9/11 Report

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Moderator: Nicole Marie

Re: 9/11 Report

Postby The Great Carouser » Wed Jul 28, 2004 3:12 am

Originally posted by Nicole Marie:
... If we are going to put effort into bringing down a Saddam like leader, then why don't we focus on Iran or North Korea who we know have WMD's and do have the drive to use them against us.
You've answered your own question, Nicole. It's precisely because they have WMDs . These are not Grenada,Panama, or Iraq. Those were places we could count on our vast technological and numerical superiority to make 'short work' of any war with very few negative repercussions (body bags). Iran and North Korea might actually use a WMD if we fought them. How do you think that will play with the folks in the heartland?
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Re: 9/11 Report

Postby barfle » Wed Jul 28, 2004 8:31 am

Haggis, there's not a lot of data in that news report, sounding a lot like the stuff we hear when we go to code orange. While it might well be worth serious investigation, it's not adequate for invading a sovereign nation whose neighboring nations felt no threat.

And, as shos has noted, repetition isn't all that bad, especially when the point seems to be being missed. That point being: Weapons inspectors were on the ground in Iraq, getting full cooperation, and WE ran them out so we could invade.
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Re: 9/11 Report

Postby haggis » Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:24 am

” And, as shos has noted, repetition isn't all that bad, especially when the point seems to be being missed. That point being: Weapons inspectors were on the ground in Iraq, getting full cooperation, and WE ran them out so we could invade.”


Barfle, pardon me if I find that point less than persuasive. The UN inspectors had already been in Iraq for eight years from 1991 to 1998 and never received full cooperation. As for “full cooperation” during the last time, Hans Blix, certainly no friend of the U.S., said:

"Iraq appears not to have come to a genuine acceptance, not even today, of the disarmament that was demanded of it."
In Mid February 2003, Blix reported the best cooperation the UN ever got as “slight”.

When, on 16 September 2003, Saddam agreed to allow the inspectors back it was because four days earlier Bush threaten Iraq with invasion if he didn’t allow them back in.

We seem to forget that they were “weapons inspectors” not “weapons finders.” For eight years Saddam ran them all around the country and blocked their attempt to find and inspect weapons.

All the way up until the war began the conventional wisdom among the UN inspectors was that Saddam had WMD.

UN Inspectors timeline

28 February 1991: Gulf War ends, leaving Iraq subject to UN sanctions and arms inspections.

29 October 1997: Iraq bars US weapons inspectors, provoking a diplomatic crisis, which is defused with a Russian-brokered compromise.

13 January 1998: Iraq blocks an inspection by a US-dominated team and accuses its leader, Scott Ritter, of spying for America.

23 February 1998: UN Secretary General Kofi Annan announces a deal on weapons inspections after meeting Saddam Hussein in Baghdad.

31 October 1998: The Iraqi leadership says it has ceased all co-operation with Unscom, the United Nations Special Commission set up for weapons inspections in Iraq.

14 November 1998: Baghdad tells the UN it is willing to allow inspections to resume.

17 November 1998: Unscom inspectors return to Iraq.

16 December 1998: The UN orders weapons inspectors out of the country after Unscom chief Richard Butler issued a report saying the Iraqis were still refusing to co-operate. US air strikes on Iraq begin hours later.

17 December 1999: Unscom is replaced by the UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (Unmovic). Iraq rejects the resolution.

1 March 2000: Hans Blix assumes the post of Unmovic executive chairman.

3 May 2002: Unmovic and Iraqi officials hold talks - Mr Annan says they are the first to take place at technical level since December 1998.

5 July 2002: UN-Iraq talks end without agreement on inspections as Baghdad seeks assurances that sanctions will be lifted.

31 July 2002: Richard Butler tells a US Senate committee that Iraq stepped up the production of chemical and biological weapons after UN inspections ended - and might even be close to developing a nuclear bomb.

1 August 2002: Iraq says the chief weapons inspector, Hans Blix, is welcome in Baghdad for "technical talks".

12 September 2002: President Bush addresses the UN General Assembly and warns Iraq that military action will be unavoidable if it does not comply with UN resolutions on disarmament.

16 September 2002: UN Secretary General Kofi Annan says he has received a letter from the Iraqi Government offering to allow the unconditional return of weapons inspectors.

24 September 2002: Britain publishes a report on Iraq's weapons programmes.

28 September 2002: Iraq rejects a draft UN resolution proposed by the United States for with strict new rules for weapons inspections.

1 October 2002: Hans Blix and Iraq agree practical arrangements for the return of weapons inspectors. US Secretary of State Colin Powell rejects it and says the US wants a tough new UN Security Council resolution.

11 October 2002: The US Senate follows the House of Representatives in authorising President Bush to use force against Iraq.

15 October 2002: Saddam Hussein wins 100% of the vote in a referendum on a new presidential term for him.

25 October 2002: US formally proposes a new resolution on disarming Iraq to the UN Security Council.

4 November 2002: Saddam Hussein says Iraq will comply with a new UN resolution as long as it does not serve as an excuse for US military action.

8 November 2002: UN Security Council unanimously passes a new resolution on Iraq's disarmament, warning of "serious consequences" for material breaches.

12 November 2002: Iraq's parliament rejects the UN resolution.

13 November 2002 Iraq's Government accepts the UN resolution.

18 November 2002: Hans Blix leads UN inspectors back to Baghdad to start their mission.

27 January 2003: The UN's formal report on Iraqi inspections is highly critical, though not damning, with chief UN weapons inspector Hans Blix stating that "Iraq appears not to have come to a genuine acceptance, not even today, of the disarmament that was demanded of it."

