Beheading!

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Re: Beheading!

Postby haggis » Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:41 am

Barfle,

” Their country was the subject of an unprovoked, unwanted, and illegal invasion by a foreign power intent on changing their way of life to be more like ours.”


So, in your opinion these murders are being committed by the doctors, engineers, taxi drivers, street cleaners, lawyers, students, desk clerks, mailmen, bus drivers, fruit vendors, plumbers, IT managers, nurses, housewives et al yearning for Saddam return? These killing are their way of demanding a return of their favorite dictator?

“Yes, we know he was brutal but at least the trains ran on time”


Do you really believe that? Because if you look at what you wrote that’s what you are saying, implicitly if not complicitly.

And what about the targeting and killing of Iraqis by (presumably) Iraqis? How does your equation account for that? Annoyed people who don’t like policemen?

Personally, I believe these murders are exactly what they seem, a group hard-core Baath (and Sunni-dominated) holdouts deciding their route to personal survival -- and possible track back to power in Baghdad -- is not just relentlessly savage violence, but relentlessly savage violence that is video taped and shown to the world.

The biggest mistake the Iraq coalition made was underestimating the power of criminal arrogance. That's a mistake we Americans make repeatedly -- whether the thug is Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam, Osama bin Laden or one of our own mob chieftains like John Gotti or Al Capone.

The Baath thugs are attempting to manipulate the U.S. political cycle. If they continue to murder, they believe America will wilt and leave the new Iraqi government in the lurch.

This conviction of American impotence, that we will cut and run, is a direct legacy running back to the U.S. Marines in Teheran being ordered not to resist the take over of the American Embassy. Every presidential administration since, until Bush 43, caved in somewhere along the way and reinforced the image that we are a paper tiger.

Your and my individual differences on this issue couldn’t be starker.

I fear a Kerry administration would leave Iraq in the lurch and you hope it will.

<small>[ 09-23-2004, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Haggis ]</small>
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Re: Beheading!

Postby Shapley » Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:15 pm

RE:And what about the targeting and killing of Iraqis by (presumably) Iraqis? How does your equation account for that? Annoyed people who don’t like policemen?

I should point out that there seem to be a lot more people signing up to be policemen than there are people trying to blow them up. I view that as a positive sign.
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Re: Beheading!

Postby OperaTenor » Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:24 pm

My.

We all have vastly differing perspectives on this, and only one person has offered a solution.

Pulling out of Iraq, now that we've started this evolution, would be an irresponsible tragedy on many levels, and would leave the US with the international credibility of a pissant.

There must be a way to condition these luatics into believeing these senseless atrocities they're committing are either useless or counterproductive.

In a way, I think Shos has had the most practical solution yet: Ignore them. Get them to understand no one is listening. However, there isn't enough cooperation in the international media to get them all to agree not to publicize these acts.

Does anyone know how the majority of Iraqis feel about it? And what is Iraq doing to solve the problem, specifically?

<small>[ 09-23-2004, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>
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Re: Beheading!

Postby barfle » Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:12 pm

Originally posted by Haggis:
So, in your opinion these murders are being committed by the doctors, engineers, taxi drivers, street cleaners, lawyers, students, desk clerks, mailmen, bus drivers, fruit vendors, plumbers, IT managers, nurses, housewives et al yearning for Saddam return? These killing are their way of demanding a return of their favorite dictator?
No, and I would appreciate it if you would stop putting your words in my mouth.

Originally posted by Haggis:
Do you really believe that? Because if you look at what you wrote that’s what you are saying, implicitly if not complicitly.
My words stand by themselves. If you want to interpret them as having sympathy for barbarians, then you aren't reading very clearly. I don't know how to prevent that beyond pointing out your mistakes. You appear to have stopped reading before the end of the post.

