in front of them to assess and WWIII was narrowly averted. What would it have taken to bring back proof of Sadam Hussein’s WMD? Since we have not found any, it’s quite possible that there were none. Did Bush know there was nothing to find and play us for fools because we were in shock over 9-11? “No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear.” Edmund Burke
2. Social Engineering! Example: defining marriage to be between the union of man and woman. Granted, he has said that he will allow the courts to decide, bravo! Marriage, is both a legal term and a social term – it is important to remember that when government talks about marriage, they are talking about law not morality. What is there to fear, legally, in marriage between same sex?, loss of tax revenue? That is social engineering by the government. Or is it a moral question?, That is social engineering by the government as well. Government should be limited as much as possible to a few tasks: national defense, national infrastructure and communication, guarantee of education for all citizens.
3. Economy: You will never hear me say that the wealthy should pay more taxes than the poor proportionally. If you are a citizen partaking in this countries bounty, you owe your share, period – (I like the idea of a national sales tax). It is not the fault of a wealthy man that some suffer bad luck. However, our capitalistic system is manipulated by government to the extent that it fails to allow the most protestant work ethic to achieve a living wage. If you want facts, here is one: Bush bailed out the airlines after 9-11 and they were ALL on the brink of bankruptcy already. Do you really think there weren’t a decent lot of competitors chomping at the bit to forge a niche in the industry? I wonder where Jet Blue, American Trans Air, and multitudes of others would be today? Manipulating a capitalist economy makes it non-capitalist. The recent tax cuts WERE for the wealthy and that would be fine if the system were fair to begin with. I do not blame Bush for all instances of this but I HATE that he pretends he is innocent and Cheney is woefully guilty.
4. Education: First, education is as important to this country as its military defense. It is, in fact, a defense. It does not and should not include religious education as this takes that specific responsibility away from individual citizens – more social engineering. Bush promotes government funding of religious education through his “faith-based initiative. More social engineering. AND, his touted education record as governor of Texas is proven hogwash that I will not elaborate on unless requested.
5. Environment: There are 50,000,000 conservative sportsmen attacking the Bush administration for its grant of thousands of previously protected land to mining and timbering. Alaska, Montana, Wyoming, and New Mexico are set to be brutalized to an extent never before seen. Bush has reversed his promise to regulate emissions and forgiven big business debt for emissions fines, one of which coincidentally contributed over $200,000 to the Bush campaign. Cheney we all know about.

This is the TIP of the iceberg that sunk a Titanic.

I warned you - don't get me started - i didn't even touch the "Patriot Act" and thats what started my "Bush hating".

<small>[ 03-10-2004, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: Rudy2toot ]</small>
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Re: Can JK beat GB?

Postby haggis » Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:09 pm

[
"Oh and Haggis, yes the US does practice sterilization on women in this country. Parents of minor women (in some states - not all allow it) who are mentally retarded can ask the state to sterilize their female children.


Nicole, that's still not a national policy and if it does occur (what states? Any links?) it appears, from your statement at least, that a certain amount of consent is involved even if it is the parents.

I personally find that despicable and am shocked that you can do this anywhere in the U.S. in this day and age; of course the supreme court effectively emptied state mental homes a few years back, so maybe this does happen.

Regardless, this still doesn’t rise to the level of a national policy affecting every state of the union. I would expect that states legislatures in those states where this is allowed would be very sensitive to this issue.

My main point in bringing this up in the first place is to point out that "Nanny" states have broad and frequently self defining authority and are not subject to court reviews and/or local action.
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Re: Can JK beat GB?

Postby jmfryar » Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:45 pm

<small>[ 11-28-2005, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: jmfryar ]</small>
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Re: Can JK beat GB?

Postby Nicole Marie » Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:49 pm

Haggis, missing the point. It does not matter if it is "national policy" or not. The US justice system allows these laws to still be on the books. And a parnet, in many states, can petition the courts to have a child under go this procedure. If the courts let it happen then it may as well be "offical national policy".