14 February 2003: In a February UN report, chief UN inspector Hans Blix indicated that slight progress had been made in Iraq's cooperation.

Feb/Mar 2003: UN inspectors leave Iraq
Haggis

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Re: 9/11 Report

Postby haggis » Wed Jul 28, 2004 11:48 am

Nicole and Serenity,

North Korea's tested a three-stage missile on August 31, 1998; at the time we weren’t aware that it had malfunctioned. Following the test U.S. intelligence assessments regarding the missile test found that:

1. The third stage of the missile, claimed as a satellite by North Korea, traveled over 3,000 miles and landed in waters near Alaska.
2. North Korea is now believed to have a missile capable of striking Alaska and Hawaii
3. North Korea constructed underground sites to deploy these missiles
4. North Korea will have a longer-range ICBM capable of striking the U.S. west coast and other parts of the continental United States within five years.
5. North Korea has between 2-5 nuclear weapons.

All of this mainly occurred in the mid-90’s when the Clinton Administration was escalating claims of success in its "engagement" policy towards North Korea.

I certainly applaud President Bush’s decision that North Korea is more of a problem for China, South Korea, Japan and Russia and has begun to pull some, if not all, of our 25,000 troops back from the DMZ.

Of course, now the U.S. is being criticized for NOT taking unilateral action against North Korea by the same governments that accused us of taking unilateral action in Iraq, go figure.

Robert Walpole, the National Intelligence Officer for Strategic and Nuclear Programs for the CIA, testified before a Senate subcommittee in March 2002.

According to Walpole, the North Korean "multiple-stage Taepo Dong-2, which is capable of reaching the United States with a nuclear-weapon-sized payload, may be ready for flight testing.


Regarding Iran, Walpole reported, "All agencies agree that Iran could attempt to launch an ICBM about mid-decade." That could, then, be in three or five years so. (He went on to say, "[the agencies] believe Iran is likely to take until the last half of the decade to do so.

According to Walpole, Iraq "could test an ICBM within about five years of the acquisition."And if it slipped out from various U.N. prohibitions, "Iraq would be likely to test an ICBM probably masked as an SLV [space launch vehicle] before 2015, possibly before 2010 with significant foreign assistance."

It is worth noting that most of North Korea and Iran’s activity in developing nuclear weapons and the means to drop them on the U.S. occurred in the 90's, long before the Bush administration.

Bush didn’t create this threatening international environment; he's reacting to it.

And beside, people who throw up the argument that
”why don't we focus on Iran or North Korea who we know have WMD's and do have the drive to use them against us.”
really just want to make some style points and would be equally as horrified if the U.S. did decide to confront NK and Iran.

Nicole, from your statement do I assume you’d support preemptive military action against Iran if they refused to give up their pursuit of nuclear weapons?

The world now has two non-legitimate governments, North Korea and Pakistan controlling nuclear weapons - three, if you think Iran already has one.

Do we decide, as national policy that we will hold the high moral ground by not doing anything until one of those weapons goes off in Long beach harbor?

Or do we try anything up to and including force to eliminate those threats?

I’m curious what you think.


Haggis
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Re: 9/11 Report

Postby Nicole Marie » Wed Jul 28, 2004 12:33 pm

Haggis I am never for war. My point is we have a trigger-happy person in office. (Remember, he's the war president, his words not mine.) If he wants to blow something up, if he's hell bent on war, if he wants to send our troops into the line of fire... then go after WMD's in a country that actually has them.

Also Haggis, about your comments above... That crap about when people say, "Well Clinton could have done something..." He's not in office anymore! I hold responsible the person that IS in office. Even if it was a Dem in office I'd be just as critical of any move to go to war or to find a solution to NK and Iran. (War being the last.) Bush can do something but does not.

You also made no sense in that last post. You applaud Bush for stating that NK is a larger threat to China etc. "I certainly applaud President Bush’s decision that North Korea is more of a problem for China, South Korea, Japan and Russia and has begun to pull some, if not all, of our 25,000 troops back from the DMZ." (Implying that we don't need to worry about it.)

But then state the interview with Walpole where they are a threat to us, "According to Walpole, the North Korean "multiple-stage Taepo Dong-2, which is capable of reaching the United States with a nuclear-weapon-sized payload, may be ready for flight testing." You or Bush can not have it both ways, either they are or are not a threat. Given the interview you posted, it seems they are and we do need to do something about it. Bush, like Clinton, seems to be doing nothing.

That's what ticks me off about Bush, he picks the wrong fight. You gave great evidence that shows where the treat is in Iran and NK. But yet we invade Iraq! We already had a presence in the No Fly zones. UN inspectors where there. Iraq was under more control then Iran and NK. Bush turns a blind eye to the real threat, wastes our time, money and lives while the real threat is brewing. Do we go to war? No! I am never for war. But I do believe we have the power to do something but are currently wasting our energy on Iraq. Great war president we have, he wants to fight the fight he knows he can win. It's like taking candy from a baby. (Small man syndrome if you ask me.) ;)

We gave him a shot for four years. He blew it. Turned us every which way but forward. Time to say goodbye.

P.S. Great C... loved your post!