Originally posted by Haggis:
And what about the targeting and killing of Iraqis by (presumably) Iraqis? How does your equation account for that? Annoyed people who don’t like policemen?
I'm not there and I haven't talked to any of them, but hypothetically, I can understand the feelings of ordinary citizens who see their police being run by an invading horde of infidels.

Originally posted by Haggis:
Personally, I believe these murders are exactly what they seem, a group hard-core Baath (and Sunni-dominated) holdouts deciding their route to personal survival -- and possible track back to power in Baghdad -- is not just relentlessly savage violence, but relentlessly savage violence that is video taped and shown to the world.
And what makes you think I feel any other way?

Originally posted by Haggis:
The Baath thugs are attempting to manipulate the U.S. political cycle. If they continue to murder, they believe America will wilt and leave the new Iraqi government in the lurch.
I can't say if they are right, but it has had the opposite effect on me.

Originally posted by Haggis:
Your and my individual differences on this issue couldn’t be starker.
No, what you read into my post that I did not write could not be in more contrast to your views.

Originally posted by Haggis:
I fear a Kerry administration would leave Iraq in the lurch and you hope it will.
This is a falsehood, and I would appreciate it if you would stop telling me my opinon. It's been posted for all to see, and you are clearly incorrect. I certainly oppose our presence in Iraq, for reasons I have made clear and that have not changed. However, we have opened up a can of worms that needs our maximum effort to close up. Even though I doubt our ability to do that without partitioning up the country into its ethnic regions (which will NOT please the Turks), we really should change our history of leaving huge messes in our wake.

And now here's what your opinion appears to be. Apparently, you feel that any invading horde of United States troops should be met with an instant surrender of all native forces, and the immediate resignation of all government officials, just because we are, by our own definition, the "good guys." I say this because you haven't made any indication that you would oppose an invasion of your home.
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Re: Beheading!

Postby Serenity » Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:13 pm

Let's send them some charity and gifts from America! Some nice pork products like head cheese sandwiches and pickled pig feet for the hungry. Oh, what are some of those things that Saddam was fond of.....hot dogs, Yankees caps? We can send different versions of their holy book for distribution, with some nice artful graffitti and pull out centerfolds posters. We can initiate a writing program in prison and have the people in prison write to their penpals in Iraq. Or souvenirs from Cuba, how about replica heads of detainees but shrunken the voodoo way. We can send them literature - Truly Tasteless Jokes for fundamentalists. If it doesn't exist we can make it up. What else could possibly piss them off? Oh yeah we could taunt or pretend to baptize them on TV for the world to see.

<small>[ 09-23-2004, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: Serenity ]</small>
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Re: Beheading!

Postby haggis » Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:39 pm

OT,
No nice answers I’m afraid, I’m not sure there is any way to respond to them other than what we are doing, actively pursuing intelligence and trying to kill them when we find them, but that’s only short range.

Long range, well, take the Wahhabi money out of the madrassas and, more importantly, out of the U.S. Too many American Mosques have Saudi Inmans paid with Saudi money.

I hear all the time that the religion of Islam has been hijacked by the radicals, but I don’t hear any large groups of Muslim denouncing these crimes either and that worries me more than anything else.

Where is the Muslim equivalent of Martin Luther King Jr. in all this?

Why aren’t “moderate” Muslim communities (starting with our own in the U.S.) decrying these crimes and trying to preach the moderate message?

And no, any denouncement that contains the word “but” in it is not a denouncement, it is a disguised justification.

Too many Americans are starting to think that the true enemy here is Islam and I don’t see enough from the Muslim world to dissuade that thought.

As I said before, terrorists cannot be appeased, negotiated with, reasoned with, or have their attention deflected elsewhere as a matter of any governmental policy: the only appropriate governmental policy is direct confrontation, unambiguous condemnation and aggressive pursuit and elimination of terrorists and their accomplices and enablers.

Anything else is giving in to fear and wishful thinking.

