Conservative? Liberal?

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Re: Conservative? Liberal?

Postby RC » Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:13 pm

PS, I stand corrected, you made the distinction twice before I caught it:

"I would submit that I offered a definition of conservation, not conservative."

That is a very weak argument for a very strong link. IMO :D (See look, I'm smiling, you're still smiling aren't you?)
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Re: Conservative? Liberal?

Postby RC » Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:25 pm

When my father was a lad, he listened to the wolves at night. Bears, elk, moose would wander down mainstreet. Buffalo (thats what we called em) still roamed free.
When I was a lass, I saw one moose and one bear near town and I've never seen or heard a wolf in my life except in a zoo. I skipped school to go swimming in the hot springs a little more often than I should have and there is a small herd of buffalo on a ranch nearby.
It's not like WY is suffering from a population boom but it is suffering from mining and drilling. So in a state that is politically conservative, you will find a few environmental conservationists.

The difference between the meanings here is what the thread is about and I think Shap's Teddy Roosevelt example of an original conservative resembles those environmentalists, not the mining/drilling companies.
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Re: Conservative? Liberal?

Postby Shapley » Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:48 pm

RC,

I always smile, even now when my head is spinning.

I think I've gotten lost in this discussion, except that I haven't defined lost or discussion, so it's entirely possible that I'm not or it isn't. :D

I supported Bush, not because he's 100% right, but he was more right than his opponent, in my view. He's not a conservative, but he's more conservative, as is currently not-defined-but-understood by the politicos and the media.


I have no qualms with alternative energy. I love nuclear power. I think solar power is hot. I think geothermal is cool. Power from wind and waves and earth are alright by me. The reason they are aligned with the "left" is that they generally advocate governmental financing of alternative energy research, and they generally favor government mandates (CAFE standards, etc.) to promote or require the implementation of the alternatives they favor. They also are generally very selective in the alternatives they support (i.e. their rabid opposition to nuclear power).

With this in mind, I would define right and conservative as those who favor free market approaches to solving the majority of societal ills, and implementation of government solutions at the lowest level practical (i.e. municipal, county, and state powers). Similarly, I would define left and liberal as those who favor governmental solutions to such problems, and implementation of programs on the national level whenever possible.

As I have stated before: Democrats favor implementing programs at the highest level and applying them selectively, Republicans favor implementing programs at the lowest level and implementing them effectively.

V/R
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<small>[ 11-23-2004, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Shapley ]</small>
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Re: Conservative? Liberal?

Postby Shapley » Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:59 pm

RC,

One thing I could not find in my rapid perusal of the links related to the Coal Bed Methane Gas issue is the question of when and how the government obtained the mineral rights to the lands in question. Did the land owners aquire the land with full awareness that they had no say in the removal of the mineral deposits? Were they forced to give up their rights after land ownership? Did they sell or otherwise deed over those rights? It is a very serious question.

In Illinois, where I live, such rights are often sold, and property is often aquired without acquisition to the mineral rights beneath (It can mean a significant savings if you don't mind a strip mine in your driveway). It is, simply, one of the things you want to know before you acquire a piece of property. If your lawyer didn't ask, get a new lawyer.

If you have any knowledge of this question, let me know.

V/R
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Re: Conservative? Liberal?

Postby piqaboo » Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:21 pm

Nit-picking piq here:

Cutting of large lumber doesnt reduce fire risk in forests. Frequent small burns or other means of clearing brush does that. The materials most likely to burn are not desirable to logging companies. Logging roads and clearcuts lead to wicked erosion, in only one wet season.

Shap, you conserv-iberal-commie-republican-proto-pseudo-archtypical-......., you made me laugh out loud! Now I have to come up with an explanation that will not involve use of internet for non businses application. Molto grazie - my life is now more joyful!
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Re: Conservative? Liberal?

Postby shostakovich » Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:30 pm

From Shap: "With this in mind, I would define right and conservative as those who favor free market approaches to solving the majority of societal ills, and implementation of government solutions at the lowest level practical (i.e. municipal, county, and state powers). Similarly, I would define left and liberal as those who favor governmental solutions to such problems, and implementation of programs on the national level whenever possible."

I think you have categorized Republican and Democrat rather than defined "conservative" and "liberal". Haggis made me wonder if there has been a switch: Democrats are conservative and Republicans liberal now. It may be.
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Re: Conservative? Liberal?