<small>[ 07-28-2004, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Nicole Marie ]</small>
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Re: 9/11 Report

Postby RC » Wed Jul 28, 2004 2:24 pm

Reasons cited to attack Iraq:

1. Responsibility for 9/11, (Al Qaieda training camps, funding, hiding terrorists).

A. Of the 19 hijackers of 911, 15 were Saudi’s, 1 was Egyptian, and 2 from United Arab Emirates. Second only to Israel, Egypt receives more money from the US government than any other country in the world. Saudi Arabia is the lynchpin to US/Middle Eastern oil trade. Why Iraq?,
B. Saddam Hussein’s early Iraq was one of the most secular governments in the Middle East supporting education of women, capitalistic banking as well as Islamic banking (interest vs. non-interest), financial support and governmental protection of Christian churches, and Jewish synagogues as well as Islamic mosques. In 1970, the Iraqi constitution, under Saddam Hussein, declared all women and men equal before the law. The 1970s and early 1980s were years of economic growth in Iraq and state-induced policies were formed to eradicate illiteracy, educate women and incorporate them into the labor force. Hussein was NOT a fundamental Islamist. Members of the ruling Baath Party generally are ideologically committed to secularism.
a. For that reason, he was hated by many neighboring countries. Example; Iran, neighbor to Iraq’s eastern border, (under the infamous Ayatollah Khomeini who most certainly IS a radical fundamental Islamist), and with whom Iraq fought a bitter war throughout the 1980’s. The US claimed neutrality in this conflict. This is the same war in which the US, under Ronald Reagan, admittedly sold weapons to Iran, used the proceeds to fund the Nicaraguan Contra’s against the Sandanista’s in Central America and, in turn, had Iran (our loathsome enemy), lean on Lebanon to release US hostages AKA, “The Iran Contra Affair”. Being greatly out-numbered and nearly annihilated, Hussein began his experimentation with chemical warfare in the late 80’s. He later ruthlessly used these to quell uprisings within his own borders and launched a few toward Israel in the first Persian Gulf War. This was also the beginning of the end for Iran’s secularist government which completely fell apart after the Persian Gulf War sanctions.
b. Afghanistan, neighbor to Iraq’s western border, home of the Taliban was another foe of Iraq. Because of their extreme fundamentalism, the Taliban was recognized as the official government of Afghanistan by only ONE country in the world – Pakistan (our “ally”). It is here in Afghanistan that the Taliban not only harbored but supported and promoted al Qaeida. Al Qaieda, is the confessed terrorist group responsible for 9/11. It does not make sense that Hussein would support al Qaeida. According to the findings of the 911 Commission, there is no evidence that any such allegation is true. There was brought to the Commission evidence that disproves one allegation completely; Cheney said it was "pretty well confirmed" that Sept. 11 mastermind Mohamed Atta met with a senior Iraqi intelligence official before the attacks, on April 22, 2000 in Prague; Cheney later said the meeting could not be proved or disproved. A video tape of Mohamed Atta making withdrawals from his US bank account, (in Florida), on the day in question was submitted to the Commission. But the misstatements left a lasting impression on the American public: According to a Harris poll conducted in late April a plurality of Americans, 49 percent to 36 percent, believe there is "clear evidence that Iraq was supporting al-Qaida has been found."
c. A training camp was reported to have been found outside of Baghdad. Other sightings of terrorist activities and support:

ABC July 25, 2003: “British authorities also thought that militants from overseas were training in the United States to take advantage of America's gun laws, sources told ABCNEWS. The looming question for law enforcement is whether there is a connection between the camp and the al Qaeda terror network. An investigation by Britain's Scotland Yard led to the discovery of the camp in Marion, Ala. The facility is called "Ground Zero USA."”
The Jakarta News: “Police on Monday said they found military style camps north of the South Sulawesi capital of Makassar that they believed belonged to the group of Agung Abdul Hamid, the alleged mastermind of the Makassar bombing that killed three people last month. Adding suspicion of foreign involvement in the series of bomb attacks against the nation, police said the camp instructors had likely come from the Philippines and Afghanistan.”
FreeRepublic.com "A Conservative News Forum" : “March 11, 2004: Al Qaeda is rebuilding its network of training camps by moving in with other Islamic terrorist organizations. The two areas where this is happening most successfully are Southeast Asia (the Philippines and Indonesia) and Pakistan (the Pakistan controlled portion of Kashmir).” “… Al Qaeda does have support, if not much infrastructure, in other parts of the world. Africa has enthusiasm among Moslem populations, but not much else.” “ … Recruiting is still active in Europe and many Moslem countries, but is done discretely, because the police are paying attention now. Fund raising, especially in wealthier Western countries, is more difficult, but still goes on.”
2. Protection from Weapons of Mass Destruction:
A. Known nuclear armed countries: US, Russia, China, England, France, India and Pakistan. Suspected: Israel (South Africa gave theirs to Israel as well when Mandella came to power), Pakistan, India, North Korea, Iran, and the Ukraine.
B. From Hans Blix, former UN chief weapons inspector in Iraq:

On the afternoon of Sunday, March 16, 2003, I was in my office on the thirty-first floor of the United Nations Secretariat building in New York, the headquarters of the UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission for Iraq (UNMOVIC). Some of my close collaborators had joined me to put the final touches on a work program I was to submit to the Security Council.

When our commission was established by a Security Council resolution in December 1999, the Council had recognized that there might still be weapons of mass destruction (WMD) in Iraq, despite the fact that a great deal of disarmament had been accomplished through UN inspections after the end of the Gulf War in 1991. In November 2002, a new round of inspections had been initiated to identify key remaining tasks in the disarming of Iraq.

Although the inspection organization was now operating at full strength and Iraq seemed as determined to give it prompt access everywhere, the United States appeared determined to replace our inspection force with an invasion army. After the terror attacks on New York and Washington on September 11, 2001, a policy of containment-keeping Saddam Hussein in his box-and ensuring the disarmament of Iraq through UN inspections was deemed no longer acceptable.

