Kindness Deficit

[RC]

It would be rare indeed in this country that a doctor would turn away a patient in need of emergency care, regardless of their ability to pay.

What are all those dang jars on the counter in the grocery store for? Dang, I thought they were REAL!

[barfle]

Originally posted by OperaTenor:
If the majority of Americans believe possession of a refrigerator is a right, then perhaps the government should provide us with refrigerators. I thought I stated very clearly that this should be mandated by the will of the American people, like everything else is supposed to be.

This is the one issue that makes me a bad Libertarian. I feel it's wrong to live in the most prosperous country in history and have a significant portion of the population denied what I would consider a fundamental right: to be able to find relief from physical suffering.

Shame on us for not doing everything we can to take care of each other.

First point - There is NO such thing as "the government" that can provide us with refrigerators or anything else. They don't have the ability to create refrigerators with no resources, so guess where the refrigerators come from? Same place we get them from. And if the government were supplying refrigerators, I can only imagine what might happen if you wanted an ice maker in the door. To top it off, a government distribution program would be far less efficient than the existing competitive private enterprise system (I cite the example of public schools).

Second point - If everything is supposed to be mandated by the will of the American people, then we have no need for a Constutution, courts, legislatures, or even laws. Everybody votes on everything (and you already know what kind of a mess that can get you into).

Third point - If relief from physical suffering ought to be a right, then you place no limits on what would be spent in the search for relief from something like a person's suffering from the size of their nose, from their husband's snoring, from a hangnail, or even from real suffering that is incurable (I cite my mother-in-law's lost battle with cancer).

Fourth point - There's a HUGE difference between taking care of each other and having men with guns force us to take the steps they dictate under the guise of taking care of each other. As I have noted, charities can do wonders if they are allowed to do the work they were formed to do.

Indeed, OT, your idea of liberty is a collectivist one - we might be free to be us, but you would not be free to be you, and I would not be free to be me. We could only do what's good for the herd, not for the individual, under your view of liberty. We're stuck in the chorus - we can NEVER solo.

Selfishness may not be a virtue, but it is a right. I am best suited to determine how much I am willing to give to others, whether it be for their health care, their refrigerator, or their collection of quadraphonic classical vinyl LPs.

[RC]

I wish I could draw a picture here.

Picture a graph.

The X axis (horizontal, left/right), has numbers representing income levels.

The Y axis (vertical, up/down), represents population levels.

The US graph like this SHOULD be a nice even bell curve all the time.

Whatever you do to the numbers along the Y axis (at the bottom), does NOT matter. The shape of the curve should stay the same.

All the income numbers increase over time - that's normal. The curve remains the same...or should. Inflation and deflation are irrelevant.

Our curve is flattening. The ends are growing and the middle dips.

Come on Haggis - guys are picture people, you can do this.

<small>[ 11-10-2004, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: RC ]</small>

[RC]

Indeed, OT, your idea of liberty is a collectivist one - we might be free to be us, but you would not be free to be you, and I would not be free to be me. We could only do what's good for the herd, not for the individual, under your view of liberty. We're stuck in the chorus - we can NEVER solo.

Excellent analogy and a great libertarian spot!

I think however that the crux of the debate between you two MIGHT be distinguishing what is necessary and what is not.

Do you HAVE to HAVE a refrigerator? Well, when I lived in WY it wasn't really necessary. I guess you could get by without one. Now that I live in FL, you pretty much need a refrigerator.

That having been said, if you don't have a refrigerator, even in WY, HRS is lible to take your children away because MOST people believe you NEED a refrigerator to survive in todays society. It is inefficient and potentially dangerous NOT to have one.

Same goes for healthcare. I don't really care if you see the doctor for that festering sore but I sure hope it isn't contagious... or, I hope that really is just a chest cold your child has instead of typhoid... or even, I wish you'd stop missing work and see the dang doctor.

[barfle]

Originally posted by RC:
Property and Casualty insurance is quite a bit different than health insurance. It really doesn't (can't in fact) work the same way.

Mostly for a lot of the reasons I already sited but there are other very basic differences including the idea of indemnity, a premise of P&C which can't translate in health insurance. (One of the reasons for "exorbitant" claims). The extremely complicated pooling used in underwriting health & life makes it impossible for the average Joe to shop this type of insurance.