If we pulled every G.I., diplomat, and naval vessel back to the U.S., if we abandoned all our allies, and forsake all of our commitments in the world, they will still come after us. The hate our ideas and our culture and will never tolerate those ideas that the consider anathema to all they hold dear.

We, as a country, are edging closer and closer to fighting a war, declared or otherwise, with Islam and that will only be averted when the majority of the Islamic world manage to wrest the religion out of the hands of the fanatics and put it back in the hands of those who cherish religious diversity.

They need to start soon.

Hussein Massawi, former leader of Hezbollah, summed it up very pithily:

"We are not fighting so that you will offer us something. We are fighting to eliminate you."
Given those stakes, do you doubt the winner in such an outcome?

Ending on a more positive not, I heard PM Allawi’s speech earlier today and was quite impressed.

Any one else hear it and have any thoughts?
Haggis

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Re: Beheading!

Postby piqaboo » Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:43 pm

Originally posted by RC:
Breath, hold, squeeze and move on. No muss, no fuss, no press, no hoopla.
I agree.

And bill their family for the bullet, a la the Chinese gov't.
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Re: Beheading!

Postby piqaboo » Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:00 pm

Muslim communities in San Diego have repeatedly denounced the terrorism in Iraq. These are the "moderate" communities Haggis referred to.

The SD UT runs articles on locals who return to the middle east to help in rebuild/recover/re-creation, and all too often, runs follow up articles when they are killed 'over there' (Iraq, Afghanistan).

Terrorist-fundamentalists are different from outraged citizens. And the nasty mix is well salted with opportunists (repeal headscarf ban or give us $$ instead! :eek: ).

Sidetracking - I think a headscarf ban,if one is truley in place, is stupid, meanspirited and in violation of US constitution. Yes, I know our constituion has no application 'over there', but we should be consistent in our beliefs. Did we or did the Iraqis institute this ban?
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Re: Beheading!

Postby OperaTenor » Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:07 pm

Originally posted by Haggis:

Where is the Muslim equivalent of Martin Luther King Jr. in all this?
Wasn't there a senior Shiite cleric in Iraq who recently demonstrated/led a march to protest the violence caused by the insurgents/terrorists? Whatever came of that? Why isn't his cause promoted more?
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Re: Beheading!

Postby haggis » Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:15 pm

"Sidetracking - I think a headscarf ban,if one is truley in place, is stupid, meanspirited and in violation of US constitution. Yes, I know our constituion has no application 'over there', but we should be consistent in our beliefs. Did we or did the Iraqis institute this ban?"

Piq, the only headscarf ban I'm aware of is in France.

Are you referring to another one?
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Re: Beheading!

Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:40 pm

I googled a bit on "ban on headscarfs", and got hits mentioning France several times, also Indonesia and Turkey. They all seemed to be regarding bans on overtly religious clothing in public schools. Apparently a girl can wear the hijab to the store, to the mosque, and on the bus but must remove it on school property.

There was no mention of any headwear bans in Iraq.
>^..^<
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Re: Beheading!

Postby shostakovich » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:46 pm

"I also wonder about civilians who voluntarily go into a place like Iraq and are fully aware that they are targets for these murderers and have the means to leave the country on a daily basis, yet stay."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is from a post several miles back. I believe the civilians are given obscenely large salaries to induce risk taking.
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Re: Beheading!

Postby RC » Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:53 am

Im pretty sure there is a ban on "headscarves" in schools in my area.
The impetus was to prevent gang related attire. I'm sure they were targeting bandana type scarves and do-rags but I doubt they make a distinction.
("zero tolerance" crap)

There are fewer than 1/2 of 1 percent of US residents claiming Islam as their religion and I don't know the demographics for my relatively small city but it hasn't made headlines.
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Re: Beheading!

Postby Marye » Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:36 am

I read that Britian is planning to bring home a third of its troops. And Poland is following suit. I think the mess in Iraq is worse than we can imagine and worse than some news agencies are letting on. Civil war is imminent. "Lebanon times ten".

