Israel/Palestine et al... Who's Right?

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Re: Israel/Palestine et al... Who's Right?

Postby lliam » Sun Jun 20, 2004 9:12 am

The First Crusade played a very important part in Medieval England. The First Crusade was an attempt to re-capture Jerusalem. After the capture of Jerusalem by the Muslims in 1076, any Christian who wanted to pay a pilgrimage to the city faced a very hard time. Muslim soldiers made life very difficult for the Christians and trying to get to Jerusalem was filled with danger for a Christian. This greatly angered all Christians.

One Christian - called Alexius I of Constantinople - feared that his country might also fall to the Muslims as it was very close to the territory captured by the Muslims. Constantinople is in modern day Turkey. Alexius called on the pope - Urban II - to give him help.

In 1095, Urban spoke to a great crown at Clermont in France. He called for a war against the Muslims so that Jerusalem was regained for the Christian faith. In his speech he said:

"Christians, hasten to help your brothers in the East, for they are being attacked. Arm for the rescue of Jerusalem under your captain Christ. Wear his cross as your badge. If you are killed your sins will be pardoned."

Those who volunteered to go to fight the Muslims cut out red crosses and sewed them on their tunics. The French word "croix" means cross and the word changed to "croisades" or crusades. The fight against the Muslims became a Holy War.

Many people did volunteer to fight on the First Crusade.

There were true Christians who wanted to reclaim Jerusalem for their belief and get the Muslims out of the city.
There were those who knew they had committed sin and that by going on the Crusade they might be forgiven by God. They had also been told by the pope that if they were killed, they would automatically go to heaven as they were fighting for God.
There were those who thought that they might get rich by taking the wealth that they thought existed in Jerusalem.
Any crusader could claim to be going on a pilgrimage for God - pilgrims did not have to pay tax and they were protected by the Church.

The First Crusade had a very difficult journey getting to the Middle East. They could not use the Mediterranean Sea as the Crusaders did not control the ports on the coast of the Middle East. Therefore, they had to cross land. They travelled from France through Italy, then Eastern Europe and then through what is now Turkey. They covered hundreds of miles, through scorching heat and also deep snow in the mountain passes. The Crusaders ran out of fresh water and according to a survivor of the First Crusade who wrote about his experiences after his return, some were reduced to drinking their own urine, drinking animal blood or water that had been in sewage. Food was bought from local people but at very expensive prices. Odo of Deuil claims that these men who were fighting for God were reduced to pillaging and plunder in order to get food.

Disease was common especially as men were weakened by the journey and drinking dirty water. Dysentery was common. Heat stroke also weakened many Crusaders. Disease and fatigue affected rich and poor alike. One of the Crusades leaders - Frederick of Barbarossa - was so weak that when he tried to swim across a river, he drowned.

By 1097, nearly 10,000 people had gathered at Constantinople ready for the journey to the Holy Land. There was no one person in charge of the First Crusade. Urban II had made Bishop Adbenar the leader but he preferred to let others do the work and make decisions. They were four separate proper Crusader armies in the First Crusade but also a large number of smaller armies. However, there was no proper command structure and with the problems of communications at that time, it is possible that a command structure with one person in charge was an impossibility.

The first target of the Crusaders was the important fortress city of Nicea. This city was taken by the Crusaders without too much trouble as the man in charge of it was away fighting !!

The next target for the Crusaders was Antioch - a strongly protected Turkish city. It took a seven month siege before the city fell. The next target was Jerusalem.

The attack and capture of Jerusalem started in the summer of 1099. Jerusalem was well defended with high walls around it. The first attacks on the city were not successful as the Crusaders were short of materials for building siege machines. Once logs had arrived, two siege machines were built.

A monk called Fulcher was on the First Crusade. He wrote about the attack on the Holy City and he can be treated as an eye-witness as to what took place.

Fulcher claimed that once the Crusaders had managed to get over the walls of Jerusalem, the Muslim defenders there ran away. Fulcher claimed that the Crusaders cut down anybody they could and that the streets of Jerusalem were ankle deep in blood. The rest of the Crusaders got into the city when the gates were opened. The slaughter continued and the Crusaders "killed whoever they wished". Those Muslims who had their lives spared, had to go round and collect the bodies before dumping them outside of the city because they stank so much. The Muslims claimed afterwards that 70,000 people were killed and that the Crusaders took whatever treasure they could from the Dome of the Rock.

