Beheading!

[OperaTenor]

The terrorist/fundamental extremist/wackos are beheading hostages again, this time allegedly to try to get us to release female muslims we're holding. We can't cave in to these demands, and these crimes are obviously intolerable.

What's the appropriate response?

I have an opinion, but I'd like to know what you all think(especially Haggis).

[shostakovich]

In the words of the sage, "We can't cave in to these demands, and these crimes are obviously intolerable".

We should not even give the bastards air time. If they were ignored completely, their barbarous acts would be TOTALLY pointless.
Shos

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

This latest kidnap-and-behead wrinkle in the whole terrorist thing is appalling. We cannot and must not ever accede to their demands; this would only prove to them that this tactic works. I believe we're probably unanimous on this point.

As for an appropriate response, I don't know. Proportionate we might manage. We need to send these terrorists to explain their misdeeds to Allah. Humanely. Beheading would work - can we do that? I haven't worked out the details of accurately acquiring custody of the right guys, though. Let me give it some thought.

[mmichaelson]

Ditto on all counts. . .have to think about a solution. . .

[barfle]

This one is a tough question, particularly since I agree in general with the complaints of the monsters who are committing these vile acts. By this I do not in any sense condone the deliberate and barbaric taking of the lives of innocents.

I have felt since day one that we should simply pack up and get out. Every day we spend in Iraq does more damage to both Iraq and the US. But we need to somehow make sure that the pullout is NOT the result of terrorism. Of course, we're not pulling out at any time in the foreseeable future, so there's no risk of anyone taking my advice.

When someone in the US commits such a foul deed, we do what we can to track them down, try, arrest, and punish them appropriately. I don't know if we have the manpower to do that in Iraq, but I suspect not.

It's time for plan B: spies, covert actions, and just a little bit of preventative house cleaning.

[rwcrooks]

I agree that we cannot give in to the terrorists and that punishment must be meted out.

I also wonder about civilians who voluntarily go into a place like Iraq and are fully aware that they are targets for these murderers and have the means to leave the country on a daily basis, yet stay.

[lliam]

I'd have thought the Ghurkha’s would have sorted these terrorists out by now.. Especially after executing 11 of their country folk last week.

Ghurkha Khukuri

http://bastardsinc.blogs.com/bastardsinc/images/palas_khuk-thumb.jpg


A brief history of one of the world's most feared knives, the Nepalese khukuri. The current utility knife of the British, it is said that the blade may only be drawn, and then put away after drawing blood. Consequently, most Ghurkha soldiers have fingers that look like butcher's chopping blocks. This vicious looking knife would easily separate your head from your body, with no problems whatsoever. The knife would also look good mounted in an Iraqi "insurgent". It more than likely has been in Basra.
The Ghurkhas have loyally fought in nearly all of the world's major wars for 186 years and have earned Britain's highest service honours. They have won 13 Victoria Crosses, along with other important military awards, more than any other single troop in the army. No country has produced soldiers of such renown as the Ghurkhas. The appellation of Ghurkhas - By now the other name for Valour, courage, Steadfastness, Loyalty, Neutrality and Impartiality come from the Gorkha, a small hilly town located in west central Nepal.

[haggis]

"This one is a tough question, particularly since I agree in general with the complaints of the monsters who are committing these vile acts. "

and those complaints you agree with would be...?

[RC]

We should not even give the bastards air time.

As for an appropriate response, I don't know. Proportionate we might manage.

and punish them appropriately.

punishment must be meted out.

Punish: 1. To subject to a penalty for an offense, sin, or fault.
2. To inflict a penalty for (an offense).

OK, I'm going to totally surprise you all. Or maybe not...

You can't possibly imagine yourself in these guys shoes can you?

Can you in any way imagine yourself lobbing off another human beings head and sending their families into a tailspin, changing their story forever - with what to gain...???

So what do you think "punishment" is going to do?

Punishment works for people like you.

There comes a time when understanding is moot.

Breath, hold, squeeze and move on. No muss, no fuss, no press, no hoopla.

IMHO

And yes barfle, we're screwing up in Iraq. In this particular scenario, doesn't matter.
IMHO
What the heck do I know.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

RC, I'm not sure I understand what your point is? Are you suggesting that there's nothing to be done about random murder, so we should just pretend we don't know about it? Or did I misunderstand?

There is no possible retribution or atonement that would balance kidnapping-and-murder-of-the-innocent as a blackmail tactic. I would simply like to see future blackmail-by-murder discouraged. Firmly.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Um, looking back I see that barfle already outlined a plan B. That's probably the best bet.

[OperaTenor]

Originally posted by Selma in San Diego:
I would simply like to see future blackmail-by-murder discouraged. Firmly.