I do not wish to offend you Haggis, but I think the new Prime Minister of Iraq's speech writer and Bush's are one and the same.
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Re: Beheading!

Postby haggis » Fri Sep 24, 2004 11:54 am

"I read that Britian is planning to bring home a third of its troops. And Poland is following suit."

Really? I didn't see that. Can't you post a link?


"I think the mess in Iraq is worse than we can imagine and worse than some news agencies are letting on."

Given the demonstrated dislike of President Bush by the press in general, I find it hard to believe they would pass up any incident that would make the situation in Iraq sound worse than it is.

I get emails almost every day from several friends in Iraq who express their frustration about the negative spin all the press gives on any story coming out of Iraq.

School are opens, buses are running, people are working the Iraqi military is building up people stand in line to apply to be policemen and there will be elections in January.

Sure there are problems, tough problems, but running away from them won't make them go away, as much as Barfle would like for us to do that.

The general consensus is that if the press continues to downplay the good news in Iraq and play up the bad, then people will believe it is a lost cause; apparently they've convinced you.

"I do not wish to offend you Haggis, but I think the new Prime Minister of Iraq's speech writer and Bush's are one and the same."

You didn't offend me, but you did offend a brave and courageous man who has taken on a tough job knowing that he's been earmarked for assassination by the former Baath thugs.
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Re: Beheading!

Postby haggis » Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:06 pm

Shos,

""I also wonder about civilians who voluntarily go into a place like Iraq and are fully aware that they are targets for these murderers and have the means to leave the country on a daily basis, yet stay.

This is from a post several miles back. I believe the civilians are given obscenely large salaries to induce risk taking."


Depends on your definition of obscenely large salaries I guess, but the higher offered salary I've seen is $110K for senior level law enforcement types. I'm sure there might be higher salaries, I'm just not aware of them.

I'ver seen truck drivers getting $60 - 70K.

Usually room and board is included. If they stay for a year then the first $70K is tax free. It might have gone up since I was last an ex pat. They also get other perks, free travel home for vacations, etc.

You'd be surprised how many people apply for these jobs. I know an electrician who works on these types of projects for six month to a year then takes a year off. He's been doing that since I met him in Somalia and he sent me an email about six months ago that he was in Afghanistan.

<small>[ 09-24-2004, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Haggis ]</small>
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Re: Beheading!

Postby Nicole Marie » Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:50 pm

I don't find Allawi a couragous man. He's a cleaned up version of Saddam. I've added yesterday's article below from the Australian SMH press. If this is the "new Iraq", then he's sounds just like Saddam and the US should distance ourselves (But hey, we picked him. He worked for Mukhabarat, which is on the CIA poll roll, no wonder we picked him.)

It's also pretty interesting that the US and Afganistan agree to delay elections 3 times until it was safe for ALL of Afganistan to vote. But we can't do that in Iraq? We can't wait until Iraq is safe so all of Iraq has a say? So why push elections in Iraq when we didn't in Afgan? So Bush can look good. Of course he is plugging that Iraq is safer (it's not) and that democratic elections will take place so he can make the US feel safer and win US votes. (Real democratic when the entire country can't vote :roll: )

Iraq is not safer, it's getting worse. I wish Bush would get that, but it's an election year and he has to win votes. You can't win them by saying Iraq is not doing well/the truth. "Not only do the car bombings and gunfights continue, but the rate of routine crimes perpetrated against Iraqi citizens remains among the very highest in the region. Insurgent attacks on U.S. forces are up 20% since the spring and 100% since last winter; U.S. Central Command's estimate of the number of hardened resistance fighters is also up by a factor of four since early in the year. American fatalities in August were at their fourth-highest monthly total since Saddam fell, and the number of American wounded that month was its highest ever. And despite the relatively successful outcome of the battle against Moktada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army in Najaf last month, several key Iraqi cities in the Sunni Triangle remain ungovernable and havens for terrorists and insurgents." http://www.brookings.org/views/op-ed/ohanlon/20040917.htm

SMH article:
Iyad Allawi, the new Prime Minister of Iraq, pulled a pistol and executed as many as six suspected insurgents at a Baghdad police station, just days before Washington handed control of the country to his interim government.

