The Unnecessary War

[haggis]

RC,

"So Haggis...I'd be interested to know why you are not reacting to the most recent posts the way you did to NvB?"

Three reasons

1. I got my head handed to me by people whose opinions muchly matter to me and,

2. Didn't read them until this morning, and

3. I have decided to ignore them.

Yes, they are all screedy and the onset of their appearance does not inspire confidence in the innocence of the coincidence; I shall sit this one out.

[RC]

I'm so sorry to hear that about the head handing thing.

I'm thinkin I should have let it pass as well, it's look less coincidental to me as well.

[OperaTenor]

Hi Haggis,

I hope you don't think I was one of the "head-handers".
I was just trying to be funny.
I think you know I value your thoughts and opinions, especially with regards to the war on terror and the Middle East situation.

Even if you are wrong.

[haggis]

OT,

"I hope you don't think I was one of the "head-handers"."

Jeez, don't you listen?
"...by people whose opinions muchly matter to me"

and

"Even if you are wrong"

If I had a nickel for every time I’ve been wrong I’d have, lessee, 2.5¢

(Ed. “2.5¢??”

Yeah, well, ya see one time I thought I was wrong and said so, but then it turned out I’d been right all along!

Ed. “So much for humility”

Hey, I’m very proud of my humility!)

<small>[ 10-06-2004, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: Haggis ]</small>

[OperaTenor]

Whew!

I feel much better now.........

....wait....

[lhuffman]

Originally posted by TheRefinedGarg:
1. Crazy? It's pretty easy, since you can't support our troops, and
be against their cause at the same time.
2. It is not possible to bring all soldiers home alive in a war. To hope for that
is a pipedream and will lead to disappointment.

I sure am glad that our Forefathers didn't acquire a "give up" attitude,
even though they lost 4,435 men (accounted for) during the American Revolution.

I find you to be sadly lacking in rational thought if you think that to support our troops has to equate with supporting the cause. There are plenty of those very troops who do not even believe in the cause, they are following orders. I support our troops because I support our nation. I want our nation to be the best it can be and if military action is required to defend our nation then I am all in favor of a swift and strong military solution. But I do not support any war or conflict that is not in defense of our nation...though I support any troops who are m isused in such efforts. I certainly do not believe our military should be the police of the world, and if it is, Iraq was low on the list of governments and nations that need to be dealt with.

As for bringing home troops alive? Well, they can be kept alive by not sending them to fight in wars that we have no business starting now in the first place, can't they?

Our forefathers? I can't believe you went there. Yes, our forefathers faught when all was against them. They were almost certain to be defeated and yet they continued to fight FOR THEIR FREEDOM. THEIR FREEDOM. Not to depose some leader in another part of the world. Their own freedom. And the sacrifice to obtain that freedom is what has made our country so fierce in defending that freedom. The blood spilled was spilled to bring about a free country for those fighting.

Iraq needs some 'forefathers' to stand tall and take the reigns and provide freedom if that is what their people want. Having it handed to them by us, especially when most of the people do not want us there, is not what they need and certainly not something we need.

As for WWII...well Germany and Japan had attacked and invaded many countries and were a bonefide threat to the world. Not just a threat, they were in reality a danger. Once again, comparing Iraq to Nazi Germany is a joke, and therefore comparing our nations actions then to now is a joke.

But that is what people who support this war do. I am sure Bush sees himself as a Roosevelt. He is not. Roosevelt defended nations against a rampaging terror. He stopped that advance and then, with our allies, he mounted an invasion that freed nations and beat the offending nation back and into submission. Bush attacked a country that had no way to defend itself against us and posed no threat to us or our interests. We are the invader. We are not freeing nations we are occupying a nation.

Now we are being attacked by people who want us out of their country. These people are doing exactly what americans would do if a nation invaded and occupied us. And if you say, 'but we are just helping them', well maybe you should rethink that. What we may see as help, they see as aggression. now they just want us gone, and it is not going to stop. And all of the pro-bush-war people seem content to stay there and give them our help by-god whether they want it or not.