Lets pretend a free market would work. First move is to get rid of health insurance all together and start an experiment from there.

Well, I'm willing to give it a shot.

I admit that I don't have a good answer for the "ambulance chaser" phenomenon we have. It seems like everyone wants to win the lottery and they think by suing the deepest pockets they can find they'll hit the jackpot. Yes, there are people who are permanently injured through the fault of their health care providers, and that's a shame. I think the faults should be remedied, but I sometimes wonder about how a lost hand can be worth millions (unless the hand came off someone who had shown that the hand was earning millions).

Maybe the ideas that "the insurance company" will pay for it, and "the insurance company" is inherently evil, need to be addressed.

[barfle]

RC, I would think if you kept the milk outside during one of those Wyoming winters, you wouldn't be able to drink it, and your sandwiches would be quite tough - even brittle! (I remember living in Michigan for three years, which has a heck of a lot to do with why I stayed in Southern California for over 40 years.)

I used the refrigerator analogy because a lot of us have one, don't think about it a heck of a lot (unless it goes out), but with a little thought would realize that our lives would be seriously strained without it. I like to camp, and an ice chest is quite limited.

No, I don't feel health care is a right, or even a necessity. As far as I can tell, doctors haven't done me a heck of a lot of good so far (although none have done me much harm, either). I may be unusual, and I expect my increasing age to eventually cause me problems I'll end up paying dearly to address, but the idea of health care being paid for by someone else is a relatively recent phenomenon. If I weren't budgeting my premiums, I would be budgeting for a medical nest egg, just like I do for car and house repairs.

[RC]

What would YOU give for a hand.
Sell it to me in theory.

Lets say you're 40 years old ( kissing up).

You have 2 young children, your wife, and quite possibly, at least one parent to provide for.

You've been an accountant all your life.

Because we are presumabley talking about MEDICAL MALPRACTICE INSURANCE, you've lost your hand because the doctor screwed up while trying to fix a fixable problem and had to amputate your hand.

Obviously, you do not get work comp, it only pays for a job related injury.

Your medical insurance is only going to pay for your original medical treatment and may argue about paying for a hand that was not supposed to be amputated (unnecessary treatment?).

Your doctor is not volunteering to compensate you beyond sewing up the gaping maw where your hand used to be.

Monday morning, you have to go to work and explain to your boss that you need special training because you can't type anymore - you can't even adjust your own chair. If this was your primary use hand, its going to take months, probably a year or more to become proficient again if ever.

Your boss has to put up with this AND your strange new mood. (I'm guessing you'd be depressed & frustrated).

You aren't getting that big promotion for a while.

You have to trade in your car 'cause you used to drive standard.

You need a prosthetic.

Your manners go to hell now that you have just one hand.

Lots of little personal things that you'll miss. Think about it.

You have half of your life to go and one hand left to get there.

What was it worth?

[treebeau]

As long as I don't lose an arm and a leg and my brother doesn't start calling me his "half brother"...

Geez, RC, you made me all depressed!

Regards,
Tim B.

[RC]

LOL...ROFL...
Thanks for not returning the favor Tim!

[haggis]

RC,
What you call "polarization," or expanding upper and lower economic classes, is only a problem if the groups are static or if the migrations are only one way, down.

Based on the past, that's demonstrably not the case. Upward migration from lower economic rungs to higher ones has been steady for decades, especially among immigrants.

But, to give you your due, the past four years have been rough on all Americans. The Census Bureau reported that median household income declined by $63 from 2002 to 2003, to $43,318.

Census officials characterized the median income figure as "unchanged" in 2003 because the decline was so small as to be well within the margin of error.

But even so, median income has declined by $1,535 since Bush took office, or 3.4 percent. And while the decline leveled off last year and may even be climbing again in 2004, most households are worse off economically now than they were when the President was sworn in.

Another indication that the middle class continued to shrink in 2003 is the increase in the number and percentage of persons living in poverty. According to the Census Bureau, the number of people living below the official poverty line grew by 1.3 million in 2003, to 35.9 million. That's nearly 4.3 million more poor persons than when Bush took office, an increase of nearly 14%.