Witnesses say the prisoners - handcuffed and blindfolded - were lined up against a wall in a courtyard adjacent to the maximum-security cell block in which they were held at the Al-Amariyah security centre, in the city's south-western suburbs.

They say Dr Allawi told onlookers the victims had each killed as many as 50 Iraqis and they "deserved worse than death".

Informants told the Herald that Dr Allawi shot each young man in the head as about a dozen Iraqi policemen and four Americans from the Prime Minister's personal security team watched in stunned silence.

Iraq's Interior Minister, Falah al-Naqib, is said to have looked on and congratulated him when the job was done. Mr al-Naqib's office has issued a verbal denial.

The names of three of the alleged victims have been obtained by the Herald.

One of the witnesses claimed that before killing the prisoners Dr Allawi had told those around him that he wanted to send a clear message to the police on how to deal with insurgents.

"The prisoners were against the wall and we were standing in the courtyard when the Interior Minister said that he would like to kill them all on the spot. Allawi said that they deserved worse than death - but then he pulled the pistol from his belt and started shooting them."

Re-enacting the killings, one witness stood three to four meters in front of a wall and swung his outstretched arm in an even arc, left to right, jerking his wrist to mimic the recoil as each bullet was fired. Then he raised a hand to his brow, saying: "He was very close. Each was shot in the head."

The prisoners were against the wall and we were standing in the courtyard when the Interior Minister said that he would like to kill them all on the spot. Allawi said that they deserved worse than death - but then he pulled the pistol from his belt and started shooting them. The witnesses said seven prisoners had been brought out to the courtyard, but the last man in the line was only wounded - in the neck, said one witness; in the chest, said the other.

Given Dr Allawi's role as the leader of the US experiment in planting a model democracy in the Middle East, allegations of a return to the cold-blooded tactics of his predecessor are likely to stir a simmering debate on how well Washington knows its man in Baghdad, and precisely what he envisages for the new Iraq.

There is much debate and rumour in Baghdad about the Prime Minister's capacity for brutality, but this is the first time eyewitness accounts have been obtained.

A former CIA officer, Vincent Cannisatraro, recently told The New Yorker: "If you're asking me if Allawi has blood on his hands from his days in London, the answer is yes, he does. He was a paid Mukhabarat [intelligence] agent for the Iraqis, and he was involved in dirty stuff."

In Baghdad, varying accounts of the shootings are interpreted by observers as useful to a little-known politician who, after 33 years in exile, needs to prove his leadership credentials as a "strongman" in a war-ravaged country that has no experience of democracy.

Dr Allawi's statement dismissed the allegations as rumours instigated by enemies of his interim government.

But in a sharp reminder of the Iraqi hunger for security above all else, the witnesses did not perceive themselves as whistle-blowers. In interviews with the Herald they were enthusiastic about such killings, with one of them arguing: "These criminals were terrorists. They are the ones who plant the bombs."

Before the shootings, the 58-year-old Prime Minister is said to have told the policemen they must have courage in their work and that he would shield them from any repercussions if they killed insurgents in the course of their duty.

The witnesses said the Iraqi police observers were "shocked and surprised". But asked what message they might take from such an act, one said: "Any terrorists in Iraq should have the same destiny. This is the new Iraq."

After the removal of the bodies, the officer in charge of the complex, General Raad Abdullah, is said to have called a meeting of the policemen and told them not to talk outside the station about what had happened. "He said it was a security issue," a witness said.

One of the Al-Amariyah witnesses said he watched as Iraqis among the Prime Minister's bodyguards piled the prisoners' bodies into the back of a Nissan utility and drove off. He did not know what became of them. But the other witness said the bodies were buried west of Baghdad, in open desert country near Abu Ghraib.