The people around me were all solid professionals coming from different parts of the world. There was Dimitri Perricos, probably the world's most experienced inspector. A Greek and by profession a chemist, he had more than twenty years of experience with international nuclear inspections-in Iraq, North Korea, South Africa and many other places. He was the head of operations. Muttusamy Sanmuganathan, known to all as Sam, was from Sri Lanka. Both Dimitri and Sam had worked closely with me for many years in Vienna, when I was the director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). Ewen Buchanan, a Scot, was our manager of media relations and institutional memory. For years he had been a political expert and the spokesman of the previous inspection authority, the UN Special Commission (UNSCOM). There was Torkel Stiernlöf, who had been stationed in Baghdad and knew Arabic. He was about to return to his job at the foreign ministry in Stockholm after six intense months as my executive assistant. Lastly, there was Torkel's successor, Olof Skoog, an ambassador at the early age of 35 and on loan to me.

The military invasion of Iraq was all but announced and here we were at the UN sketching a peaceful way to try to ensure the country's disarmament! The military force, whose buildup had begun in the summer of 2002 and had been an essential reason why Iraq had accepted the inspectors back, had reached invasion strength and was now waiting to be deployed.

In the Security Council, all efforts to reach agreement on what might be demanded of Iraq in the next few weeks had collapsed. Proposals had been made by the British that Saddam Hussein should go before Iraqi television and declare his determination to disarm and to cooperate fully with the inspectors. The declaration would be accompanied by Iraq's fulfillment of a number of specific disarmament tasks within a very short time-perhaps ten days. (The approach had some similarity to the British efforts which ten months later would prompt Libya's leader, Colonel Muammar Qaddafi, to declare that Libya was stopping all efforts to acquire weapons of mass destruction and would open up for thorough inspection.) The U.S./UK would consider themselves authorized to take armed action against Iraq if they determined that Iraq was in non-fulfillment of the demands.

While the guidelines in the December 1999 UNMOVIC resolution were perfectly valid and called for a work program covering a first period of 120 days of inspections, the U.S., the UK and Spain had been taking their cues from Security Council Resolution 1441, adopted on November 8, 2002. In their reading, this resolution gave Iraq only a limited time and a last opportunity to cooperate to attain disarmament or else face "serious consequences." That limited time, in their view, had now expired. Others in the Security Council thought the process of inspections required more time. They were not ready, at this stage, to authorize "serious consequences"-armed action. Most member states of the Council were of the view that such a decision was for the Council collectively, not for individual members, as the U.S. and the UK insisted.

On this Sunday, U.S. president George W. Bush, British prime minister Tony Blair and Spanish prime minister Jose Maria Aznar Lopez had met for an hour on the Azores islands in the middle of the Atlantic and, for the record, made a last appeal to reluctant members of the Security Council to go along with the draft resolution on Iraq. Blair had stressed that they had gone an extra mile for peace, but Bush seemed already to be describing the blessings that would follow from armed action.

Most observers felt the war was now a certainty-and, indeed, it came. Although I thought the probability was very high, I was also, even at this very late date, aware that unexpected things can happen. I remembered how, in July 1991, after confrontations, the Iraqis had sent the IAEA a note admitting that they had tried several methods of enriching uranium. In October 1998, Kofi Annan, the secretary general of the United Nations, had secured an important concession from Iraq, prompting U.S. president Bill Clinton to call back bombers that had been sent to punish Iraq for its lack of cooperation. If, in the current situation, Saddam Hussein had made the kind of dramatic speech the British suggested, and offered quickly to solve a number of issues, there might well have been a suspension of the marching and flying orders and, instead, intensified inspections. Saddam did make a speech on his son's television channel, but it was not the dramatic gesture that the situation called for. In it, he noted that Iraq had had weapons of mass destruction in the past, but that it had none now.

As we were sitting around the table in my office, the telephone rang. It was Assistant Secretary of State John Wolf in Washington, calling to advise me that it was time to withdraw our inspectors from Iraq. No further notice would be issued and expeditious action was suggested.

Preparations for the Withdrawal of Inspectors

We had been preparing for this situation since the end of February, and in the previous few weeks had deliberately decreased the total number of our staff in Iraq. The chartered helicopters had already been removed by their owners. We had one airplane sitting in Baghdad and another was chartered to enable us to assist the UN by airlifting staff dealing with humanitarian assistance. Jeeps and buses for land transport would also be available, if this were to prove necessary.

It was now around 3 p.m. this Sunday in New York, and 11 p.m. in Baghdad. If Dr. Miroslav Gregovic, the head of our mission in Baghdad, were instructed immediately, the first planeload of staff would leave Baghdad the following morning. I was anxious to bring the people for whom I was responsibile to security as soon as possible. However, I was not the only one with responsibility. As secretary general, Kofi Annan had the highest managerial responsibility for all UN staff in Iraq. My colleague Mohamed ElBaradei, director general of the IAEA, was responsible for the nuclear inspectors in Baghdad. I phoned both. Mohamed did not want to hasten the process. He was anxious that the withdrawal should not look like a retreat.

Although the secretary general did not need permission from the Security Council to issue an order of withdrawal, he wanted to inform the Council before he gave the instruction. He decided that he would do so at a meeting the Council was scheduled to hold on Monday morning. This meant that the withdrawal could not take place until Tuesday morning. I was not happy about the delay, but I assumed Kofi had reasons to be confident that this delay did not increase the risks.