Yes, but what will the wackos understand? What keeps coming to mind is: "Okay, fine. You behead one more hostage, and we behead every person we have detained!"

Not a palatable solution on our end, is it? Starting with the problems of due process in the case of these detainees, and going all the way through general principle, our society doesn't have what it takes(whether that's a good or bad thing) to make, let alone follow through with that kind of threat. However, I feel that's the only kind of negotiation those guys'll ever understand, and, until something of that magnitude happens, we will be forever plagued by this terrorism. We will continue to have a reputation as a country that can be threatened.



WSY,H?

[RC]

Selma: Are you suggesting that there's nothing to be done about random murder, so we should just pretend we don't know about it?

You did misunderstand.

I agree with Shos regarding the point of "air time", but I would go further.

"Breath, hold, squeeze" means, when you are ready to fire and you want to be sure to have good aim, you take a breath, hold it for a second, and squeeze the trigger. It is a matter of hitting the target and not one of angry retribution or punishment.

Neither they nor any potential copy cats will understand "punishment" the way you do - it will have no effect.

Back when I believed the death penalty had merit, that was the reasoning.

IMO, the best way to counter terrorism is a calm, methodical removal of each individual perpetrator. After all, they are actually counting on our sense of moral outrage to get whatever they want.

I so totally agree with barfle re:

It's time for plan B: spies, covert actions, and just a little bit of preventative house cleaning.

Concurrently, we need to examine our own barbary. Some inhuman terrorists atrocities does not excuse nor diminish our own.

[RC]

OT: "Okay, fine. You behead one more hostage, and we behead every person we have detained!"

I don't think that would do anything but make them more bloodthirsty and make us less human on the way.

I think thats how Northern Ireland manages to stoke the seemingly eternal fires.

An eye for an eye until everyone is blind.

[barfle]

Originally posted by Haggis:
"This one is a tough question, particularly since I agree in general with the complaints of the monsters who are committing these vile acts. "

and those complaints you agree with would be...?

Their country was the subject of an unprovoked, unwanted, and illegal invasion by a foreign power intent on changing their way of life to be more like ours.

That does not justify these acts against innocents, but I like to think I would be running a major insurgency against occupying foreign troops if the situation were reversed. How about you?

<small>[ 09-23-2004, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: barfle ]</small>

[RC]

The country was the subject of an unprovoked and illegal invasion by a foreign power intent on changing our way of life to be more like theirs.

That does not justify these acts against innocents, but I like to think I would be running a major insurgency against occupying foreign troops if the situation were reversed. How about you?

from the audience:

I can see barfle strapping himself in for the wild ride...

[Shapley]

Barfle,

How do you explain the taking of French hostages? Their demands call for ending the head scarf ban, or a cash equivalent.

V/R
Shapley

[barfle]

Originally posted by RC:
I can see barfle strapping himself in for the wild ride...

OK, let's put the shoe on the other foot, as I suggested. The scenario is that the government has been destroyed, and replaced by people whose morals you find incomprehensible, they write with a strange indecipherable alphabet, they live with a very restrictive sexual code, their business ethics are dubious, and they say they're here to help.

No doubt, some will find their take-over to be preferrable to the libertine ways we've grown accustomed to, but most of us tend to believe in the Constitution and the freedoms it has protected for centuries.

Not only would I be highly outraged, I would do what I could to show them that outrage. I would be as vicious and nasty as I could figure out how to be, and set up as many appointments between the invaders and their makers as I could. That's a lot different than grabbing Jacques, Heinrich, or even Mustafah off the street and brutally murdering him and sending the movie to his family.

[barfle]

Originally posted by Shapley:
Barfle,

How do you explain the taking of French hostages? Their demands call for ending the head scarf ban, or a cash equivalent.

V/R
Shapley

I make no attempt to explain the taking of civilian hostages by barbarians. Note that my post specifically referred to invading troops.

[Marye]

Originally posted by Shapley:
How do you explain the taking of French hostages? Their demands call for ending the head scarf ban, or a cash equivalent.
Shapley

I think the situation lends itself to these outrages even more. Like copycat killers... the opportunity is there and the cameras are rolling ...

I feel sick to my stomach for the family of the British Hostage who is begging for his life and the British Government's response is: "it really is shame but we are not negotiating". I feel sick for the families of the American Hostages whose innocent family member's last hours of life were horror and filmed for the world to see. Sleep? Never again, I would think.

I for one cannot say "under no circumstances should we give in to these demands".. if it were my brother or my father or my partner, I would beg my government to save my family as I want your government to save yours.

I cannot help but weep for humanity.