Last hope for America?

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Last hope for America?

Postby mpreston » Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:58 am

Such a dramatic title, I know, but IMO this election is especially pivital in recent American history, our global relations and our station within the global community.

I have to say when I woke up this morning I was a little depressed.

:(

It seems the only hope that remains for nearly 50% of the country is that Bush may listen to (and make a conscious note of) what Dems had to say about foreign policy and Iraq.

Who actually thinks that will happen? Do any of the Kerry supporters out there believe that Bush will step up to the plate with regards to our tattered foreign relations? Or will he sit back on his heels and do as he pleases since there are no more elections in his future?


What about Bush supporters (the few that dare to brave the bbb)? How do you think Bush should handle the current global situation?
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Re: Last hope for America?

Postby OperaTenor » Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:32 am

I feel he'll see this as the big green light to continue with the PNAC pogrom for Americanizing the world through force. There's a slightly hidden agenda for "Christianizing" the world, but I don't call what they espouse Chrisitanity. It's more of a type of repression through moral intolerance fearmongering(is that a word?).

As for world relations, we'll most likely invade Iran and get into some type of showdown with North Korea(imagine, a new cold war with - CHINA!), our thinly spread military shored up by legions of Halliburton employees.

And UBL will continue to taunt us, perhaps even inspire/launch future attacks, killing more innocent people and justifying shrub's forays. And we will continue to fail to catch him.

Speaking of Halliburton, what does it cost us to keep a member of active duty military, as opposed to a Halliburton employee on the payroll?

<small>[ 11-03-2004, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>
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Re: Last hope for America?

Postby RC » Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:04 pm

Time to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps and figure out what we can do from this point forward.

Look for some rather dramatic changes by Bush et al over the next 4 years. I agree that Bush will take every opportunity he can to implement each and every aspect of his personal philosophy regardless of public opinion.

Don't forget, it wasn't just the presidency, but the house and senate and probably the judicial soon. Mucho power.

My Crystal Ball says:

Forget Iraq. Bush only has 4 years to take Iran and N Korea, possibly Syria, etc... He will be moving like a bat outta hell.
Israel will see this as an opportunity and will, at a minimum, make a giant step against the Palestinians that sets the middle east on its ear.

There will be a giant scramble for power over oil in the ensuing turmoil. China, who used to export its oil but as the fastest growing economy in the world and dependent on mid east oil, will NOT allow the new Pax Americana.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we will see the constitution amended at least once but probably twice, a reversal of Roe V Wade, prayer in public school, a further polarization of wealth, a furtherance of the partisan rift, a furtherance of the rift between the religious right and everyone else, increasing discrimination toward anyone of mid east dissent or of Muslim faith, a continuation of tenuous economic stability.

I predict that the next terror attack(s) will be directly related to the economy (as many are speculating and have speculated). Since we're already pretty shakey, it could be fairly successful with little effort.

But hey, if you can't find a job, you can always join the military...

The next election will be set up to continue the agenda and SOMEONE better be prepared. Should be interesting to see how far we get before then.
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Re: Last hope for America?

Postby OperaTenor » Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:15 pm

Hmmm, war with China over the Middle East. Isn't there something in the Bible about that? Where are those plains of Armageddon?

Which will be the forces of evil and which will be the forces of good?

Sheesh, it's really hard to sing after not getting any sleep...

<small>[ 11-03-2004, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>
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Re: Last hope for America?

Postby mpreston » Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:25 pm

Much to my dismay I have to agree.

Not only were the first four years frought with the blatant ignoring of facts, (9/11 commission, N. Korea, Iran, lack of WMD in Iraq), but the shrub hasn't once acknowledged being wrong, or what corrections can be made, if any.

Now that the GOP controls 2/3 of our goverment's branches (with judical appointments likely in the very near future), the discussion of who's going to appoint a comprehensive intelligence leader (an option now unlikely to receive as much resistance) is moot. We can expect more shady decisions being made on virtually nonexsistent/false intelligence and the public will be uninformed.

If the president is given carte blanche to take on Iran and N. Korea, where do those troops come from? Who's keeping an eye on Israel? Who's looking for terrorists when nuclear/biological warfare is becoming a much more defined threat? Better yet, who's even paying attention to the unemployment rate here in the States when our newly re-elected leader is looking for more money we don't have to get more troops he can't find to send to countries he never considered a threat in the first place? :( :confused:
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Re: Last hope for America?