The fact that you equate this war to just and noble causes like our war for independence and WWII, tells me that you really do not know history at all. You also do not understand what supporting our troops is. I was an officer in the Navy. I had 'troops' (though I call them sailors) under me and I know what it is like to lead them on a day to day basis, even in conflict. Troops do not believe in a cause they follow orders. That simple. So supporting them has nothing to do with the cause either. They fight for america, that is the cause. Our troops can be used for good or for bad...and they will do the same thing, fight for america and follow orders. It is up to us, the people, to make sure our leaders use those troops wisely and in worthwhile situations. Situations where spilling american blood can be justified.

[mmichaelson]

Larry, I can understand his equating this war with Iraq on a base level.
WWII happened at a time in our history when we were our most isolationist as a country. We waited and watched and stayed out of world affairs until we were attacked by Japan and thus ushered into the war. Old timers, (my grandparents and great-grandparents) still call those wars "European Wars" and "Great Wars".

I can get that Garg is equating the waiting until we're attacked and then fighting back. We were attacked September 11, albeit not by Iraq. If Garg is equating the fact that we were attacked and are now on the offensive and that Iraq posed a grave danger (as Bush stated in his debate position) then I can credit him some credence with that statement. There is a slight parallel between the two.
When Hitler first took over Germany and began to expand, the world didn't mind at first. In fact, many Americans and British applauded his ideas. He was an amazing orator, and at first his ideas were not too radical to not appeal to the masses in general. It was only later on, after the first annexation of Czechoslovakia that the world really became leary of him. No one really threw too much of a fit after that first annexation of "Rhineland" since it was "traditional German lands". It was later, after he started claiming more and more and more that people started to worry and take notice.

Garg sees the parallel, slight but there.

I agree that it is a stretch, just as comparing our situation now with that of the Vietnam era is a stretch.

[barfle]

Originally posted by LHuffman:
And if you say, 'but we are just helping them', well maybe you should rethink that. What we may see as help, they see as aggression. now they just want us gone, and it is not going to stop. And all of the pro-bush-war people seem content to stay there and give them our help by-god whether they want it or not.

I'm reminded of the old joke, "Hello. We're from the government and we're here to help." It's a sure sign that you will be worse off when they leave.

[Shapley]

I think it is only fair to point out that Hitler didn't attack us, either.

[mmichaelson]

"And all of the pro-bush-war people seem content to stay there and give them our help by-god whether they want it or not. "

This is a bit harsh, not to mention narrow-minded.

You make those of us on the bbb.com who DO support Bush feel as if we can't or shouldn't speak up. Please do not say "All" when "all" does NOT apply to everyone.

Even if we support Bush and were for deposing Saddam Hussein, (and even if you're not for that) it's not like we can just pull all of our troops out of the area and evacuate. If we were to do that, chaos would reign for sure. Now that we're there, we have to follow through, helping the Iraqis to set up a nation that they choose to set up. (I'm for promoting democracy, but if that is not what they vote for in a FAIR election, then so be it).

So see, not all of us who support Bush are as narrow-minded or ignorant as you seem to think. Also, I for one, do not try to belittle others for expressing their opinions and beliefs. And I try not to call people ignorant in not so many words.

I feel that the forms should be an open place for us to debate and express what we wish. We will likely never change anyone else's opinion, but it only fair to see all sides of the argument, even when you do not agree.

So if you do not agree, you shouldn't belittle the people you do not agree with, that only makes YOU the narrow-minded person. Just present your arguments as well as you can and appreciate the fact that we have the freedom to agree and disagree without fear of reaction.

[mmichaelson]

Darn it. . .stupid fingers strike again! That should have been "forums" not "forms should be".