The problem with these laws is the definition of the mental health of the child. Many parents are able to convince a judge that their child is "unfit". Often the parents just don't want to take care of their kid. http://www.masspsy.com/columnists/brown_9910.html

http://extras.journalnow.com/againsttheirwill/parts/five/storybody5.html

http://www.pitt.edu/~cep/42-4.html

http://www.suite101.com/discussion.cfm/101_fun_stuff/44726/latest/6

http://students.washington.edu/aed/archivemidget/sterile_950425.html
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Re: Can JK beat GB?

Postby Rudy2toot » Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:51 pm

JMFRYAR,
I would be taking advantage of you if I tried to spell out the ills of NAFTA (I don't necessarily believe NAFTA is all bad or the source of your problems), or point the finger at Bush just because I don't like him.
On the other hand (tee hee), lets not miss the opportunity to point out that Bush is attempting to grant immunity to between 9 and 12 MILLION illegal Mexican immigrants just in time for election 2005.
hmmmm
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Re: Can JK beat GB?

Postby jmfryar » Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:55 pm

<small>[ 11-28-2005, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: jmfryar ]</small>
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Re: Can JK beat GB?

Postby Nicole Marie » Tue Mar 09, 2004 4:03 pm

Welcome back JM. I posted links above, several are links to state law that is currently on the books.
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Re: Can JK beat GB?

Postby Rudy2toot » Tue Mar 09, 2004 4:08 pm

Nicole Marie,
I just wanted to say how much I'm enjoying todays program. I kicked someone out of my office just to hear Schubert's Unfinished Symphony. :)
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Re: Can JK beat GB?

Postby Nicole Marie » Tue Mar 09, 2004 4:16 pm

Thanks Rudy! Hey to expand on your Mexican immigrant statement. My hubby is ticked about this! He came to this country years ago, legally. His family applied for entry etc. What a slap in the face, now you can come over illegally and it's not problem. What a jab to all those (my husband) who followed the rules.
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Re: Can JK beat GB?

Postby Rudy2toot » Tue Mar 09, 2004 4:52 pm

Talk about coincidence!, mine did likewise. He started here on a visa from Australia and was nearly thrown out before the paperwork was completed. They didn't really want him because, I suspect, he hadn't much of a job at the time. Aren't I lucky! :D
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Re: Can JK beat GB?

Postby haggis » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:11 am

Nicole,
” Haggis, missing the point. It does not matter if it is "national policy" or not. The US justice system allows these laws to still be on the books. And a parnet, in many states, can petition the courts to have a child under go this procedure. If the courts let it happen then it may as well be "offical national policy".


Once again, I have to respectfully disagree.

Eugenics has never been the law of the land in the U.S. and as one of your links pointed out, in 1927 The Supreme Court struck down as illegal any attempt to codify the practice of eugenics within the U.S.

Thank you for all the links I read them all. I still personally think there is a vast difference. In the U.S. concerned and loving, albeit misguided, parents decided to ask the state to sterilize their mentally handicapped child. In Sweden the state decided that because a woman was poor she was unfit to have children.

From 1936 until 1976, Swedish bureaucratic men (and women? Hard to believe) decided who would be sterilized.

In Sweden the government came to you and told you your daughter would not be allowed to reproduce.
“They included women released from prison, the mentally ill, people with learning difficulties, the poor, epileptics, alcoholics and women of "mixed racial quality".

Under those governmental standards how many of us here wouldn’t have been born?

My grandmother was an epileptic so I guess you’d have to put a check mark against my name.

My wife's grandmother was in her '30s before she learned how to read AND she was poor so the mean, redheaded Yankee nurse is doubly cursed and she'd never been born.

But, again, I realize there comes a point in any discussion when reasonable people agree to disagree. I’ll respect your position that there is no moral distinction between the two sets of circumstances and the U.S. is as equally culpable as Sweden, and move on.
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Re: Can JK beat GB?

Postby jmfryar » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:20 am

<small>[ 11-28-2005, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: jmfryar ]</small>
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Re: Can JK beat GB?