Postby mpreston » Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:27 pm

Originally posted by RC:
But hey, if you can't find a job, you can always join the military...
Perhaps it's all a conspiracy to get more troops with out actually having a draft.... :eek:
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Re: Last hope for America?

Postby OperaTenor » Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:33 pm

It would be counter to Halliburton's best interest to enlist/draft more troops. Cheney wouldn't go for it.
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Re: Last hope for America?

Postby haggis » Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:08 pm

Jeez guys, take a deep breath, step back from the ledge and don’t drink the Kool-Aide.

What this country needs now is for the Democratic party to fix itself and re-enter the main stream of American politics.

The Democratic party needs to revitalize itself.

Kerry’s leftist anti-war past was not the credentials of someone who could bring the Democratic party together. Democratic leaders must recognize we are in a war for our way of life and realize that Vietnam is in the past.

Barack Obama is a rising star within the Democratic party partly because he has the potential to grasp the war, and what it means for all Americans. Democrats need to share it with the Republicans, who currently own it lock, stock and barrel.

Something is rotten in the Democratic Party and they need to fix it fast and breathe new life into their party. We would be a stronger nation for it. The GOP has control of all branches of government. That's a mandate to the Democrats to get their heads out of the pot smoke of the Sixties, quit listening to Michael Moore, and get serious.

I will root for that, although right now I fear that seems unlikely.

And yes, the Republicans have a lot to prove in the next four years. Broad expansion of government spending and military commitments abroad can't continue indefinitely.

By the next election, Republicans will have dominated government for a long enough period to be fully responsible for the state of the union at that point. Seeds planted in the early Bush years will blossom in the later ones.

In 2004, the war on terror is relatively young; by 2008, whether or not America is entrenched or winning the war will be apparent. The judgment of the electorate will be harsh if today's policies don't become the basis of our security in 2008, domestically and internationally.

We have some serious business on our plate. We are faced with two rising nuclear rogue powers; Bin Laden apparently lives, and plans

[i](ED. “So, smart ass, he’s a thin layer of paste on some cave in Tora Bora?”

Wellllllll……… :D
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Re: Last hope for America?

Postby haggis » Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:17 pm

NICE KERRY LINE:

"In American elections there are no losers, because whether or not our candidates win or lose, the next morning we wake up as Americans."
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Re: Last hope for America?

Postby haggis » Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:21 pm

From Coyote Blog

Something Unusual Will Happen in 2008.

Assuming Cheney does not want to run for president, which I think is a given, something will happen in 2008 that has not happened in 56 years since 1952: Neither of the two major-party presidential candidates will be incumbents of the President or Vice-President jobs.

In 1952 we had Eisenhower vs. Stevenson. Since then we have always had incumbents running, though not necessarily successfully -

1956: Eisenhower
1960: Nixon
1964: Johnson
1968: Humphrey
1972: Nixon
1976: Ford
1980: Carter
1984: Mondale and Reagan
1988: Bush
1992: Bush
1996: Clinton
2000: Gore
2004: Bush v 1.1
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Re: Last hope for America?

Postby OperaTenor » Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:30 am

Originally posted by Haggis:
...Bin Laden apparently lives, and plans

(ED. “So, smart ass, he’s a thin layer of paste on some cave in Tora Bora?”

Wellllllll……… :roll: )

Funny, no mention of any need to get some closure with regards to world enemy #1 from the President Re-elect today. Must not be of national importance.

With regards to Iran and N. Korea, Haggis, you projected they, especially Iran, would be dealt with in the near future. Why is RC's scenario so far-fetched?
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Re: Last hope for America?

Postby RC » Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:21 am

Haggis, welcome back. I LOVE your posts avobe.
Well said.

Here is something to mull over:
The exit polls show that the prominant reason, by far, for voting for Bush was NOT the war in Iraq or the war on terror (notice how those are separate), but "moral values".

So the pot smoke of the sixties has more to do with abortion and gay union in marriage than it does with national security.

Bush's base is white evangelicals. What that tells me is twofold: 1. That Bush's base is out of touch, and 2. That if Kerry's base were as fanatical about their security as the Bush's base was about their "moral values", Kerry would be our new president.

Broad expansion of government spending and military commitments abroad can't continue indefinitely.
Bin Laden apparently lives
We have some serious business on our plate. We are faced with two rising nuclear rogue powers
Democracy is fragile in Russia; China's economy roils; Europe is in political realignment
May the seriousness of our world be matched by our own serious resolve to fully engage it
Jeez Haggis, take a deep breath, step back from the ledge... ;)

The judgment of the electorate will be harsh if today's policies don't become the basis of our security in 2008, domestically and internationally.
"Harsh" is an understatement! "Judgement" is not exclusive to our own electorate! The PNAC/Bush Doctrine brand of unilateralism is going to bite us in the rear end.