Argh

[Shapley]

RE:They were almost certain to be defeated and yet they continued to fight FOR THEIR FREEDOM. THEIR FREEDOM. Not to depose some leader in another part of the world. Their own freedom. And the sacrifice to obtain that freedom is what has made our country so fierce in defending that freedom. The blood spilled was spilled to bring about a free country for those fighting.

But what of the French and German soldiers that fought there, or were we just passing the "global test"?

Of course, since the French fought on our side and the Germans fought against us, I guess we failed that global test.

[TheRefinedGarg]

Originally posted by RC:
Hey Garg, welcome - beautiful family!

I'm having difficulty getting my mind around several things you are posting and I wonder if you would humor me. I find that it is easiest for us simple folk to digest big statements in little pieces so forgive me if I miss the context of some of the below quotes as I dissect:

Originally posted by LHuffman:

So I guess I would ask you a couple of questions then....Do you
think that we can turn Iraq into a democracy? If so, on what basis?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I do, on the basis of their own judgment. Whether or not we give them a
democracy will not be our accomplishment. Whatever style of government they choose
is fine with me.

and then again, with the next quote, I get the impression that you might be naive (as most of us were pre-9/11 and Iraq), about how Islam effects their countries political culture:

Do you know of any other islamic nation who has opted for democracy?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No.

OK, so here is my point; Frequently, when citizens in Arab/Muslim countries have the option of choosing, they specifically choose someone like Ayatolla Kahmenei who purport to be divinely appointed. That is part of the Muslim faith. He is no sweetheart! Just today Iran is bragging about having a missile capacity to strike southern Europe.

AND, when the US tries to meddle, we end up with people like Hussein (whom we supported). He is no sweetheart. Or, a Sadat who will be assasinated because he wasn't their choice!

Another example: trying to tell the Vietnamese what type of government they should have - well, we know how that went. Unfortunately, we ended up doing one of these:

To quit before victory is a dishonor to those that have GIVEN their lives for their country, fighting for a cause they believe in, or else they wouldn't be there.

Also, on that same specific quote, I wouldn't necessarily say that all the troops are fighting for a cause they believe in.

Their cause may be honoring their country and they may fight and still think the battle itself is wrong. To pretend that you honor something for the sake of honoring the fatherland in spite of what you believe is moral is more discgraceful than protesting...speaking of Nazi Germany. Do you suppose those lads fighting for Germany all thought the Jews deserved the halocaust?

Or they may have signed up for the education $$ and accidentally ended up in Iraq. Either way, they are fighting in the name of my country and I respect that.

More later.

Thank you for the compliment. I believe that you have taken a few things out of context, and you left our some of my words, but we will simply have to disagree, and as far as anyone "accidentally" ending up in Iraq, there is no such thing.

I have never been in the military, sorrowfully enough, because of my debilitating weight condition(which I am solving, but you know that if you went to my site ), but I am sure that when you sign up for the military, that you might have a notion that you could end up getting shot at.

I do agree and pray for our troops to be safe and come home soon, but not until the job is done there, or all is for naught

and as far as what Islam does to other countries, I wouldn't be too quick to judge, lest we be judged on the extremists organizations here (i.e. KKK, Skinheads, etc), which most are based in Christianity, or claim some form of it. We wouldn't want to forget all the atrocities committed during the Dark Ages as well, and All of Europe was Christian based.

I know I wouldn't want a foreigner judging me by the actions of a few. Peace to you and May the Lord Bless.

[TheRefinedGarg]

Originally posted by RC:
Hey Garg, welcome - beautiful family!

I'm having difficulty getting my mind around several things you are posting and I wonder if you would humor me. I find that it is easiest for us simple folk to digest big statements in little pieces so forgive me if I miss the context of some of the below quotes as I dissect:

Originally posted by LHuffman:

So I guess I would ask you a couple of questions then....Do you
think that we can turn Iraq into a democracy? If so, on what basis?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I do, on the basis of their own judgment. Whether or not we give them a
democracy will not be our accomplishment. Whatever style of government they choose
is fine with me.

and then again, with the next quote, I get the impression that you might be naive (as most of us were pre-9/11 and Iraq), about how Islam effects their countries political culture:

Do you know of any other islamic nation who has opted for democracy?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No.