After the success of the Crusaders, the Kingdom of Jerusalem was created and its first king was Godfrey of Bouillon who was elected by other crusaders. He died in 1100 and was succeeded by his brother Baldwin of Boulogne.

The capture of Jerusalem did not end the Crusades as the Crusaders wanted to get rid of the Muslims from the whole region and not just Jerusalem. This desire lead to the other crusades.

<small>[ 06-20-2004, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: lliam ]</small>
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Re: Israel/Palestine et al... Who's Right?

Postby Rudy2toot » Sun Jun 20, 2004 9:12 am

Good morning lliam, or I guess its afternoon for you.
I'm not so sure that the differences of today are much different than they have ever been.
I really like that "None of us has the moral standing to look down on another..."
When you say "we should stop it", are you saying "we" as in lovers of equality should stop "it" as in those that suppress/oppress others, or did you mean "we" as in lovers of equality should stop behaving badly?
Seriously, I wasn't sure what you meant.
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Re: Israel/Palestine et al... Who's Right?

Postby lliam » Sun Jun 20, 2004 9:34 am

Hi Rudy2toot, "we" is just a figure of speech, it doesn't apply to anyone or certain individiuals in particular.

Yes, it's afternoon here in the UK 15.35 as I type this reply.
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Re: Israel/Palestine et al... Who's Right?

Postby lliam » Sun Jun 20, 2004 9:35 am

Saladin and Richard the Lionheart are two names that tend to dominate the Crusades. Both have gone down in medieval history as great military leaders though their impact was limited to the Third Crusade.
Saladin was a great Muslim leader. His real name was Salah al-Din Yusuf. He united and led the Muslim world and in 1187, he recaptured Jerusalem for the Muslims after defeating the King of Jerusalem at the Battle of Hattin near the Lake of Galilee. When his soldiers entered the city of Jerusalem, they were not allowed to kill civilians, rob people or damage the city. The more successful Saladin was, the more the Muslims saw him as being their natural leader.
The Christians of Western Europe were stunned by the success of Saladin. The pope, Gregory VIII, ordered another crusade immediately to regain the Holy City for the Christians. This was the start of the Third Crusade. It was lead by Richard I (Richard the Lionheart), Emperor Frederick Barbarossa of Germany and King Philip II of France. These were possibly the three most important men in Western Europe - such was the importance of this crusade. It was to last from 1189 to 1192.
Frederick was drowned on his march across Europe. He was 70 years of age and his death shocked his army and only a small part of it continued to the Middle East.
Richard, Philip and their men travelled by boat. They stopped their journey in modern day Sicily. In March 1191, Philip then sailed to the port of Acre, which was controlled by the Muslims. This was an important port to capture for the Christians as it would allow them to easily land their ships and it was also the nearest big port to Jerusalem. Acre was besieged. Richard’s joined Philip’s men.
He had captured Cyprus first before moving on to Acre. The port could not cope against such a force and in July 1191, it fell to the Christians. However, the siege had had its impact on Philip - he was exhausted and left for France. Richard was left by himself. While in control of Acre, the Christians massacred 2000 Muslim soldiers who they had captured. Saladin had agreed to pay a ransom for them but somehow there was a breakdown in the process of payment and Richard ordered their execution.
Richard was determined to get to Jerusalem and he was prepared to take on Saladin. The march south to Jerusalem was very difficult. The Crusaders kept as near to the coast as possible to allow ships to supply them. It was also slightly cooler with a coastal breeze. Regardless of this, the Christians suffered badly from the heat and lack of fresh water. At night when the Crusaders tried to rest, tarantulas plagued them. Their bites were poisonous and very painful.
Both sides fought at the Battle of Arsur in September 1191. Richard won but he delayed his attack on Jerusalem, as he knew that his army needed to rest. He spent the winter of 1191 to 1192 in Jaffa where his army regained its strength. Richard marched on Jerusalem in June 1192.
However, by now even Richard the Lionheart was suffering. He had a fever and appealed to his enemy Saladin to send him fresh water and fresh fruit. Saladin did just this - sending frozen snow to the Crusaders to be used as water and fresh fruit. Why would Saladin do this?
There are two reasons. First, Saladin was a strict Muslim. One of the main beliefs of Islam (the name of the belief of Muslims) is that they should help those in need. Secondly, Saladin could send his men into Richard's camp with the supplies and spy on what he had in terms of soldiers, equipment etc.
What they found was that Richard only had 2,000 fit soldiers and 50 fit knights to use in battle. With such a small force, Richard could not hope to take Jerusalem even though he got near enough to see the Holy City. Richard organised a truce with Saladin - pilgrims from the west would once again be allowed to visit Jerusalem without being troubled by the Muslims. Neither Richard nor Saladin particularly liked the truce but both sides were worn out and in October 1192, Richard sailed for Western Europe never to return to the Holy Land.
However, for Richard the adventure was not over. On his journey back to England, his ship got wrecked in a storm. He found that he had to travel through Austria. A sworn enemy of Richard - Duke Leopold of Austria, owned this country. Leopold had originally been a leading member of the Third Crusade but Richard who did nothing to stop his men making fun out of Leopold had ridiculed him. They called him "the sponge" because he drank so much and was drunk too often!! Leopold had lost a lot of prestige and now he had a chance to avenge himself. Richard was betrayed to Leopold who held him captive for two years until a ransom was paid for him. Richard arrived home in 1194.
His people knew Richard as the “Lionheart”. Even the Muslims praised him. The Muslim writer Baha wrote about Richard while the Third Crusade was going on:
"...A very powerful man of great courage...a king of wisdom, courage and energy...brave and clever."
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Re: Israel/Palestine et al... Who's Right?