Now,
With regards to Iran and N. Korea, Haggis, you projected they, especially Iran, would be dealt with in the near future. Why is RC's scenario so far-fetched?
(courtesy OT).

<small>[ 11-04-2004, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: RC ]</small>
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Re: Last hope for America?

Postby OperaTenor » Thu Nov 04, 2004 11:35 am

Hey Haggis, are you employed by Halliburton?!!

;)

Mmm, mmm, mmmm! That Kool-Aid sure tastes good!
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Re: Last hope for America?

Postby haggis » Thu Nov 04, 2004 11:39 am

Actually, I agree with RC re: Iran and said previously that I think something will happen in Iran before the end of the year. I'm fearful that if we (the “West”) don’t do something then the Israelis will, possibly within months if not weeks.

But consider, the Iranians already have the capacity to send ballistic missiles to all of Europe and Russia and will probably extend that range (via polar trajectory) to include the U.S. by the end of the decade. So for now this should be a problem for Europe more than it should be a problem for us.

Likewise, NK has tested a missile that will reach all of it neighbors and Hawaii and will probably extend the range to include the west coast of the U.S. within a few years.

Do you think these countries; Europe, Russia and Asian neighbors of NK, have no role to play in deterring Iran and NK from their present courses?

Do you support direct military action against either of these countries? If you don’t then our only option is to wait

It’s safe to assume that NK already has nukes; it’s also safe to assume that any military action against NK will result in a nuclear response against SK at the very least. It’s hard to play “brinkmanship” when your opponent is a certified nutter. So what do we do?

Probably we leave NK isolated and hope for an economic collapse while pressuring China, Russia, Japan and SK to take more responsibility for their neighborhood. Other than military action there’s not much else we can do. We’ve already demonstrated via Carter and Clinton that economic incentives (i.e. economic blackmail) don’t work, the NK simple ignore their promises and do what ever they want to. NK desperately wants the U.S. to enter into unilateral discussion and the U.S. is insisting that China, SK, Japan and Russia get involved.

Iran is a tougher nut to crack, but since we have a strong military presence on three of its borders we have some leverage in making it behave for the present.

”Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we will see the constitution amended at least once but probably twice”

What, exactly will the amendments be? I’m curious. I’m not aware of any current issues that rise to the level of national sentiment required to drive an effort to amend the Constitution.

It’s not an easy task to amend the Constitution. There are essentially two ways to amend it; one has never been used.

The first method is for a bill to pass both halves of the legislature, by a two-thirds majority in each. Once the bill has passed both houses, it goes on to the states. This is the route taken by all current amendments. Congress will normally put a time limit (typically seven years) for the bill to be approved as an amendment.

The second method prescribed is for a Constitutional Convention to be called by two-thirds of the legislatures of the States, and for that Convention to propose one or more amendments. These amendments are then sent to the states to be approved by three-fourths of the legislatures or conventions. This route has never been taken, and there is discussion in political science circles about just how such a convention would be convened, and what kind of changes it would bring about.

Regardless of which of the two proposal routes is taken, the amendment must be approved by three-fourths of states. Passage by the legislature or convention is by simple majority.

It is interesting to note that at no point does the President have a role in the formal amendment process (though he would be free to make his opinion known). He cannot veto an amendment proposal, nor a ratification. So I don’t believe that even one, much less two, amendment will come in the next four years.

”a reversal of Roe V Wade”

Not even remotely probable with the current Supreme Court, but will probably change within the next 20 years. As I mentioned earlier, the U.S. is growing more conservative and the courts will eventually reflect that trend. More and more polls show a majority of Americans are against or favor restrictions on abortion. Go online and do some research, from Zogby to Gallup to the LA Times to Fox to the Center For American Women and Politics, all polls reflect growing opposition to “abortion on demand.”

I would like to see Roe V. Wade changed to allow individual states to determine their stance on the law.

Something to consider, Roe V. Wade probably contributed to the loss of your candidate.