Postby RC » Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:31 am

Shap,
lol! You know, the only problem I have with what you've been saying is that folks who don't know what we're losing often consider the environment a fair price to pay. It seldom is, IMO, and I would be a lot further "left" than yourself on this subject. I wince when I hear someone use the term "environmental extremist".

If you have never woken up in the morning to nothing but the sound of meadowlarks and slept at night with no light but the moon, you really can't imagine what I'm talking about.

Try this experiment: see if you can find somewhere that you can spend an entire day without making human contact of any kind. No traffic noise (not even distant), no electric lighting, no man made roads, no domestic dog barks. Find a place that has experienced no human development or "management".

Better yet, shut off your TV & computer, hold really still and see if you hear any birds through the walls. If you don't, go outside and hold really still. See if you hear any birds. Identify each natural thing you hear and see. Is there a great variety? Compare it to when you were a kid.

As far as the mineral rights in my post example, IMO, it matters very little. In that particular area, it would be worth going to the very top (which was Clinton at the time), to protect the environment. I mentioned in another thread that we practice eminent domain for sports stadium parking lots, realtively speaking, it's worth it.

P.S., I still have the mineral rights to a chunk of land my fathers family homesteaded in west central WY and I doubt the current residents realize that. It makes no difference, I will pass it on to my children and hope they do the same. Hopefully, by the time anyone decides to drill oil or mine uranium or coal, we will have an alternative and the price will not be tempting. If we don't come up with alternative sources and someone wants whats in the earth there, it won't matter if I have "rights" or not.

Piq, I agree regarding lumbering. Thought I'd let that slide since Shap actually said "wise use" and spoke of farming. It is possible to farm trees. (although he never did define "wise"...OR "extremist" ;) ).

Yes, I am a tree hugger through and through. In barfle's strict definition, I am the ultimate conservative!
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Re: Conservative? Liberal?

Postby haggis » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:45 am

RC,

"... Some estimates suggest that as many as 50,000 gas wells will be drilled around Wyoming over the next decade."

It seems you have reason for concern...
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Re: Conservative? Liberal?

Postby hal 9000 » Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:11 am

I have never figured the whole Conservative / Liberal crap out. I know what they mean by definition, but it seems to me that the group that is labelled conservative is anything but, and vice versa for the Liberal group. I think it is just an over-generalized talking point created to keep the status quo from truly analyzing an issue. All they have to hear is if the issue is conservative/liberal and they take the side of their preference. How many ask the question "Why is this considered conservative/liberal?"
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Re: Conservative? Liberal?

Postby GreatCarouser » Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:48 am

The flood of American liberals sneaking across the border into Canada has intensified in the past week, sparking calls for increased patrols to stop the illegal immigration.

The re-election of President Bush is prompting the exodus among Left-leaning citizens who fear they'll soon be required to hunt, pray and agree with Bill O'Reilly.

Canadian border farmers say it's not uncommon to see dozens of sociology professors, animal rights activists and Unitarians crossing their fields at night.

"I went out to milk the cows the other day, and there was a Hollywood producer huddled in the barn," said Manitoba farmer Red Greenfield, whose acreage borders North Dakota. "The producer was cold, exhausted and hungry. He asked me if I could spare a latte and some free-range chicken. When I said I didn't have any, he left. Didn't even get a chance to show him my screenplay, eh?"

In an effort to stop the illegal aliens, Greenfield erected higher fences but the liberals scaled them. So he tried installing speakers that blare Rush Limbaugh across the fields.

"Not real effective," he said. "The liberals still got through, and Rush annoyed the cows so much they wouldn't give milk."

Officials are particularly concerned about smugglers who meet liberals near the Canadian border, pack them into Volvo station wagons, drive them across the border and leave them to fend for themselves.

"A lot of these people are not prepared for rugged conditions," an Ontario border patrolman said. "I found one carload without a drop of drinking water. They did have a nice little Napa Valley cabernet, though."

When liberals are caught, they're sent back across the border, often wailing loudly that they fear retribution from conservatives. Rumors have been circulating about the Bush administration establishing re-education camps in which liberals will be forced to drink domestic beer and watch NASCAR.

In the days since the election, liberals have turned to sometimes ingenious ways of crossing the border.