Postby lliam » Sun Jun 20, 2004 9:43 am

Medieval England was to gain a great deal from the Crusades. Many items we now take for granted came from the time of the Crusades.
As happens in many wars, the Crusaders plundered without mercy and took what they wanted from the people of what we now call the Middle East. The British Museum still houses treasures brought back from the Crusades in among its Byzantine collection.
However, new ideas and household goods were also brought back as were new foodstuffs:
Food products Rice, coffee, sherbet, dates, apricots, lemons, sugar, spices such as ginger, melons, rhubarb and dates.
Household goods Mirrors, carpets, cotton cloth for clothing, ships compasses, writing paper, wheelbarrows, mattresses and shawls.
New ideas Chess, Arabic figures 0 to 9, pain killing drugs, algebra, irrigation, chemistry, the colour scarlet, water wheels and water clocks
Though the Crusades lasted for many years, the actual amount of fighting was reasonably small. Of the 174 years of the Crusades, only 24 involved fighting and not all of the 24 years were spent fighting. Therefore, there was much to be made by trading with each other. The above list gives an indication of how Western Europe benefited. The Muslim obtained from the west linen and woollen cloth. There were years when trade between the two sides was very good.
The Crusades had a major impact on the building of castles. Many large castles were built in Wales (such as Beaumaris, Conway and and Caernarfon) by Edward I. He had been on a crusade and it is probable that he learned about castle improvements as a result of his experiences.
The Muslims built in a scientific manner using the area a castle was built in for its maximum potential.
Historians such as E Wright believe that their approach influenced Edward and that is why the Welsh castles associated with Edward I were so well built. Some historians such as C Cairns believe that our castle building would have improved regardless of the influence of the Muslims simply as our knowledge about castle building increased. He is far from convinced as to their importance regarding castle development.
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Re: Israel/Palestine et al... Who's Right?

Postby The Great Carouser » Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:07 pm

Here's an interesting article on the (probably) specious Children's Crusade(s) of the early Thirteenth Century:

Children's Crusade

Happy Father's Day btw
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Re: Israel/Palestine et al... Who's Right?

Postby lliam » Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:20 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Great Carouser:
[QB] Here's an interesting article on the (probably) specious Children's Crusade(s) of the early Thirteenth Century:

Children's Crusade


Nice little fictions saga G.C, thanks for the Fathers day greeting. I had a load of cards, two huge blocks of Cadbury's Bournville Dark Chocolate and a large bottle of special beer. I haven't tried the beer yet. ;)
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Re: Israel/Palestine et al... Who's Right?