Security Council, March 17: Resolution Authorizing War Withdrawn from Vote

Our inspectors in Iraq continued to work on Monday, March 17. They supervised the destruction of two Al Samoud 2 missiles, bringing the total number destroyed to seventy-two. They conducted a private interview with a biological scientist, bringing the total number of such private interviews to eleven. Inspection teams visited a dairy factory 140 kilometers north of Baghdad and two sites northwest of Baghdad. I worried about the risk of any hitches in the arrangements for their withdrawal on Tuesday morning. We had earlier received assurances from the Iraqi side, but I remembered that, in 1990, hostages had been taken.

The Security Council met at 10 a.m. To my dismay, Kofi Annan did not announce the withdrawal of UN staff from Iraq. It was already 6 p.m. in Baghdad and every hour's delay in issuing instructions from New York would make the preparations for departure more difficult.

The tone in the Council was not combative or acrimonious. The struggle was over. The path of inspection had been blocked by the U.S., the UK and Spain, and a resolution implicitly blessing armed intervention had been blocked by the majority of states in the Security Council. The Azores meeting and all the working of telephones during the weekend had not brought any change in the positions of governments. The UK said that the draft resolution, which it had sponsored in the Council, would not be put to a vote. This was a tacit admission that it could not have passed. If the resolution had been submitted to a vote and rejected, the negative vote would have further undermined the doubtful claim by the sponsors that earlier resolutions by the Council authorized them to use armed force if and when they deemed that Iraq was in non-fulfillment.

Even though the UK and the U.S. pointed to the threat of a veto from France as the reason for this debacle-ignoring the possibility that China and Russia might have joined France-a majority of the Council had, in fact if not in form, refused to legitimize armed action. The UK persisted in stating that although the chances for a peaceful solution were now slim, Saddam could still take action to save the situation. The U.S. confirmed the advice that the UN should take expeditious action to withdraw staff.

France declared its opposition to any resolution that would authorize force and rejected the view that individual members could use armed force without Council authorization. France wanted UNMOVIC to present its work program for inspections and suggested the Council meet-perhaps at ministerial level, as Russia had urged-on Wednesday to approve the program. A time line should be set after which the Council would evaluate the results of the inspections. Mexico said there was at the time no justification for the use of force in Iraq. Angola said it had lived with war and insisted on the need to exhaust all peaceful means.

War Justified by Iraq's Failure to Disarm; Moment of Truth Expected

In a televised speech on the evening of Monday, March 17, President Bush issued an ultimatum to Saddam Hussein to leave Iraq with his family within forty-eight hours. Vice President Dick Cheney said that an offer by Iraq to disarm was no longer an option. Referring to Saddam Hussein, he said, "We believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." His declaration was as firm as it was unfounded.

Secretary of State Colin Powell was more nuanced. At a press conference on March 17, he said the U.S. had become concerned about Iraq's sincerity shortly after the adoption of the new resolution in November 2002. The 12,000-page declaration Iraq had submitted a month later had, he stated, been an incomplete and untruthful rendering of their weapons programs. The U.S. had cooperated loyally with and assisted the inspectors. Despite some improvements, Iraq had not, however, provided the kind of cooperation demanded. The resolution which the U.S., the UK and Spain had now decided not to put to the vote would have given Iraq yet another last opportunity, but it had been blocked by France's threatened veto. So, although the UN would remain an important institution, the Security Council, in this case, had not met the test.

Perhaps it was convenient to blame the diplomatic failure on France, but it was evident that a majority of the members of the Council were against armed action at this juncture, though none of the states had excluded agreement on it at a subsequent stage. It is an interesting notion that when a small minority has been rebuffed by a strong majority, it is the majority that has failed the test.

There was no reference in Colin Powell's statement to the U.S. asserting a right to strike preemptively against Iraq. Instead, his legal justification given for the armed action was the same as that claimed by the UK: namely, that Iraq had not fulfilled its obligations under binding Security Council resolutions to disarm and that this entitled individual members of the Council to take action without the need for any collective decision by the Council.

With an expression used also by other U.S. spokesmen, Powell declared that the window on diplomacy was closing and that the "moment of truth" was arriving. Armed action, indeed, stands in contrast to diplomacy-but it does not necessarily stand for truth. There might be more to the saying "The first casualty in war is truth." Nor do I find it appropriate to make diplomacy the opposite of truth-to project it as lies or illusion. Diplomacy will often use language that understates the divergence of positions so as to minimize the gaps that have to be bridged and make reconciliation less difficult, but lying is not a part of diplomacy-at least not of good diplomacy.

The most important truth that U.S. spokesmen had in mind and expected to be revealed through the war was undoubtedly the existence of stocks of biological and chemical weapons and other prohibited items, and the people and programs related to them.

Withdrawal of UN Staff and Submission of Work Program to the Council

On Tuesday, March 18, Dimitri Perricos phoned at 7 a.m. and told me that our first plane from Baghdad had arrived in Cyprus and that the second was due a little later. All had gone well! They had even been able to take along sensitive equipment. The Iraqis had been most helpful throughout the operation. What a relief! Our inspectors would now stay in Larnaca for some days before being released to go back to their home countries. As they remained formally in our service until their contracts expired, they would still be available in the rather unlikely case that UNMOVIC would be asked to perform some verification function during the coming occupation. I was relieved that all our staff was out of danger, but I also felt empty, as after a school test for which you have braced yourself, and I was disappointed that we had not been given a reasonable amount of time to achieve the mission with which we had been entrusted. I had accepted the task of building and leading the new inspection organization three years before.

Excerpted from Disarming Iraq byHans Blix Copyright© 2004 by Hans Blix. Excerpted by permission of Pantheon, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher.