So the question is, will this downward trend continue? You apparently are not optomistic that it will improve, or possibly improve only slowly.

I believe it is an anomaly based on the recession Bush inherited and 9/11 and am very optimistic the trend will, as over 50 years of data suggests, reverse as soon as next year.

I lost my job in 2001 based on the recession, but the increasing amount of business in my new job in the third party logistic provider (3PL) industry is a strong indicator to me that the trend is already reversing.

Let’s agree to “meet” back here next year and compare notes.

[barfle]

Originally posted by RC:
You have half of your life to go and one hand left to get there.

What was it worth?

Certainly not $10,000,000 for an accountant, even if the doctor was being a jerk about things, unless we get another couple of rounds of Carter-style inflation. Paul McCartney's hand, or a surgeon's hand would be a different story perhaps.

So what if the hand came off in a car accident (uninsured driver at fault with very little in the way of resources [check with OT]), or in an accident that was the fault of the amputee himself, or as a result of a mugging? Does the fact that a medical pracitioner non-delibarately caused the problem entitle the victim to any greater sum than otherwise?

[RC]

Haggis says: What you call "polarization," or expanding upper and lower economic classes, is only a problem if the groups are static or if the migrations are only one way, down.

OK, I give, you really are going to have to do some research 'cause you still arent' getting it. Maybe I'm not a good teacher.

What I call polarization is not a term I coined. It is an economic theory. I'm good but I'm not THAT good. I did not write the book.

Google it so that you feel comfortable in your own sources.

[RC]

So what if the hand came off in a car accident (uninsured driver at fault with very little in the way of resources [check with OT]), or in an accident that was the fault of the amputee himself, or as a result of a mugging? Does the fact that a medical pracitioner non-delibarately caused the problem entitle the victim to any greater sum than otherwise?

Say what?

Forget what the original problem was and how it happened.

We're talking about what increases health insurance costs. You theorized that it was out of control law suits. The ONLY relevant law suit to your argument is malpractice (liablity insurance). So the only injury to consider is the one the doctor caused. (i.e., the doctor made the hand come off when it should have been fine).

The only reason I mentioned a cause was to show you WHY you would have to sue the doctor. You can't and shouldn't expect the uninsured driver, work comp, your own health insurance or any other insurance to pay for injuries caused BY the doctor.

Also, specifically:

Does the fact that a medical pracitioner non-delibarately caused the problem entitle the victim to any greater sum than otherwise?

The cause has no bearing on the sum at all unless it IS deliberate in which case, you now have a CRIMINAL suit AND a civil suit in which even malpractice insurance will NOT pay!!!!!!!!!

The only thing that makes a difference in the sum awarded is the basic question, what is the hand worth?

Is MY 40 year old accountant hand worth $10,000,000? ...??? Hard to say. I rather like having them both.

YEP, my right hand is easily worth $10 mil. Of course, I also play flute, piano, guitar, violin for pleasure and immaterial financial gain. I like to throw things with it - great aim. I can't shoot without it eithe. I'm a multitasking kinda gal - man I really need both hands with two kids.

Yep... 10 mil is starting to sound pretty cheap.

If ANYONE made my hand come off I would think that would be a fair price. Doctors have insurance so you won't take away their liveliehood forever. YOU can buy liability insurance too and if you have it, it will protect you from unintentional injury to another.

<small>[ 11-10-2004, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: RC ]</small>

[barfle]

For $10 million, you can hire someone to go to work for you, to chase your kids around, and to teach you how to throw things left-handed.

The only reason I mentioned a cause was to show you WHY you would have to sue the doctor. You can't and shouldn't expect the uninsured driver, work comp, your own health insurance or any other insurance to pay for injuries caused BY the doctor.

I wasn't, and I thought my post made that clear. I was showing how anyone can screw up, and you can be out of luck. The perpetrator certainly should make good on his injury to you, but my right hand won't make me $10 million no matter how hard I make it work.

YEP, my right hand is easily worth $10 mil.

Maybe yours is more talented than mine - I can't say. But if you think it's worth that much, you would have to present a lot of evidence before I would go for an amount like that. Something like an insurance policy YOU took out on it.