Postby lliam » Tue Jun 22, 2004 12:18 pm

I forgot to mention the two bottles of Glennfiddich (Hic) malt whisky.
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Re: Israel/Palestine et al... Who's Right?

Postby Shapley » Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:25 pm

Here are some points of interest from Thomas Madden's Concise History of the Crusades:

Islam was born in war and grew the same way. From the time of Mohammed, the means of Muslim expansion was always the sword.

With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Mohammed's death. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt -- once the most heavily Christian areas in the world -- quickly succumbed.

By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul.

The Byzantine Empire was reduced to little more than Greece. In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East.

The end of the medieval Crusades did not bring an end to Muslim jihad -- Islamic states like Mamluk Egypt continued to expand in size and power, and the Ottoman Turks built the largest and most awesome state in Muslim history.

Under Suleiman the Magnificent the Turks came within a hair's breadth of capturing Vienna, which would have left all of Germany at their mercy. At that point Crusades were no longer waged to rescue Jerusalem, but Europe itself.

It is often asserted that Crusaders were merely lacklands and ne'er-do-wells who took advantage of an opportunity to rob and pillage in a faraway land. Recent scholarship has demolished that contrivance. The truth is that the Crusades were notoriously bad for plunder. A few people got rich, but the vast majority returned with nothing.

It is often assumed that the central goal of the Crusades was forced conversion of the Muslim world. Nothing could be further from the truth. Muslims who lived in Crusader-won territories were generally allowed to retain their property and livelihood, and always their religion.

It was not until the 13th century that the Franciscans began conversion efforts among Muslims. But these were mostly unsuccessful and finally abandoned. In any case, such efforts were by peaceful persuasion, not the threat of violence.

Jews perished during the Crusades, but the purpose of the Crusades was not to kill Jews. Quite the contrary: Popes, bishops, and preachers made it clear that the Jews of Europe were to be left unmolested.

The Ottoman Turks not only conquered their fellow Muslims, thus further unifying Islam, but also continued to press westward, capturing Constantinople and plunging deep into Europe itself. By the 15th century, the Crusades were no longer errands of mercy for a distant people but desperate attempts of one of the last remnants of Christendom to survive. Europeans began to ponder the real possibility that Islam would finally achieve its aim of conquering the entire Christian world.

In 1529, Suleiman the Magnificent laid siege to Vienna. If not for a run of freak rainstorms that delayed his progress and forced him to leave behind much of his artillery, it is virtually certain that the Turks would have taken the city.

Whether we admire the Crusaders or not, it is a fact that the world we know today would not exist without their efforts. Without the Crusades, Christianity might well have followed Zoroastrianism, another of Islam's rivals, into extinction.


V/R
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Re: Israel/Palestine et al... Who's Right?

Postby haggis » Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:53 pm

"a report compiled by the (Jewish) agency had found 30,000 out of France's 575,000-strong Jewish community were considering immigrating to Israel."


When more than 5% of a country's religious/ethnic group wants or plans to emigrate from their birth home because they are afraid the country cannot protect them from abuse or harrassment, that's (in my opinion) enormous.

I don't know what "considering" means in this context, but still, as I've mentioned before, rising anti-Semitism has always, in Europe anyway, been the "canary in the coal mine" that precedes other ethnic violence.

I think people in Europe should be concerned, and I think we, as Americans, should pay close attention.

If, in 1935, someone said to the European Jews, "Get out before the common European Government (Germany) kills you!!" that anyone would have believed where the world would be in 1945?

Living in "modern times" does not immunize the world from future horrors.
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Re: Israel/Palestine et al... Who's Right?

Postby shostakovich » Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:11 pm

I don't question Shap's facts, but I infer from the post that the Muslims were in greater control than my own sense of history allows. In 1500 the Moors (Muslims) were out of Spain, a devout Christian bastion. The inquisition was still going on. Russia (I think still totally contained within Europe) was solidly Christian. There were pagans in the boonies, but Eastern Christianity had been imposed in 988. Based on the amount of Christian art in 1500 Europe, they didn't know from Muslims. Muslim art forbade "graven images". I think they missed a good bet. After Luther posted his theses (1517) the religious history of Europe is primarily a battle between Protestant and Catholic. Suleiman notwithstanding, the Europeans were not too concerned about Islam.
My 2 cents.
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Re: Israel/Palestine et al... Who's Right?