Some have taken to posing as senior citizens on bus trips to buy cheap Canadian prescription drugs. After catching a half-dozen young vegans disguised in powdered wigs, Canadian immigration authorities began stopping buses and quizzing the supposed senior-citizen passengers.

"If they can't identify the accordion player on The Lawrence Welk Show, we get suspicious about their age," an official said.

Canadian citizens have complained that the illegal immigrants are creating an organic-broccoli shortage and renting all the good Susan Sarandon movies.

"I feel sorry for American liberals, but the Canadian economy just cant support them," an Ottawa resident said. "How many art-history majors does one country need?"

In an effort to ease tensions between the United States and Canada, Vice President Dick Cheney met with the Canadian ambassador and pledged that the administration would take steps to reassure liberals, a source close to Cheney said.

"We're going to have some Peter, Paul & Mary concerts. And we might put some endangered species on postage stamps. The president is determined to reach out."
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Re: Conservative? Liberal?

Postby Shapley » Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:59 am

Looks like someone's been reading the Onion again. :)

V/R
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Re: Conservative? Liberal?

Postby GreatCarouser » Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:00 am

Originally posted by Haggis:

"... Some estimates suggest that as many as 50,000 gas wells will be drilled around Wyoming over the next decade."

It's rumored the real source for this number was Cheney's last letter to Santa. :D
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Re: Conservative? Liberal?

Postby Shapley » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:27 pm

RC and Piq,

I have to disagree with your view of logging. Selective cutting and even small-area clear cutting are useful tools in healthy forest management.

RC,

I live in rural southern Illinois. A very large portion of my home county comprises part of the Shawnee National Forest. My home is on eighteen acres, approximately half of which is wooded. Deer, turkey, and the occasional bobcat and fox cross my property regularly. Bald eagles soar overhead in the winter (I'm less than a mile from the Mississippi River, where they winter). Coyotes sing as the run along the creek behind my house early evening and morning, as they pass going to and from their dens. Crows perch in the tops of the trees around my home and call to each other nearly every morning. Redwinged Blackbirds perch on the tops of fenceposts. Scarlet tanagers call from their nests in the woods less than fifty feet from my back door. Cardinals, goldfinches, scarlet finches, and hummingbirds are regular visitors. Indigo Buntings (Absolutely beautiful!) are to numerous to count in the spring and summer. Brownheaded cowbirds dine alongside my guineas and roosters. Quail live in the underbruch alongside my drive. Squirrels, rabbits, and chipmonks are plentiful. During the summer, I can swim in the pool at night, with no lights on, and enjoy the quiet of the evening and the beauty of the stars at night. Lightening bugs look like Christmas tree lights in the surrounding woods. Dragonflies and butterflies fill the air above the pasture during the daytime. The lights of Cape Girardeau, MO, about twelve miles away, obscure the night sky in the northwest, otherwise I can see stars all the way down to the horizon.

Traffic noise is noticable, with Highway 3 about a half-mile away. During the summer, the trees obscure most of the noise, but when the trees are bare, the noice is quite prevalent. The roar of a logging truck on the blacktop near the house reminds me that commerce isn't far away, as does the occasional roar of a freight train passing through Thebes, a couple miles away. I can't escape the barking of domestic dogs, as I have two of my own.

I grew up in a small town in rural Missouri, and few of these were available to me when home. A short walk of a couple of miles to the country would expose me a variety of wildlife, mostly snakes, opossums, squirrel and rabbit. Deer were rare. Wild turkey were unheard of.

From my small vantage point, wildlife is plentiful, and nature is thriving. I can't hear the blasting at the quarry a few miles away, but I can hear the riverboats as the pass on the Mississippi, and their searchlights light the sky as the round the tricky bends in the River.

Sorry to ramble, but I wan't you to know that I do enjoy the pleasure of nature, and from my vantage point, it is being managed well. Occasionally someone will botch a clearcutting or ruin the view, and power lines and cell towers mar the landscape, but that is the price we pay for power for our hot tubs and modern conveniences.

V/R
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Re: Conservative? Liberal?

Postby RC » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:07 pm

from Haggis: "... Some estimates suggest that as many as 50,000 gas wells will be drilled around Wyoming over the next decade."

