Israel/Palestine et al... Who's Right?

[bignaf]

that's pretty convincing.

[piqaboo]

1) how on earth can our gov't be so hypocritical? We can wander thru Iraq at will (by force of arms) in case they one day launched a terror attack on us, but Israel should hold off attacking in Lebanon, despite actual terror attacks being launched on Israel from Lebanon. I've held off making that statement as long as I could, because I dont have an answer or solution to propose. I dont think we belong in Iraq and Im not opening that discussion here. My only point is the absurd hypocracy of our official position.

2)
I have listened to npr interview with lebanese cabinet member two days running now. Hezbollah has declared victory. the Lebanese gov't has said "thanks for the ceasefire. As to our part in meeting the 'agreement', [censored] You.". After that, who could fault Israel for going back in? At this point, they'd be justified in declaring official war vs Lebanon. I'd hate to see it happen, but I'd sure understand it.

3)
someone (?analog?) said it best, somewhere on the board -
I paraphrase - How do you win over someone/thing that believes that simply continuing the fight is victory?
Hezbollah thinks they won this latest round with Israel, because Hezbollah still exists therefore its a victory, despite the homelessness of many uninvolved Lebanese civilians, the un-even losses (israel vs hzvblh) etc.

NPR had a different interview too, with a woman in a neighborhood that was in the bomb zone. She was pissed as hell that hexbollah had rocket launchers in her neighborhood, but felt powerless to do anything. It sounded like she was afraid to even ask them to move. A reign of terror = if you arent with us, you are against us = even for those Hzblh claims as constituents.

[OperaTenor]

hypocracy

I LOVE being a trend-setter!

[piqaboo]

[censored] You.".

hey, that's cool. I typed in the capitalized trademark of one Lenny Bruce, and it got auto-censored.
Neat feature.

[shostakovich]

Shos,

RE:

But they have declared "victory". Disarming is not what "victors" do.

That's interesting. I seem to recall Saddam proclaiming himself victor after the first gulf war....

I'm not sure of the implication here:
a) He declared victory, and did not disarm, giving credence to his maintaining WMD.
or
b) He deluded himself about "victory", as Hezbollah is now doing.
or
c) All of the above.

Shos

[Shapley]

C.

[Haggis@wk]

France surrenders, again

If nothing else showed the uselessness of the United Nations, this should convince everyone of it. In sixty years of being, the only accomplishment the UN has achieved has been the prolongation of every conflict it enters. Now France has reneged on it’s original pledge to provide 5,000 troops and now thinks it might be able to round up 200, maybe, by next year. I’ve made this challenge several times here and no one has yet to take me up on it. Show me one UN operation that could be considered a success.

The UN has no authority and no ability to provide solutions. Even this most recent debacle just emphasizes that. The French were going to provide troops to add to the UN forces that have already been on the Israel Lebanon border for almost 30 years.

What a waste of real estate on Turtle bay.

[bignaf]

they provide money to poor countires who provide "soldiers."

[Shapley]

Perhaps the Israelis can make up the slack for the missing French troops.

President Bush was chided by the left for 'going it alone' and not working with the United Nations on Iraq. He has worked with the other nations on every problem since, North Korea, Iran, Lebanon, Sudan, and we have seen zero results. His poll numbers have been at their lowest during the time that he has surrendered to consensus. I can't see that the U.N. is accomplishing anything.

V/R
Shapley

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

I read the article from the link (Thank you, haggis!) and it looks like the French are leery of anything that might involve actual fighting. Chirac did say that "France was prepared to assume command". So generous.

Wasn't the UN involved in the elimination of smallpox? Universal vaccination against the evil virus? That may be the only victory they've been involved in. Nothing else comes to mind.

[piqaboo]

The UN is good in that it keeps people talking, who might not be talking otherwise - I think its worth another try at somesort of worldwide organization for that reason alone. The UNs got an abysmal military track record and should bow out. ("neutral" peacekeeping is kinda a losing proposition anyway)

What the HECKFIRE do they expect to accomplish in Lebanon?
The Lebanese gov't should be doing that job, and since the gov;t supports hsbla, its a joke, all round. Waste of time, money and hot air.

[bignaf]

I think keeping people talking actually makes things worse. the UN is so desperate to have people talking, they promote the vague diplomatic language, which keeps people talking pointlessly for a while before getting back to fighting. this just contributes to continued fighting. the UN people just want to have good track record with a long list of agreements, but they sacrifice quality for quantity. without these talks for the sake of talk, maybe a real solution would have emerged.

[BigJon@Work]

Perhaps the Israelis can make up the slack for the missing French troops.

Or the U.S.