Postby Rudy2toot » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:50 am

Jm,
I'm with you! Scares me to death!
I can't figure out what the correct solution is- we are way beyond being isolationist but I don't have a clue how to manage NAFTA and trade tariffs...
Funny (kinda) story; I quit a really lucrative position on 8/26/01 because I wasn't being a good parent, on the road a lot, long hours, etc...
I was going to let my husband tow the line a while - he's a pilot.
Just about 3 weeks later (9/11/01), our world was upside down. When my spouse was laid off, I scrambled to regain a position in the work-force.
Here we are, coming up on 4 years in recovery. Spouse is laid off... again, and I'm making 26,000/yr less than I did in 2001.
There is NO shame in manual labor. Look where you are posting. I'm thinkin most of these people would prefer to be musicians but have "day" jobs.
There is NO shame in raising your children and living a little less affluently than the Jones's.
Just hope we can keep food on the table!
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Re: Can JK beat GB?

Postby jmfryar » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:25 pm

<small>[ 11-28-2005, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: jmfryar ]</small>
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Re: Can JK beat GB?

Postby Nicole Marie » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:54 pm

Originally posted by jmfryar:
We're a nation obsessed with luxury - lives of leisure without paying dues. To blame politicians for the current state is not only inaccurate - it's irresponsible. They are the mouthpieces that we put into office. Just because the general population is not paying attention, doesn't mean that they are any less responsible.

How accurate are the indicators that they use? After all, according to them, spending is up, the economy is solid, but hardly a job has been created. So how much of the information that's being disseminated is really accurate?
Spending is up but personal savings/investments are at an all time low. The economy is solid if you look at it from the point of a CEO. Worker productivity is way up but that's because one person now does the job of two. And a company is not going to hire more people if their current work force is meeting the demand. The indicators are right but you have to look at the other side of the coin.

Plus we are a nation of credit. We really do not own anything, the bank does. We need to get off credit debt, we are the highest in the world.

Did any one catch Lou Dobbs last night on CNN? He had on one of the exec's from eloan.com. Eloan now gives the costomer the option of having a loan processed in India or the US. He said 70% of the applicants pick processing in India because it is processed two days quicker. (The application is started in the US and finished in India during our overnight, which is why they can get it done faster.) He also said this cost will soon be passed on to the consumer, it will be cheaper to pay for the India process. So yes JM I have to agree with you that the consumer has a big part in out-sourcing. How many of us really do buy US made? I bet it you looked around your house you'd be suprised.
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Re: Can JK beat GB?

Postby jmfryar » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:53 pm

<small>[ 11-28-2005, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: jmfryar ]</small>
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Re: Can JK beat GB?

Postby barfle » Thu Mar 11, 2004 8:20 am

I have to agree that there's not much in your house these days (besides foodstuffs) that are US made. Case in point, I am building a new computer. Not only is it US made, but it's barflebilt - nothing but the finest! But as far as I can tell, every single element was built offshore.
:roll:

A long time ago (in a city far, far away) I worked in the consumer audio business (Altec Lansing, Anaheim, CA). They had a factory where they built speakers, amplifiers, speakers, tuners, equalizers, speakers, and did I mention speakers? Not only has a once-great powerhouse of excellent audio products folded their tent and moved to Pennsylvania, but as far as I can tell, not only is their manufacturing overseas, but so is their engineering.

In a more recent incarnation, I worked for a company that manufactured their own purely electronic items. If it wasn't much more complicated than a circuit board in a box, they were capable of building it in-house. But even though they were in the video recorder business (video surveillance), they bought their recorders and cameras from off-shore manufacturers, primarily because there are no on-shore manufacturers of those products.

Of course, I'm as guilty as anyone for that trend. I want the most bang for my buck, and although I have deliberately paid more for domestic products, I haven't always been satisfied with my decision. Much of the domestically produced electronics I've recently added to my audio/video room was purchased used. It's excellent gear, but the manufacturer didn't get any of the money I spent.
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Re: Can JK beat GB?

Postby Marye » Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:09 am

I work very hard at buying Canadian... I used to just buy what suited me and what was convenient, but in the last 10 years I check labels for where it was made or grown or packaged. I actively go out of my way to buy Canadian first. Maybe I am just being naive and think I am supporting my economy ... but I try.

It is not so easy being the neighbour of a giant.
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