Postby Shapley » Wed Jun 23, 2004 12:33 pm

Here's a link to the Catholic Encyclopaedia's entry on the crusades:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04543c.htm#VII

I don't pretend to claim they are unbiased, they simply offer a different viewpoint.

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Postby BigJon@Work » Fri May 19, 2006 12:56 pm

Here is an interesting article I came across in my studies. I don't agree with some of his conclusions, but I like how he attempts to strip the emotions from the arguments and present fact-based theories.
http://philip.greenspun.com/politics/israel/
Last edited by BigJon@Work on Mon May 22, 2006 11:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby DavidS » Sat May 20, 2006 1:33 pm

Fascinating.
I haven't had the time to follow all the links and arguments, but I will say this: In terms of economics and long-term political and strategic interests, Israel may not have a great deal to offer the USA, but the following should be born in mind - the value of the existence of an outpost of Western-type democracy in the Middle East is something that the USA would do well to consider, for its own and the whole world's good.
This is a matter of morals and values, n'est-ce pas?
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Postby GreatCarouser » Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:11 pm

This was e-mailed to me and is from http://www.stratfor.com...I wish I could still afford that site...
Israel lives with three realities: geographic, demographic and cultural. Geographically, it is at a permanent disadvantage, lacking strategic depth. It does enjoy the advantage of interior lines -- the ability to move forces rapidly from one front to another. Demographically, it is on the whole outnumbered, although it can achieve local superiority in numbers by choosing the time and place of war. Its greatest advantage is cultural. It has a far greater mastery of the technology and culture of war than its neighbors.

Two of the realities cannot be changed. Nothing can be done about geography or demography. Culture can be changed. It is not inherently the case that I srael will have a technological or operational advantage over its neighbors. The great inherent fear of Israel is that the Arabs will equal or surpass Israeli prowess culturally and therefore militarily. If that were to happen, then all three realities would turn against Israel and Israel might well be at risk.

That is why the capture of Israeli troops, first one in the south, then two in the north, has galvanized Israel. The kidnappings represent a level of Arab tactical prowess that previously was the Israeli domain. They also represent a level of tactical slackness on the Israeli side that was previously the Arab domain. These events hardly r epresent a fundamental shift in the balance of power. Nevertheless, for a country that depends on its cultural superiority, any tremor in this variable reverberates dramatically. Hamas and Hezbollah have struck the core Israeli nerve. Israel cannot ignore it.

Embedded in Israel's demographic problem is this: Israel has national security requirements that outstrip its manpower base. It can field a sufficient army, but its industrial base cannot supply all of the weapons needed to fight high-intensity conflicts. This means it is always dependent on an outside source for its industrial base and must align its policies with that source. At first this was the Soviets, then France and finally the United States. Israel broke with the Soviets and France when their political demands became too intense. It was after 1967 that it entered into a patron-client relationship with the United States. This relationship is its strength and its weakness. It gives the Israelis the systems they need for national security, but since U.S. and Israeli interests diverge, the relationship constrains Israel's range of action.

During the Cold War, the United States relied on Isr ael for a critical geopolitical function. The fundamental U.S. interest was Turkey, which controlled the Bosporus and kept the Soviet fleet under control in the Mediterranean. The emergence of Soviet influence in Syria and Iraq -- which was not driven by U.S. support for Israel since the United States did not provide all that much support compared to France -- threatened Turkey with attack from two directions, north and south. Turkey could not survive this. Israel drew Syrian attention away from Turkey by threatening Damascus and drawing forces and Soviet equipment away from the Turkish frontier. Israel helped secure Turkey and turned a Soviet investment into a dry hole.

Once Egypt signed a treaty with Israel and Sinai became a buffer zone, Israel became safe from a full peripheral war -- everyone attacking at the same time. Jordan was not going to launch an attack and Syria by itself could not strike. The danger to Israel became Palestinian operations inside of Israel and the occupied territories and the threat posed from Lebanon by the Syrian-sponsored group Hezbollah.