That would place their burial near the notorious prison, which was used by Saddam Hussein's security forces to torture and kill thousands of Iraqis. Subsequently it was revealed as the setting for the still-unfolding prisoner abuse scandal involving US troops in the aftermath of the fall of Baghdad.

The Herald has established that as many as 30 people, including the victims, may have been in the courtyard. One of the witnesses said there were five or six civilian-clad American security men in a convoy of five or six late model four-wheel-drive vehicles that was shepherding Dr Allawi's entourage on the day. The US military and Dr Allawi's office refused to respond to questions about the composition of his security team. It is understood that the core of his protection unit is drawn from the US Special Forces units.

The security establishment where the killings are said to have happened is on open ground on the border of the Al-Amariyah and Al-Kudra neighbourhoods in Baghdad.

About 90 policemen are stationed at the complex, which processes insurgents and more hardened offenders among those captured in the struggle against a wave of murder, robbery and kidnapping in post-invasion Iraq.

The Interior Ministry denied permission for the Herald to enter the heavily fortified police complex.

The two witnesses were independently and separately found by the Herald. Neither approached the newspaper. They were interviewed on different days in a private home in Baghdad, without being told the other had spoken. A condition of the co-operation of each man was that no personal information would be published.

Both interviews lasted more than 90 minutes and were conducted through an interpreter, with another journalist present for one of the meetings. The witnesses were not paid for the interviews.

Dr Allawi's office has dismissed the allegations as rumours instigated by enemies of his interim government. In response to a question asking if Dr Allawi carried a gun, the statement said: "[He] does not carry a pistol. He is the Prime Minister of Iraq, not a combatant in need of any weaponry."

Sabah Khadum, a senior adviser to Interior Minister Mr Naqib, whose portfolio covers police matters, also dismissed the accounts. Rejecting them as "ludicrous", Mr Khadum said of Dr Allawi: "He is a doctor and I know him. He was my neighbour in London. He just doesn't have it in him. This is not worth discussing."

Asked if Dr Allawi had visited the Al-Amariyah complex - one of the most important counter-insurgency centres in Baghdad - Mr Khadum said he could not reveal the Prime Minister's movements. But he added: "Dr Allawi has made many visits to police stations ... he is heading the offensive."

US officials in Iraq have not made an outright denial of the allegations. An emailed response to questions from the Herald to the US ambassador, John Negroponte, said: "If we attempted to refute each [rumour], we would have no time for other business. As far as this embassy's press office is concerned, this case is closed."
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Re: Beheading!

Postby piqaboo » Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:01 pm

The News Herald, Panama City, Florida, Sunday April 4, 2004. His email address is plucas@pcnh.com. The News Herald web site is found at http://www.newsherald.com/


Up Against Fanaticism

By Phil Lucas, Executive Editor, Panama City New Herald

If straight talk of savagery offends you, if you believe in ethnic and gender diversity but not diversity of thought or if you think there is an acceptable gray area between good and evil, then turn to the funny pages, and take the children, too. This piece is not for you.

We published pictures Thursday of burnt American corpses hanging from an Iraqi bridge behind a mob of grinning Muslims. Some readers didn't like it.

Mothers said it frightened their children. A woman who works with Muslim physicians thought it might offend or endanger them.

Well, we sure don't want to frighten, offend or endanger anybody, do we? That's just too much diversity to handle. I mean, somebody might get hurt.

We could fill the newspaper every morning with mobs of fanatical Muslims. They can't get along with their neighbors on much of the planet: France,Chechnya, Bosnia, Indonesia, Spain, Morocco, India, Tunisia, Somalia,etc. etc. etc. Can anybody name three ongoing world conflicts in which Muslims are not involved? Today, where there is war, there are fanatical Muslims.

We might quibble about who started what conflicts, but look at the sheer number of them.