About.com lists the number of abortions in the U.S. each year starting in 1973, "based on assumptions by the Alan Guttmacher Institute." If we add up the numbers from 1975-86, we come up with approximately 17.5 million missing eligible voters between 18 and 29 years old. Exit polls found that voters this age who were born went for Kerry over Bush, 54% to 45%, while Bush had a majority in all other age groups. If it's true that women who have abortions tend to be more liberal than those who don't, then the unborn 18- to 29-year-olds likely would have favored the Democrat even more heavily.

Prayer in public school

Unlike abortion, I don’t see this changing, I do see more private schools and increases in school vouchers and I think the District of Columbia is where this battle will be fought. An overwhelming majority of blacks in D.C. want vouchers or better access to private school. Congress has been blocking those attempts (shameful when you consider that no Congress person’s children attend school there) and that battle will come to a head in the next few years.

”a further polarization of wealth”

this is only a bad thing if the wealthy group is static, that’s not so. Studies of America’s poorest class, immigrants, all show significant accumulation of wealth over a 20 years period. BEA records show increasing wealth across the board for all Americans every year since 1947.

”a furtherance of the partisan rift”

Only until the Democratic party re-invents itself and moves back to the center of American politics. The party of the McGovernites needs to become the party of the Obamaites, sadly, I think the Clinton will continue to “own” the party until one of them dies. While I believe Hillary and Bill are essentially centrists, they are rapidly becoming the “poor” Kennedys of this century and tend to suck the oxygen away from other capable leaders, but that’s just an opinion so don’t challenge me on it, I can’t really defend it via anything other than “gut feel”

”a furtherance of the rift between the religious right and everyone else”

Or maybe “everyone else’ will become more religious? And the ‘religious right” didn’t elect Bush this time. Bush's popular-vote total, more than 58 million, is the most ever for a presidential candidate, and is an improvement of at least eight million over his 2000 vote total.

That means that if Karl Rove got his four million Evangelical Christians, Bush brought in at least an additional four million new voters or Gore voters. So if Bush infers a popular madate he has good reason to do so

This shift may reflect "9/11 Republicans," Americans who used to vote Democratic but cannot abide the party's weakness on national security.

”increasing discrimination toward anyone of mid east dissent or of Muslim faith”

Sadly, I’m afraid you are right. But you yourself would get concerned if you saw 5- 10 dark complected middle eastern looking young males walk into your children’s school. It’s a sad sign of the times and I think it will last for some time.

”a continuation of tenuous economic stability.”

if by “tenuous” you mean the economy will grow at a higher rate than Clinton bragged about when he ran for reelection in 1996 then “tenuous” is good enough for me. GDP growth of 2 – 3.5% is a good sustainable number, especially coming after the recession Bush inherited and 9/11.

Like Shapley commented early, this “lousy” economy has me hopping 10 hours a day and my company’s annual business topped $2 Bil in revenues last year for the first time. Since we warehouse and move other companies’ products that's a good sign to me that the economy is beginning to boom again.
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Re: Last hope for America?

Postby RC » Thu Nov 04, 2004 11:56 am

All I can say is, totally hopeless.

Answer the question: "With regards to Iran and N. Korea, Haggis, you projected they, especially Iran, would be dealt with in the near future. Why is RC's scenario so far-fetched?"

Which does NOT speak to a lack of enthusiasm for national security but to unilateral action.

Don't drink the kool-aid you say - answer the question and THEN tell me don't drink the kool-aid. AND THEN, we can move on to the next multiple topics.

<small>[ 11-04-2004, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: RC ]</small>
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Re: Last hope for America?

Postby OperaTenor » Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:21 pm

Hi Haggis,

Once again, using the logic you employ, we had no business whatsoever in Iraq. Iran has always been a higher profile KNOWN threat to our national security(home of Hezbollah, for instance), and KNOWN(not speculated) nuclear weapons researcher. From the 1st Gulf War on, our intelligence on Iraq's WMD's was a house of cards, according to every source known.

No business unless you take the PNAC's view of the world, of course...
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Re: Last hope for America?

Postby Shapley » Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:29 pm

RC:

RE:Bush's base is white evangelicals

There aren't enough white evangelicals to put Bush over the top. There certainly aren't 59,000,000 of them.

Bush's base are conservative. That term covers a large variety of people. His support comes from all across the board. Kerry turned out the second-highest number of voters in history, but he couldn't win. THe problem is not that That if Kerry's base were as fanatical about their security as the Bush's base was about their "moral values", Kerry would be our new president, the problem is simply that he didn't have enough supporters. They numbered in the minority. I watched the vote count all night. President Bush was never behind in the popular vote. It wasn't simply that his base was more energized, it was simply that he had a broader base. You don't get that kind of support appealing only to white evangelicals.