OK, so here is my point; Frequently, when citizens in Arab/Muslim countries have the option of choosing, they specifically choose someone like Ayatolla Kahmenei who purport to be divinely appointed. That is part of the Muslim faith. He is no sweetheart! Just today Iran is bragging about having a missile capacity to strike southern Europe.

AND, when the US tries to meddle, we end up with people like Hussein (whom we supported). He is no sweetheart. Or, a Sadat who will be assasinated because he wasn't their choice!

Another example: trying to tell the Vietnamese what type of government they should have - well, we know how that went. Unfortunately, we ended up doing one of these:

To quit before victory is a dishonor to those that have GIVEN their lives for their country, fighting for a cause they believe in, or else they wouldn't be there.

Also, on that same specific quote, I wouldn't necessarily say that all the troops are fighting for a cause they believe in.

Their cause may be honoring their country and they may fight and still think the battle itself is wrong. To pretend that you honor something for the sake of honoring the fatherland in spite of what you believe is moral is more discgraceful than protesting...speaking of Nazi Germany. Do you suppose those lads fighting for Germany all thought the Jews deserved the halocaust?

Or they may have signed up for the education $$ and accidentally ended up in Iraq. Either way, they are fighting in the name of my country and I respect that.

More later.

Thank you for the compliment. I believe that you have taken a few things out of context, and you left our some of my words, but we will simply have to disagree, and as far as anyone "accidentally" ending up in Iraq, there is no such thing.

I have never been in the military, sorrowfully enough, because of my debilitating weight condition(which I am solving, but you know that if you went to my site ), but I am sure that when you sign up for the military, that you might have a notion that you could end up getting shot at.

I do agree and pray for our troops to be safe and come home soon, but not until the job is done there, or all is for naught

and as far as what Islam does to other countries, I wouldn't be too quick to judge, lest we be judged on the extremists organizations here (i.e. KKK, Skinheads, etc), which most are based in Christianity, or claim some form of it. We wouldn't want to forget all the atrocities committed during the Dark Ages as well, and All of Europe was Christian based.

I know I wouldn't want a foreigner judging me by the actions of a few. Peace to you and May the Lord Bless.

[Serenity]

HIJACK!
The presidential and vice-presidential races should be totally separate!

Kerry/Cheney 2004!

[Serenity]

So what happened to Iraqi Balboa in Olympic boxing?

[lhuffman]

Well, so much to address. And to all, I do not mean to come off as harsh as it may seem. I made a statement and was told that because I did not support the cause, that I did not support the troops, and that certainly set my mood.

Yes, Hitler had been attacking us. He sunk numerous vessels that we were using to aid Brittain. We also had learned that he was trying to coerce Mexico into fighting against us.

One other reason we cannot compare the two...Hitler was not under our scrutiny. Saddam was. And...when Saddam had his strongest army, he was still no match for us at all, in an open military conflict. This time around, he had a shade of what he had before. Hitler had the strongest and most experienced army on the planet at the time, quite capable of defeating any other nation head to head, including us at the beginning of the war.

And any comparison of Hitler and Saddam is just unfounded. It is like saying that I am a golfer just like Tiger Woods. Just because I can get out on the course and hit the ball does not make me like Tiger. Hitler would never have allowed the first gulf war to occur. He would have seduced us with treatise and lulled us into complaceny...Saddam called out the most powerful nation on the planet and lost all he had...twice. No, not Hitler.

The question of the French and Germans during the American revolution...well, once again a history lesson is in order. But first, the statement I was replying to had to do directly with 'what if our forefathers had given up'. Not the french or germans who were there. The reason is simple, they were fighting for their own freedom. The french joined us, quite simply, because they hated the british and never backed away from a chance to fight them...and they waited until the tide had begun to turn before they joined. Interesting to note that some of the very people they helped turned around and consulted on how to overthrow the french government later. The germans who faught did so as mercenaries and did so on both sides, but mostly for the british.