One thing is sure. Muslim killers started the one we are in now when they slaughtered more that 3,000 people, including fellow Muslims, in New York City.

Madeleine Albright, the former secretary of state and reckless appeaser who helped get us into this mess, said last week Muslims still resent the Crusades. Well, Madam Albright, if Westerners were not such a forgiving people, we might resent them too.

Let's recap the Crusades. Muslims invaded Europe, and when they reached sufficient numbers, they imposed their intolerant religion upon Westerners by force. Christian monarchs drove them back and took the battle to their homeland. The fight lasted a couple of centuries, and we bottled them up for 1,000 years.

Now, a millennium later, Muslims have expanded forth again. Ask France. Ask England. Ask Manhattan. Two-and-a-half years ago fanatical Muslims laid siege to us. We woke up to the obvious. Our president announced it would be a very long war, then took the battle to the Islamic homeland. Sound Familiar?

Let's consider the concept of a "long war.! " Last time it was 200 years, give or take. Anybody catch Lord of the Rings? You know, the good part, the part that wasn't fiction, the part that drew us to the books and movies because it was the truest part: the titanic struggle between good and evil, between freedom and enslavement, between the individual and the state, between the celebration of life and the worshipping of death.

That's the fight we are in, and it never ends. It just has peaks and valleys.

There may be a silent majority of peaceful Muslims - some live here - but that did not save 3,000 people in the World Trade Center, the million gassed and butchered in the Middle East, the tens of thousands slain in Easter Europe and Asia, the hundreds blown to bits in the West Bank and Spain, or the four Americans shot, burned and hung like sausage over the Euphrates as a fanatical minority of Muslims did the joyful dance of death.

Maybe we are so tolerant, we are so bent on "diversity," we are so nonjudgmental, we are so wrapped up in our six-packs and ballgames that our brains have drained to our bulbous behinds. Maybe we're so addled on Ritalin we wouldn't know which end of a gun to hold. Maybe we need a new drug advertised on TV every three minutes, one that would help us grow a backbone.

It doesn't take a Darwin to figure out that in this world the smartest,the fastest, the strongest, and the most committed always win. No exceptions.

Look at your spouse and children. Look at yourself in the mirror. Then look at the pictures from the paper last Thursday. You better look at them. Those are the people out to kill you.

Who do you think will win? You? Or them? Think you can take your ball and go home and they will leave you alone? Read a little history. Start with last week, last month, last year, and every other year back for half a century. Then go back a thousand years. Nobody hides from this fight.

Like it or not, that's the way it was and that's the way it is.

But many Americans don't get it.

That's why we published those pictures.

If they jarred you off the sofa, if they offended you, if they scared your children and sent you into a rage at mass murderers or heartless editors, then I say, it's a start.
Altoid - curiously strong.
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Re: Beheading!

Postby RC » Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:40 pm

So how do you feel about that article Piq?


BTW,
It doesn't take a Darwin to figure out that in this world the smartest,the fastest, the strongest, and the most committed always win. No exceptions.
That is not a statement representative of Darwin and the fact that the author uses it to emphasize his point just makes him lose credibility.

(Like making some blanket statement about the military and then having to scramble to come up with sources ;) )
A man is the sum of his actions, of what he has done, of what he can do, Nothing else.
Mahatma Mohandas K. Gandhi
RC
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Re: Beheading!

Postby haggis » Fri Sep 24, 2004 3:17 pm

Nicole,
What I admire is a man who was once left for dead (1978) in his Surrey home after having been bludgeoned with an ax by one of Saddam's henchman who thought he had killed him. Allawi then spent a year in a hospital. He is still said to walk with a limp and is now the object of, one would imagine, daily assassination attempts.

As far as the shootings, ff the SMH (Sydney Morning Herald?) article had ANY legs is there any doubt it would have been plastered all over the NYT and LAT?

That it hasn't been leave me skeptical
Haggis

A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing
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