3. Prevent Genocide/Humanitarian aid:
Sudan
1983 - present (... as of 2004)
The US government's Sudan Peace Act of October 21, 2002 accused Sudan of genocide for killing more than 2 million civilians in the south during an ongoing civil war since 1983. Organised campaign by Janjaweed militias (nomadic arab shepherds with support of Sudanese goverment and troops) to rid 80 black African tribes from the Darfur region of western Sudan. Mukesh Kapila (United Nations humanitarian coordinator) is qouted saying "The vicious war in Darfur has let to violations on a scale comparable in character with Rwanda in 1994. All the warning signs are there."

Rwanda
(April 1994)
Roughly 800,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus were killed by Hutus. See History of Rwanda.

Zimbabwe
(1983–1984)
Robert Mugabe sent in the 5th Brigade to systematicy cull the Matabele people. Well over 20,000 civilians killed and buried in mass graves.

People's Republic of China
Some political groups, such as the Free Tibet movement, have claimed that the government of the People's Republic of China has committed genocide by killing members of several minority ethnic groups, including Uighurs, Tibetans and others during the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. Most scholars argue that this is not a case of genocide but simple famine, because while minority ethnic groups died, so did members of the majority Han Chinese, and at no time has the PRC government undertaken policies specifically to kill minority groups. Famine has been a cyclical, recurring phenomenon in Chinese history for thousands of years. The PRC states that these charges help to indoctrinate impressionable youths in the Free Tibet movement and other groups with anti-China agendas.

Iraq
Anfal campaign against Iran-aligned Kurdish populations - ethnic cleansing, and in cases bordering on genocide. Chemical weapons attacks on Kurds 1986-88 (Saddam Hussein's forces used Sarin to kill the population of a Kurd village. See Halabja poison gas attack for a full discussion) and on Iranians.

All things being equal, (i.e., purely humanitarian, no oil influence), why Iraq?
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Re: 9/11 Report

Postby Shapley » Wed Jul 28, 2004 4:01 pm

RE: Why Iraq.

We had a resolution in place that called for action if Iraq violated it. Iraq violated it. No action was taken. Iraq continued to violate it. It was re-written, but still no action was taken. Iraq rejected the re-written resolution, action was threatened. Iraq continued to violate it. Build-up to action was started. Iraq offered to stop violating it, but did not actually do so. Action was finally taken.

This doesn't sound like war-mongering. It's called following through, and it is how nations act if they are to be taken seriously.

As for the other nations. The diplomatic channels have not been played out. There are no resolutions in place calling for action, so we're not ready to take action.

V/R
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Re: 9/11 Report

Postby haggis » Wed Jul 28, 2004 4:06 pm

Nicole,
Very good points and I wasn't blaming President Clinton, just pointing out that Bush inherited the problems and didn't create them.

As I mentioned in another post the Korean war was a war started by Democrats to advance U.S. national interest and it was a good idea. However, since the 80's NK really isn't a problem to the U.S. especially if the U.S. pulls out of SK, which I think we should.

Let China, Japan, SK and Russia handle that nutjob in charge, as long as NK doesn't attack us, why should we care?

But Iran, I believe, poses a real threat to the U.S. and has for a long time, if for nothing else than we are slowly learning more and more that the Mullahs tacitly, if not specifically, had a hand in 9/11.

Now that we have troops on three of Iran's four borders, we have some serious leverage and other options in our toolbox, so....

I understand your frustration with President Bush, I also have some pains he created, especially his profligate spending trying to woo over the house and senate Democrats!!
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Re: 9/11 Report

Postby haggis » Wed Jul 28, 2004 5:03 pm

<small>[ 07-28-2004, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: Haggis ]</small>
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Re: 9/11 Report

Postby shostakovich » Wed Jul 28, 2004 8:57 pm

posted 07-28-2004 05:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Why Iraq.

We had a resolution in place that called for action if Iraq violated it. Iraq violated it. No action was taken. Iraq continued to violate it. It was re-written, but still no action was taken. Iraq rejected the re-written resolution, action was threatened. Iraq continued to violate it. Build-up to action was started. Iraq offered to stop violating it, but did not actually do so. Action was finally taken.

This doesn't sound like war-mongering. It's called following through, and it is how nations act if they are to be taken seriously.

As for the other nations. The diplomatic channels have not been played out. There are no resolutions in place calling for action, so we're not ready to take action.

V/R
Shapley
--------------------------------------------------

The resolutions were UN resolutions, not US. WE had no justification for taking action, especially as the UN was not in agreement. The war happened because Dubya wanted it and had the tools.

Haggis, I was surprised to read that our government has been criticized for NOT attacking NK. Who criticized?

I'm also impressed with all the fact-digging and passion shown in this thread. It might be worth collapsing into a book: The Bulletin Board on Bush.
Admiringly, Shos

<small>[ 07-28-2004, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: shostakovich ]</small>
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Re: 9/11 Report

Postby RC » Thu Jul 29, 2004 7:16 am

Shos...lol...book...lol

SOME of us are old enough to just KNOW this stuff (clearing throat and mumbling "Haggis"), and have closer experience than the rest of us, (Haggis).

I have a horrible memory. I live through something and remember the impression it gave me. When I need to use it, I have to go dig it up again so I don't get blasted for "bad intelligence" :roll:

What I find interesting in this thread is how absolutely sincere and adamant people are about their positions. I'd like to write THAT book. I have a good idea of what makes me think and react the way I do - my dad (deceased), my mom, my husband, being a mother, general life experiences.