[GreatCarouser]

I read the article from the link (Thank you, haggis!) and it looks like the French are leery of anything that might involve actual fighting....''

This comes as a surprise to who? Raise hands, please...France is now more than 20% Muslim by population, they are linked financially to the Iranians and the Syrians and are the seat of much of the anti-Semitic activity in Western Europe lately.

[dai bread]

I think keeping people talking actually makes things worse.

It's not often that I agree with Winston Churchill, but his remark that "jaw jaw is better than war war" is right. As one who had been in "war war" at least 3 times, he knew what he was talking about, on that matter at least.

As for the United Nations and it "soldiers", I suggest you don't air those comments in the hearing of Fijians, or even our own troops. And wasn't it Pakistanis who baled out the U.S. marines in Mogadishu?

[Haggis@wk]

It was the Pakistanis who killed the first Marine casualty of Operation "Restore Hope." Private Domingo Arroyo. Between 19:30 – 20:30, on January 30, 1993, he was part of a patrol in Mogadishu, the capital of Somalia that was ambushed by Somali gunmen.

I was the investigator who conducted the investigation along with my Somali American translator Mahdi Hirsi. We responded that night at the request of the USMC Commander.

The patrol was ambushed by Somali gunmen and there’s a good chance the patrol was mistaken for another rival clan by the Somalis in the ambush. In the resulting firefight the Marine disengaged and pulled out of the ambush. Only when they were able to count heads did they realize that Pvt Arroyo was missing. The patrol returned to the airport and a ready team was put together to return. Mahdi and I were part of that team. When we got back to the ambush everything was quiet and we recovered the body and did door to door interviews for the rest of the night while we were sniped at. Mahdi never flinched and all the Marines thought he was the bravest man they had ever seen, only later did I learn that Mahdi thought the bullets zinging overhead were bugs.

Pvt. Arroyo’s wound was a single shot to the head that had pierced his kevlar helmet on both sides and he was killed instantly.

None of the weapons used by the Somalis were of a caliber that could have caused a through and through hole in kevlar. (we caught and interviewed several over the next two years)

During the fight one Marine recalls hearing what he thought was a crew served weapon. While Somalis mounted crew served weapons on vehicle (“technicals”) they were normally of a very heavy caliber. Ofter former Soviet anti-aircraft guns, 12.7mm (equivelant of a .50 caliber), 23mm, 37mm, etc. The hole in the helmet was caused by a smaller caliber most likely a .30 cal. Light machine gun which is what the Pakistanis had on a jeep up the street from the ambush. The feeling was the Pakis thought they were under fire and indiscriminately started shooting down the alleyway. The Pakis wouldn’t allow me to interview any of the men on the jeep nor inspect the weapon until several days later.

I submitte my report to the USMC and it was incorporated into their report although I never saw or read it. I recall that someone said the cause of the fatality was undetermined.

The Pakis caused lots of problems in Somalia and were engaged in some shady deals, one of which resulted in 10-15 of them getting killed which changed our operation from relief to a man-hunt for Aideed.

[Haggis@wk]

News Flash! Peace Keepers aren’t suppose to, well, “keep the peace”

”UNITED NATIONS - Secretary-General Kofi Annan appealed to U.N. member states to provide desperately needed U.N. peacekeeping troops for Lebanon and assured them the U.N. force would not “wage war” on Israel, Lebanon, or Hezbollah militants.

“It is not expected to achieve by force what must be realized through negotiation and an internal Lebanese consensus,” Annan said in a report to the U.N. Security Council on implementation of the Aug. 11 resolution calling for an end to the Israeli-Hezbollah conflict.

A key concern of many countries is whether the U.N. force will be called on to disarm Hezbollah fighters, as called for in a September 2004 U.N. resolution. They want to study the rules of engagement and concept of operations for the force, which were distributed Friday, before making a decision on troops.”

[dai bread]

Thanks for the info, Haggis. I really do like reports from people who were there at the time, whatever the event.

Have you ever worked with NZ troops? Or Fijians?

[bignaf]

I think keeping people talking actually makes things worse.

It's not often that I agree with Winston Churchill, but his remark that "jaw jaw is better than war war" is right. As one who had been in "war war" at least 3 times, he knew what he was talking about, on that matter at least.

did you read the rest of my post, explaining that statement? it should render your comment irrelevant.

[bignaf]

I don't know about the Fiji/NZ soldiers, but the ones currently in Lebanon as Unifil are mostly Gahnian. their information about the recent war came from TV, by their own addmision. the abduction of the Israeli soldiers happened right near a UN base.
there was a good article by a jpost reporter who interviewed thw Ghanian soldiers, it's now archived, and costs money. they had no clue about anything, they said something to the effect: we sit here and get our food by truck once a week.