V/R
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Re: Last hope for America?

Postby haggis » Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:59 pm

"From the 1st Gulf War on, our intelligence on Iraq's WMD's was a house of cards, according to every source known."

possibly, even probably, but it was a house accepted as fact by every government of every western country. If, as it appears, our intelligence was faulty it can't be blamed on Bush soley.

And, eventually the presence or absence of WMD’s just didn’t matter.

Whether policymakers and Americans supported or opposed the war effort was not determined by their conviction about the presence of weapons of mass destruction.

Those who supported the war (me), in overwhelming numbers, believed there were multiple justifications for it.

Those who oppose the war, in equally overwhelming numbers, weren't swayed by the WMD arguments. Indeed, many of them had no difficulty opposing the war while believing that Saddam possessed vast quantities of such weapons.

In Sep 2002, Sen. Kennedy said. "We have known for many years, that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." And yet a few weeks later he voted against authorizing the Iraq war.

Even our “ally” French President Jacques Chirac, believed and stated Saddam had WMDs and still did everything in his power to block the war.

And, as I said earlier we now have a sizable force on three of Iran’s borders, something to keep the Mullahs up at night.

” Answer the question: "With regards to Iran and N. Korea, Haggis, you projected they, especially Iran, would be dealt with in the near future. Why is RC's scenario so far-fetched?"

I’m confused, what did I miss? The only “scenario” RC proposed that I can find is

” Forget Iraq. Bush only has 4 years to take Iran and N Korea, possibly Syria, etc... He will be moving like a bat outta hell.”

And I thought I answered that.

I don’t think anything short of war, economic collapse, (NK; possible) or revolt (Iran; possible) will dissuade either country from developing and deploying nuclear weapons.

I don’t think we can wage a unilateral war against either country without it going nuclear.

I just don’t think the President is going to risk that.

Was there another prediction I missed?
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Re: Last hope for America?

Postby RC » Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:30 pm

Oops my bad.

<small>[ 11-04-2004, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: RC ]</small>
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Re: Last hope for America?

Postby OperaTenor » Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:00 pm

Originally posted by Haggis:

And, eventually the presence or absence of WMD’s just didn’t matter.

Whether policymakers and Americans supported or opposed the war effort was not determined by their conviction about the presence of weapons of mass destruction.

Those who supported the war (me), in overwhelming numbers, believed there were multiple justifications for it.

Those who oppose the war, in equally overwhelming numbers, weren't swayed by the WMD arguments. Indeed, many of them had no difficulty opposing the war while believing that Saddam possessed vast quantities of such weapons.

Their presence or absence matter muchly to me, and a large number of people I know. The invasion was sold to the American people[me] as a campaign to unseat a sponsor of global terror, who had hidden inventories of weapons of mass destruction. Our intelligence on what Saddam actually may have had was thin at best, and our leaders knew it. However, we have known for a fact all along what Iran and North Korea have been up to. If GWB wanted to use Iraq as a staging area to threaten Iran, perhaps a lot of divisiveness would have been avoided(but then, he never could have sold that agenda to the American people, could he?).

As for Iraq, GWB has yet to come clean and acknowledge that he was wrong(giving him the benefit of the doubt), or has not invested enough resources to prove that he's right. Of course, now we'll move on to Iran et al, and won't have the resources to allocate to Iraq to find the elusive WMD's, let alone to ensure Afghanistan's future stability. That the WMD's appear to not be there as promised turns me from being a supporter of our invasion to being completely against it. I've discussed this with scores of friends(yes, I have friends) who are all of like mind. We feel we've been duped, and no longer have any faith in the person who duped us.

And then there's UBL...

I can't help but wonder, if we had succeeded in preventing al Jazeera's broadcast, would we EVER have heard of the tape's exsistence? As it is, even the MSM is downplaying the significance of it, IMNSHO. We have failed to capture/kill the bastard. Why isn't that our #1 antiterrorism priority? We, the American people, in our short attention span, have let our eyes stray from the prize. In this, I feel we are as guilty as our leaders. As long as he eludes and taunts us, he wins, and we continue to look like the fat, lumbering TO for terrorism.

What was that RC said? Exit polls showed Bush supporters voted for him more out of moral/domestic issues than antiterrorist concerns?

Oh yeah, that's right, Kerry's bad because he was gonna be weak on terror.

I think I'll swill some more Kool-Aid...
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