And another point...most 'old european' nations saw the new world as a place to own. Keeping one of their enemies from owning some of America was of national interest to other european nations. The French saw a chance to help wrest a colony from Brittain...one that had played a part in a war just a decade earlier that they lost...and they jumped at the chance. Was completely opportunistic on their part. Oh sure, they helped us win, but their motives were not altruistic.

Hey, who says a military history minor does not come in handy.

As for democracies in the middle-east, I thought I said successful. Sadat was assasinated, was he not? Egypt has been plagued with bloody theocratic led insurgencies ever since. Not a very good example at all. In fact, it kind of proves my point about the region.

I see it like this...religion and politics are so much a like. Because of culture and tradition, what is good for one group of people may not be good for another. Just like we would not want to see religion forced on anyone in this day and age...so we should feel the same about politics.

Our nation was in gestation for a long time. Many great men lived and died without the kind of freedom we have now, in order to shape the minds that came together and founded this country. Without Locke and Hobbes, there was no Jefferson, Adams or Madison. Without those men, there was no U.S. as we know it. It was not forced on anyone. Our people did not take up arms the minute they felt oppressed. The colonies suffered under British rule far longer than Saddam has been alive. It took the right sequence of events with the right men to not only lead the revolt, but to have the sense to then turn their revolt into a positive and come up with what we have now. And even that path was not perfect, nor has it been. We have been able to keep this republic because we have the example and culture that was shaped over time.

The reason I went through all of that, is because we seem to think we can just invade and drop what we have on others and they will have the same. We are confused when they do not seem to appreciate it. They cannot appreciate it. They have not culturally gotten to the point where they, as a nation, can see it. Of course I would be in favor of giving a constitutional republic to every nation on the planet. The fact is, it is not something that can be given. It has to be desired and forged by the very people who are going to live it. Our founding fathers learned that with France. They thought all they had to do was package what we did up and give it to the french. Oh, there was a revolution, but before they knew it, Napoleon had control and France never did obtain the government we tried to give them.

[RC]

Larry,

Regarding Egypt/Sadat,

me: AND, when the US tries to meddle, we end up with people like Hussein (whom we supported). He is no sweetheart. Or, a Sadat who will be assasinated because he wasn't their choice!

I was actually pointing out that there is only one country that even approached democracy and that too is a mess.

Also, thanks:

And to all, I do not mean to come off as harsh as it may seem.

very gracious. We all do that, (except Marye, who is Canadian ).

[RC]

Originally posted by Garg: and as far as what Islam does to other countries, I wouldn't be too quick to judge, lest we be judged on the extremists organizations here (i.e. KKK, Skinheads, etc),

Not sure how you got that out of what I posted.

The thing about Muslim leaders being beleived divinely appointed is fact and not at all judgemental. The only problem with that is that it makes democracy impractical. If a leader is beleived to have divine right, you must follow. The same can and has happened in Christianity.

There are other obsticals in Islam that make capitalism extremely difficult too.

The fact that WE think they would all be better off living like the western world,(democracy/capitalism), is totally ludicrous and irreconcilable to many devout Muslims. That does not make them wrong.

The confrontation between the worlds is inevitable since we are more and more dependent on their oil and they are more and more eager to sell it.

Where DO "extremists" come from? I KNOW you all asked yourselves after 9/11 what bred that mentality.

We are balancing on the very thin and precarious hegemony tightrope. IMO of course.

<small>[ 10-07-2004, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: RC ]</small>

[mmichaelson]

L:
I think we'll have to agree to disagree about comparing dictators. My specialty is European History and I can see some thin parallels.

Thanks for the apology as coming across harsh. I know we all get caught up in our feelings.

Welcome to the board, I look forward to interesting conversations with another history major!