I'd like to crawl inside your minds and see what makes you all think and feel the way you do.
Now go to sleep dear and don't worry, nothings going to crawl in through your ear and devour your brain...
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Re: 9/11 Report

Postby barfle » Thu Jul 29, 2004 8:06 am

Originally posted by Haggis:
And, as shos has noted, repetition isn't all that bad, especially when the point seems to be being missed. That point being: Weapons inspectors were on the ground in Iraq, getting full cooperation, and WE ran them out so we could invade.
Barfle, pardon me if I find that point less than persuasive. The UN inspectors had already been in Iraq for [b]eight years from 1991 to 1998 and never received full cooperation. As for “full cooperation” during the last time, Hans Blix, certainly no friend of the U.S., said:

"Iraq appears not to have come to a genuine acceptance, not even today, of the disarmament that was demanded of it."
In Mid February 2003, Blix reported the best cooperation the UN ever got as “slight”.[/b]
From ABC News, February 25:
The chief U.N. weapons inspector said today that Baghdad has shown new signs of substantive cooperation in recent days
From The Guardian, March 7:
Only hours after the US president, George Bush, threatened to push for a resolution authorising military action against Iraq within days, the chief UN weapons inspector this afternoon described Iraqi cooperation on disarmament as "active or even proactive".
From The Washington Post, March 18
The United Nations' chief weapons inspector, Hans Blix, said today that it "was not reasonable" for the United States to end U.N. inspections in Iraq at a time when its government was providing more cooperation than it has in more than a decade.
Did you think I was making this stuff up?

<small>[ 07-29-2004, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: barfle ]</small>
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Re: 9/11 Report

Postby haggis » Thu Jul 29, 2004 8:20 am

Shos,
Not attacking but entering unilateral talks with NK. NK has refused to deal with anyone except the U.S. and the U.S., quite rightly in my opinion, has told NK that the U.S. will enter in joint talks with China, SK, Russia and Japan.

The EU condemned the U.S. for insisting that those countries most concerned with NK be involved. The U.S. rightly again in my opinion, believes that China is trying to get out of being the “heavy” in this wrangle by insisting the U.S. handle the problem. When China sees that we are not going to pull their chestnuts out of the fire then they will have to do something.

Ironically, did you know that NK DOESN’T want the U.S. to pull troops out of SK, but the popular sentiment in SK is that the U.S. should leave?

Without those 25,000 troops (and more importantly their 150,000 family members, and civilians) to serve as hostages, NK realizes that if we pull out, any action they take will then be just between them and the other governments in the region. Thankfully, none of them has Jimmy Carter’s home phone number!

NK and the situation there scare me personally. NK, as it currently exist, will not exist in 18 years at the outside and maybe as few as 7 years at the inside.

How it goes out depends on its neighbors and not the U.S. Ideally, it will go out with a whimper like East Germany, but I doubt it.

What I'm afraid of is that it will start selling nukes to keep itself afloat. There was a very strong tie between Pakistan and NK when NK was buying the nuke tech and selling missiles to Pakistan.

Whoever is going to be president in the next four years is going to have to deal with a nutcase NK leader who can put a nuke in California.

Think OT and Piq might want to reconsider that immigration angle? :roll:
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Re: 9/11 Report

Postby haggis » Thu Jul 29, 2004 9:01 am

Barf,

"Did you think I was making this stuff up?"
No, I think your timeline picks up where mine left off.

I just don't think that less than 30 days of "new signs of substantive cooperation in recent days" was going to reveal anything more than had been disclosed in the previous 8+ years the inspectors had already been there.

This discussion with you and others has led me to the conclusion that the whole issue of WMDs was, essentially, moot.

Whether policymakers and Americans supported or opposed the war effort was not determined by their conviction about the presence of weapons of mass destruction.

Those who supported the war, (me) in overwhelming numbers, believed there were multiple justifications for it.

Those who oppose the war, (you) in equally overwhelming numbers, weren't swayed by the WMD arguments.


Indeed, many of the opponents had no difficulty opposing the war while believing that Saddam possessed vast quantities of such weapons.

In Sep 2002, Sen. Kennedy said. "We have known for many years, that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." And yet a few weeks later he voted against authorizing the Iraq war.

Even our “ally,” French President Jacques Chirac, believed and stated Saddam had WMDs and still did everything in his power to block the war.

Were/are there WMDs or not? To borrow a phrase from Bill Murray from the movie “Meatballs”

” IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER!
:D

<small>[ 07-29-2004, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: Haggis ]</small>
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Re: 9/11 Report

Postby barfle » Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:12 am

Originally posted by Haggis:
I just don't think that less than 30 days of "new signs of substantive cooperation in recent days" was going to reveal anything more than had been disclosed in the previous 8+ years the inspectors had already been there.
I doubt that it would have found any WMD, that's for sure. But the scenario was us telling Iraq, "cooperate or else." They started to cooperate, and got "else."
This discussion with you and others has led me to the conclusion that the whole issue of WMDs was, essentially, moot.
It strikes me differently, and here's why. For the longest time, I felt Saddam Hussein had WMD, because he said so, he had used them against his own people, and he was being a shit to the inspectors. We started our saber rattling and convinced him to cooperate, and when the inspectors said they were getting cooperation, I saw no reason to prevent them from doing their job. The Bush administration clearly felt differently, which I most certainly do not comprehend. When you see evidence of a turn-around, why would you take steps to stop it from succeeding?

Whether policymakers and Americans supported or opposed the war effort was not determined by their conviction about the presence of weapons of mass destruction.

Those who supported the war, (me) in overwhelming numbers, believed there were multiple justifications for it.