In 1982, Israel responded to this threat by invading Lebanon. It moved as far north as Beirut and the mountains east and northeast of it. Israel did not invade Beirut proper, since Israeli forces do not like urban warfare as it imposes too high a rate of attrition. But what the Israelis found was low-rate attrition. Throughout their occupation of Lebanon, they were constantly experiencing guerrilla attacks, particularly from Hezbollah.

Hezbollah has two patrons: Syria and Iran. The Syrians have used Hezbollah to pursue their political and business interests in Lebanon. Iran has used Hezbollah for business and ideological reasons. Business interests were the overlapping element. In the interest of business, it became important to Hezbollah, Syria and Iran that an accommodation be reached with Israel. Israel wanted to withdraw from Lebanon in order to end the constant low-level combat and losses.

Israel withdrew in 1988, having reached quiet understandings with Syria that Damascus would take responsibility for Hezbollah, in return for which Israel would not object to Syrian domination of L ebanon. Iran, deep in its war with Iraq, was not in a position to object if it had wanted to. Israel returned to its borders in the north, maintaining a security presence in the south of Lebanon that lasted for several years.

As Lebanon blossomed and Syria's hold on it loosened, Iran also began to increase its regional influence. Its hold on some elements of Hezbollah strengthened, and in recent months, Hezbollah -- aligning itself with Iranian Shiite ideology -- has become more aggressive. Iran ian weapons were provided to Hezbollah, and tensions grew along the frontier. This culminated in the capture of two soldiers in the north and the current crisis.

It is difficult to overestimate the impact of the soldier kidnappings on the Israeli psyche. First, while the Israeli military is extremely highly trained, Israel is also a country with mass conscription. Having a soldier kidnapped by Arabs hits every family in the country. The older generation is shocked and outraged that members of the younger generation have been captured and worried that they allowed themselves to be captured; therefore, the younger generation needs to prove it too can defeat the Arabs. This is not a primary driver, but it is a dimension.

The more fundamental issue is this: Israel withdrew from Lebanon in order to escape low-intensity conflict. If Hezbollah is now going to impose low-intensity conflict on Israel's border, the rationale for withdrawal disappears. It is better for Israel to fight deep in Lebanon than inside Israel. If the rockets are going to fall in Israel proper, then moving into a forward posture has no cost to Israel.

From an international standpoint, the Israelis expect to be condemned. These international condemnations, however, are now having the opposite effect of what is intended. The Israeli view is that they will be cond emned regardless of what they do. The differential between the condemnation of reprisal attacks and condemnation of a full invasion is not enough to deter more extreme action. If Israel is going to be attacked anyway, it might as well achieve its goals.

Moreover, an invasion of Hezbollah-held territory aligns Israel with the United States. U.S. intelligence has been extremely concerned about the growing activity of Hezbollah, and U.S. relations with Iran are not good. Lebanon is the center of gravity of Hezbollah, and the dest ruction of Hezbollah capabilities in Lebanon, particularly the command structure, would cripple Hezbollah operations globally in the near future. The United States would very much like to see that happen, but cannot do it itself. Moreover, an Israeli action would enrage the Islamic world, but it would also drive home the limits of Iranian power. Once again, Iran would have dropped Lebanon in the grease, and not been hurt itself. The lesson of Hezbollah would not be lost on the Iraqi Shia -- or so the Bush administration would hope.

Therefore, this is one Israeli action that benefits the United States, and thus helps the immediate situation as well as long-term geopolitical alignments. It realigns the United States and Israel. This also argues that any invasion must be devastating to Hezbollah. It must go deep. It must occupy temporarily. It must shatter Hezbollah.

At this point, the Israelis appear to be unrolling a war plan in this direction. They have blockaded the Lebanese coast. Israeli aircraft are attacking what air power there is in Lebanon, and have attacked Hezbollah and other key command-and-control infrastructure. It would follow that the Israelis will now concentrate on destroying Hezb ollah -- and Lebanese -- communications capabilities and attacking munitions dumps, vehicle sites, rocket-storage areas and so forth.

Most important, Israel is calling up its reserves. This is never a symbolic gesture in Israel. All Israelis below middle age are in the reserves and mobilization is costly in every sense of the word. If the Israelis were planning a routine reprisal, they would not be mobilizing. But they are, which means they are planning to do substantially more than retributive airstrikes. The question is what their plan is.