It seems you have reason for concern...
Here, have a look, this is an existing mine in the Powder river basin: <img src="http://www.monkeyview.net/id/3/2003/wyoming/tripup/salt_lake1.jpg" alt=" - " />

from the Hanna Basin:
<img src="http://ut.water.usgs.gov/Basins/GreenRiverBasin/photos/0927660001.jpg" alt=" - " />

Lastly and closest to my heart, the Wind River Basin (which used to be part of the Wind River Indian Reservation):
<img src="http://www.jkbrand.com/jk-0001.jpg" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_sgg/personal/rajrlink/images/south_pass.jpeg" alt=" - " />

GC: Don't forget Mr. Cheney grew up here too. Go figure...


OK, I'm going to go puke now.

<small>[ 11-24-2004, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: RC ]</small>
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Re: Conservative? Liberal?

Postby RC » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:10 pm

Shap,
Sounds wonderful - enjoy and thanks for sharing!
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Re: Conservative? Liberal?

Postby Shapley » Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:57 pm

Oh, one other point.

When I was in the navy, I was on the USS Carl Vinson. On the starboard side, abaft the island, there was crane mounted for the purpose of rigging aircraft and other loads on board. It had a small platform, we called the crane deck, for access. Oftentimes, at sea, with dog zebra (darken ship) set throught the ship (minimal external lights) and no flight ops, I would go out onto the crane deck, recline on the flat surface of the stowed boom, and look at the beauty of the night. It would be very quiet, just the hull gliding through the waves, an occasional machinery sound from the flight deck above, and the very quiet sound of the screws turning at a low RPM some 75 feet below me, submerged in the sea. Even though there were 6,500 sailors on the other side of the steel bulkhead from me, the isolation was near perfect.

That is a solitude you can scarcely obtain anywhere else in the world. I dream of traveling the sea again, to experience the quiet solitude that it alone can provide, only without the 6,500 units of extra cargo. :D

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Re: Conservative? Liberal?

Postby shostakovich » Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:03 pm

Could it be that people who live in nicely wooded regions see less need for environmental protection than those who live in more urban, forest-deprived areas?
I've lived in eastern Mass (higly developed) and Conn (a bit less so), and the romantic idea of unspoiled nature (SOMEWHERE) is strong in me. I also love 19th C. American landscapes. Many of the artists were moved to capture the land, the wildlife, the indigenous people before "civilization" ran over them.
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Postby OperaTenor » Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:01 pm

This, from another forum:

When the various factions of Right Wing propagandists started mapping out their propaganda strategies in the 1990's they figured they would define terms in their own way, such as defining "Liberalism" in such a way as to make it appear unreasonable and ridiculous. The various commentators and other strategists then flooded the media long and hard with this kind of talk so that when their rather substantial audience thought of the word "Liberal", it meant "Liberal" =as defined by the extreme Right= which automatically meant the right was at an advantage in the argument.

You could not take up the Liberal side in an argument without appearing to be arguing for the ridiculous.

Conversely, they cast "Conservative" in only the most positive terms.

So since the right wing has been largely able to define the terms in the national debate, they automatically win the debate in the minds of the many who have been suckered in to their game.

This has been a very effective strategy and it continues today.
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Postby jamiebk » Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:22 pm

I don't consider myself a liberal or a conservative. I decide issues/positions on merit and not what a particular party or social orientation may decree as its position.
Jamie

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Postby Shapley » Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:37 pm

OT,

RE:
When the various factions of Right Wing propagandists started mapping out their propaganda strategies in the 1990's they figured they would define terms in their own way, such as defining "Liberalism" in such a way as to make it appear unreasonable and ridiculous.


I think the current understanding (I'm unwilling to use the word 'definition' since, based on the previous posts on this thread, no clear definition exists) of the word 'Liberal' far predates the 1990's. Democrats were avoiding being defined as such during the reign of Ronaldus Maximus.

It was in the late '70s, IMHO, that the word 'liberal' began to take on negative meaning to a large segment of the population. The 'radical left' was dominated by quasi-socialists, who were categorized as 'liberal', as much by themselves as by the 'various factions of the Right Wing propogandists'.

I would point out that it was Michael Dukakis who was bemoaning the connotations that had been attached to the word, and then he stated that he was proud to be a liberal.

Of course, it doesn't help much that a lot of what self-proclaimed liberals support is unreasonable and ridiculous. :D

V/R
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Last edited by Shapley on Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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