Those who oppose the war, (you) in equally overwhelming numbers, weren't swayed by the WMD arguments.
I was also not swayed by arguments of ties to bin laden (a religious fanatic, while Saddam headed the most secular government in the region, including Israel), nor was I swayed by the fact that he was a vicious tyrant (while there are more vicious tyrants in power elsewhere). We know why George W. Bush had a major jones for Saddam, and I'm not saying the resentment was unjustified. But as I see the situation, the "official" reasons have either been shown to be in error (a polite way of saying "I think they lied to us") or contrary to the principles I thought the United States held dear (not starting an unprovoked war of agression).

Indeed, many of the opponents had no difficulty opposing the war while believing that Saddam possessed vast quantities of such weapons.

In Sep 2002, Sen. Kennedy said. "We have known for many years, that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." And yet a few weeks later he voted against authorizing the Iraq war.

Even our “ally,” French President Jacques Chirac, believed and stated Saddam had WMDs and still did everything in his power to block the war.
I'm the last person on this board to defend Ted Kennedy's ability to think about a problem and arrive at an intelligent decision. However, having a weapon and having the ability to use it 10,000 miles away are two different issues.

Were/are there WMDs or not? To borrow a phrase from Bill Murray from the movie “Meatballs”

” IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER!
:D
Not any more. Pandora's box is open.

I see the issue now as being "what can we do about our reputation in the world, what can we do to prevent terrorism by people who are not afraid to die for the cause of their revenge, and what can we do about getting our soldiers home so they can deal with threats from without?" I see us as faced with a choice of a war-monger or a flip-flopper. When, at the convention where he was nomimated, Bush said "They have not led, we will," he didn't really tell us where he would be leading us to. I, for one, don't like it one bit.
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Re: 9/11 Report

Postby Serenity » Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:08 pm

What can we do about our reputation in the world? What can we do to prevent terrorism by people who are not afraid to die for the cause of their revenge? What can we do about getting our soldiers home?

Easy...vote Bush out. He has had his chance. Put someone else in. This will tell the world we have voted him out of office. The terrorists will not stop though and whoever the new president is will have to deal with it also. The House and Senate are pretty much split 50/50 anyway.
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Re: 9/11 Report

Postby Nicole Marie » Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:22 pm

Haggis, from your earlier points. I understand that Bush did not start this be he's in charge. It's his responsibility. And I think he is doing a bad job at taking care of this situation.

And your point about: "Let China, Japan, SK and Russia handle that nutjob in charge, as long as NK doesn't attack us, why should we care?"

I'd buy that if NK did not have missles that could reach the US. They do and Bush wants to pull our troops out of SK where we can keep an eye on NK? It doesn't make sense. Keep the troops, keep an eye on NK and let China, Japan, SK and Russia handle negotionation. (Although I don't trust China or Russia. China has massive human rights violations. And Russia loves to sell their old nukes to whomever. I can not see them being fair in a situation involving people and nukes.)
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Re: 9/11 Report

Postby barfle » Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:35 pm

Serenity, I don't believe it's all as simple as voting Bush out. If that were the case, I would have come out in support of Kerry, which I have not. That may give us a little bit of our respect (as compared to fear) back, but he supports the invasion, and is one of those members of congress I have condemned for not having the courage to either declare war or not, instead of voting to turn the job over to the executive branch.

My problem with Kerry is the old one about the SOB you know compared to the SOB you don't know. I know Kerry has said A and done B enough times that he can't help but be the one I don't know.

The grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence.
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Re: 9/11 Report

Postby Serenity » Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:49 pm

I agree with you. It is simplistic but it gives you the satisfaction of saying "I did something to help get rid of him".
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Re: 9/11 Report

Postby haggis » Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:53 pm

Nicole,

My comments about leaving them to handle it kind of equates to China, Russia, SK, and Japan having to keep their own damn neighborhood clean and quit relying on the U.S. to pick up after them. China has a lot more influence over NK than they want the rest of the world to realize, and they have their finger on the NK pulse.

If they ever suspected that NK was going to attack the U.S. with nukes they would have to come down on the NK. The Chinese are very aware how much a Polaris will screw up the local eco system for a half-life of 1,000 years.

My desire to remove the U.S. troops from their current location is because all those Americans and their families are well within artillery and rocket range of NK and, more importantly, north of the Han River in Seoul.

If NK ever goes stupid and attacks, the SKs blow all the bridges on the Han River immediately to keep the North from having easy access to the center of the Peninsular. It’s been in the plans since the 50’s and just about every invasion scenario for the past 50’s years assumes the North will get at least to the Han river regardless of the defenses thrown up. That’s why successive administrations have left those G.I.s on the DMZ; it might sound cynical but they were always meant to be a large enough “trip wire” that their deaths and captures would ensure an overwhelming military response from the United States.

And avoiding that response was one of the reasons the North has stayed North of the DMZ.

And that was all well and fine in the 50's and 60's.

But starting in the 70's and up into today, we started letting families accompany those G.I.s and today we have between 100,000 - 150,000 American citizens there, mostly living north of the Han River.

I believe that has altered the equations to such a degree that I think we need to evaluate our need to be there.

All the airports and major evacuation routes are south of the Han River. The toll of American civilian deaths (20-30,000?) not even counting the G.I.s would be so large and so grievous I fear that any president would be hard pressed to authorize a retaliatory nuclear strike on NK.

I believe the strategies of the 50’s and 60’s are no longer valid and I want to pull them out, even to the far south of SK. Then that particular “tripwire” is eliminated and brings saner options to the table.

Brinksmanship with the old Soviet Union had rules, if nothing more than a shared respect for human life. Brinksmanship in this century won’t be so “civilized.”

As always, I enjoy sharing opinions and counter opinions with you.
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