Given the blockade and what appears to be the shape of the airstrikes, it seems to us at the moment the Israelis are planning to go fairly deep into Lebanon. The logical first step i s a move to the Litani River in southern Lebanon. But given the missile attacks on Haifa, they will go farther, not only to attack launcher sites, but to get rid of weapons caches. This means a move deep into the Bekaa Valley, the seat of Hezbollah power and the location of plants and facilities. Such a penetration would leave Israeli forces' left flank open, so a move into Bekaa would likely be accompanied by attacks to the west. It would bring the Israelis close to Beirut again.

This leaves Israel's right flank exposed, a nd that exposure is to Syria. The Israeli doctrine is that leaving Syrian airpower intact while operating in Lebanon is dangerous. Therefore, Israel must at least be considering using its air force to attack Syrian facilities, unless it gets ironclad assurances the Syrians will not intervene in any way. Conversations are going on between Egypt and Syria, and we suspect this is the subject. But Israel would not necessarily object to the opportunity of eliminating Syrian air power as part of its operation, or if Syria chooses, going even further.

At the same time, Israel does not intend to get bogged down in Lebanon again. It will want to go in, wreak havoc, withdraw. That means it will go deeper and faster, and be more devastating, than if it were planning a long-term occupation. It will go in to liquidate Hezbollah and then leave. True, this is no final solution, but for the Israelis, there are no final solutions.

Israeli forces are already in Lebanon. Its special forces are inside identifying targets for airstrikes. We expect numerous air attacks over the next 48 hours, as well as reports of firefights in southern Lebanon. We also exp ect more rocket attacks on Israel.

It will take several days to mount a full invasion of Lebanon. We would not expect major operations before the weekend at the earliest. If the rocket attacks are taking place, however, Israel might send several brigades to the Litani River almost immediately in order to move the rockets out of range of Haifa. Therefore, we would expect a rapid operation in the next 24-48 hours followed by a larger force later.

At this point, the only thing that can prevent this would be a major intervention by Syria with real guarantees that it would restrain Hezbollah and indications such operations are under way. Syria is the key to a peaceful resolution. Syria must calculate the relative risks, and we expect them to be unwilling to act decisively.

Therefore:

1. Israel cannot tolerate an insurgency on its northern frontier; if there is one, it wants it farther north.

2. It cannot tolerate attacks on Haifa.

3. It cannot endure a crisis of confidence in its military

4. Hezbollah cannot back off of its engagement with Israel.

5. Syria can stop this, but the cost to it stopping it is higher than the cost of letting it go on.

It would appear Israel will invade Lebanon. The global response will be noisy. There will be no substantial international action against Israel. Beirut's tourism and transportation industry, as well as its financial sectors, are very much at risk.
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Postby bignaf » Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:59 pm

The kidnappings represent a level of Arab tactical prowess that previously was the Israeli domain.

this is false on all grounds, and nonsensical.
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Postby GreatCarouser » Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:12 pm

bignaf wrote:
The kidnappings represent a level of Arab tactical prowess that previously was the Israeli domain.

this is false on all grounds, and nonsensical.


I believe you are misreading the report if you read this as a moral accusation. It is simply a statement that acknowledges the increased sophistication and tactical skill level of Isreal's enemies...these types of successes could not and did not take place until recently.
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Postby bignaf » Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:48 pm

I actually didn't, I probably should have elaborated.
what I meant is that the facts are wrong. they did occur several times before and they aren't particularly sophisticated. in addition, the type of sophistication that is invloved, has nothing to do with what we say sophistication when referring to Israel. therefore the analogy is false.
otherwise that article is not too bad.
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Postby BigJon@Work » Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:13 pm

I'm surprised there isn't more chatter on hear about this. Is Israel making a grave mistake? Can they really crush Hezbollah?
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Postby Marye » Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:30 pm

I'm not surprised, actually. This is a blistering topic and any opinion can be misinterpreted very easily, I think. Lliam's other hot topic, Is Bush the Right man, deteriorated into volleys of very unkind remarks that I would hate to see repeated. I for one would rather stay silent .
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