[haggis]

Just because "polarization" is on the internet doens't make it true, it isn't. It's a scare phrase used by people who want you to beleive it's true.

"Flat earth" is also on the internet.

[piqaboo]

originally posted by EJA:
"puerile"

That's pretty ouchy word for a civil discussion.
It has connotation as well as literal definition.
Is there another word that means whatever you intended to say, that you might share with me, so that I can more clearly understand your post?

[piqaboo]

Originally posted by RC:

It would be rare indeed in this country that a doctor would turn away a patient in need of emergency care, regardless of their ability to pay.

What are all those dang jars on the counter in the grocery store for? Dang, I thought they were REAL!

Research

[piqaboo]

If Im very lucky, my hands, working together, will earn me a little over two million in my anticipated workign life -three quarters of it in the last half of the time. Thats the money my boss pays. Then there's the money that grows from that money via my investment of it.

It takes two good hands to do bench-work. I've tried using Excel software one-handed recently and its incredibly difficult.
So yes, if I lost a hand now, i could easily argue it was worth at least 5 mil, and quite possibly 10 mil.

Probably not 50 mil.

[EJA]

Originally posted by piqaboo:

originally posted by EJA:
[b]"puerile"

That's pretty ouchy word for a civil discussion.
It has connotation as well as literal definition.
Is there another word that means whatever you intended to say, that you might share with me, so that I can more clearly understand your post? [/b]

Eh, sorry, wasn't aware of any connotation (suspect that this connotation primarily exists across the pond); still don't know what it is; would be greatful for enlightenment. I thought naive was too strong, so I tried puerile. Maybe a bad pot shot. Sorry for any offense. Had in mind boyish admiration which has little connection to harsh reality; Regard for a thing as being nearly omnipotent and the fount of all good things; A mindset that elevates the object of admiration to near-deity status. Sorry for any offense (Did I say that already?).

Must add that I have felt a little sorry for poor OT in the tirade that has ensued this afternoon. I respect his visionary idealism, but nevertheless consider him to be wrong. In other words, I think that the tiraders are right but maybe a little harsh, or piling on.

Haggis, your reply indicates that you think that I think that lawsuit caps aren't a good idea. Is that an accurate reading? I think that they are quite a good idea, though better yet would be judges with half a brain.

Oh say, Piq, I got lost when you made the jump from 2 million to 5 million. Most people are lucky if they are able to invest 10% of their income. That would be, 200,000. With compounding interest over a lifetime, at 10% return, I can't imagine turning that into more than a million or so. Cut that in half for the loss of a hand, which I think is too much, and you're down to 500,000 (yes, I know with compound interest, it would be less than that, but work with me here). So your income is 3 million versus 1.5 million. Difference: 1.5 million--the max amount I think one could fairly demand if the physician were 100% at fault. Is the rest for pain, suffering and inconvenience?

[RC]

Just because "polarization" is on the internet doens't make it true, it isn't. It's a scare phrase used by people who want you to beleive it's true.

"Flat earth" is also on the internet.

The first time I learned of Income or Wealth Polarization as an economic theory was in economics at the University of S Florida where I obtained a minor in economics. That was quite awhile ago granted.

Go Figure.

It was presented as an economic theory relating to our own country. By the time I graduated, it was being discussed as a theory with quite a bit of supporting data. You can probably look up the Economics professor at a University near you and talk about it. Of course, you probably wouldn't believe them either.

Throughout the 90's it cropped up on talking heads programs several times. That kept me interested. I followed it through Reaganomics, the Trickle Down Effect, NAFTA...

Since I posted several reliable sites last time we discussed this and you said the same things, that leads me to believe that you are not interested in learning about it anyway. Thats your prerogative.

So, you aren't equipped to post anything other than rhetoric in regards to this specific economic subject. That's fine too but people ought to know when that's what you are doing.

I try really hard not to toot my own horn Haggis. I don't want to come off sounding arrogant..."well I have a minor in economics and you don't so na na na". I loved economics in school and I still do. I did well. I GET it and there aren't too many subjects I can say that about.

So, na, na, na

<small>[ 11-11-2004, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: RC ]</small>