Social Security Crisis?

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Re: Social Security Crisis?

Postby Trumpetmaster » Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:12 am

Originally posted by shostakovich:
This from Whitehouse.gov: "A young person who earns an average of $35,000 a year over his or her career would have nearly a quarter million dollars saved in his or her own account upon retirement."

This from Shos: "BULLSHIT!!!"

A person who earns an average of $35,000 over his/her career will be falling below the poverty level somewhere during that career.

The 256 page document referenced at the top of the page (I read 16. Bush probably didn't), as well as the above, assumes half a century of predictability. That, in itself, is a crock.

Now on to Kent Conrad.
Just read it. Hooray for Kent Conrad, whoever he might be.
Shos for fiscal responsibility
Shos,
I agree with you. It is BS and a big crock!
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Re: Social Security Crisis?

Postby shostakovich » Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:11 pm

Hi all. I saw somebody on TV who had an explanation for why Republicans are not all behind the privatization plan. It's the 2006 elections. Privatization is currently unpopular with most voters, so many Republicans are just biding their time. If that's the case, it could resurface in 2007.

If the 2006 elections are motivating Republicans, they must also be motivating Democrats to propose NO solutions at this time. The tried and true solution, IMO, involves the "T" word. It might come down to privatization vs. taxation in 2007, at which time the national debt will be 2 years greater than it is now. It should also be clear then that Bush's phantom plan to reduce the deficit by 50% just isn't happening.

We can only dream in vain for a non-partisan congress that might have a chance to consider "what's right" over being on the "winning team".
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Re: Social Security Crisis?

Postby OperaTenor » Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:27 am

This gets me back to my whine about the amount of money and time spent on being elected and reelected. Perhaps if politicians were allowed a very limited amount of time and money to spend on elections, they might be a little more focused on their real job.
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Re: Social Security Crisis?

Postby GreatCarouser » Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:00 pm

"This is from today's NY Times",he said, as he lobbed it in from the safety of the 'Fire-Resistant Bunker<patent pending>.

March 4, 2005
OP-ED COLUMNIST
Deficits and Deceit
By PAUL KRUGMAN

Four years ago, Alan Greenspan urged Congress to cut taxes, asserting that the federal government was in imminent danger of paying off too much debt.

On Wednesday the Fed chairman warned Congress of the opposite fiscal danger: he asserted that there would be large budget deficits for the foreseeable future, leading to an unsustainable rise in federal debt. But he counseled against reversing the tax cuts, calling instead for cuts in Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.

Does anyone still take Mr. Greenspan's pose as a nonpartisan font of wisdom seriously?

When Mr. Greenspan made his contorted argument for tax cuts back in 2001, his reputation made it hard for many observers to admit the obvious: he was mainly looking for some way to do the Bush administration a political favor. But there's no reason to be taken in by his equally weak, contorted argument against reversing those cuts today.

To put Mr. Greenspan's game of fiscal three-card monte in perspective, remember that the push for Social Security privatization is only part of the right's strategy for dismantling the New Deal and the Great Society. The other big piece of that strategy is the use of tax cuts to "starve the beast."

Until the 1970's conservatives tended to be open about their disdain for Social Security and Medicare. But honesty was bad politics, because voters value those programs.

So conservative intellectuals proposed a bait-and-switch strategy: First, advocate tax cuts, using whatever tactics you think may work - supply-side economics, inflated budget projections, whatever. Then use the resulting deficits to argue for slashing government spending.

And that's the story of the last four years. In 2001, President Bush and Mr. Greenspan justified tax cuts with sunny predictions that the budget would remain comfortably in surplus. But Mr. Bush's advisers knew that the tax cuts would probably cause budget problems, and welcomed the prospect.

In fact, Mr. Bush celebrated the budget's initial slide into deficit. In the summer of 2001 he called plunging federal revenue "incredibly positive news" because it would "put a straitjacket" on federal spending.

To keep that straitjacket on, however, those who sold tax cuts with the assurance that they were easily affordable must convince the public that the cuts can't be reversed now that those assurances have proved false. And Mr. Greenspan has once again tried to come to the president's aid, insisting this week that we should deal with deficits "primarily, if not wholly," by slashing Social Security and Medicare because tax increases would "pose significant risks to economic growth."

Really? America prospered for half a century under a level of federal taxes higher than the one we face today. According to the administration's own estimates, Mr. Bush's second term will see the lowest tax take as a percentage of G.D.P. since the Truman administration. And don't forget that President Clinton's 1993 tax increase ushered in an economic boom. Why, exactly, are tax increases out of the question?

O.K., enough about Mr. Greenspan. The real news is the growing evidence that the political theory behind the Bush tax cuts was as wrong as the economic theory.

According to starve-the-beast doctrine, right-wing politicians can use the big deficits generated by tax cuts as an excuse to slash social insurance programs. Mr. Bush's advisers thought that it would prove especially easy to sell benefit cuts in the context of Social Security privatization because the president could pretend that a plan that sharply cut benefits would actually be good for workers.

But the theory isn't working. As soon as voters heard that privatization would involve benefit cuts, support for Social Security "reform" plunged. Another sign of the theory's falsity: across the nation, Republican governors, finding that voters really want adequate public services, are talking about tax increases.

The best bet now is that Mr. Bush will manage to make the poor suffer, but fail to make a dent in the great middle-class entitlement programs.

And the consequence of the failure of the starve-the-beast theory is a looming fiscal crisis - Mr. Greenspan isn't wrong about that. The middle class won't give up programs that are essential to its financial security; the right won't give up tax cuts that it sold on false pretenses. The only question now is when foreign investors, who have financed our deficits so far, will decide to pull the plug.

E-mail: krugman@nytimes.com
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Re: Social Security Crisis?

Postby RC » Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:48 pm

Speaking of Greenspan, had you all heard of his tax REFORM ideas?

It may seem unlike me, but I actually liked the idea of a sales tax of some sort which is what Greenspan is proposing.

My qualifier is to exclude necessity items from sales tax. That's where things get difficult.

I've heard many proposals for SS reform now and I still haven't made up my mind. Seems like their are as many options as the their are baby boomers and we should be able to find something acceptable.

The only thing I have against "privatization", is that it isn't (privatizing). The government should either abolish it or fund it and keep their grimey mits off. Just my opinion.

"Social Security". hmmmmm "Social...Security". If it were truly privatized, it couldn't be SS could it?
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Re: Social Security Crisis?

Postby OperaTenor » Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:18 pm

RC, as usual, my hero. :)

Am I correct in thinking that under this "privatization", all we're doing is allowing Wall Street to get its hands on our money, putting it at huge relative risk, and adding another profit syphon to the chain?

To me, it's a black and white issue, just as you say.

Is Greenspan getting senile? He has completley reversed his position on Federal deficit. What's up with that?!!

:confused:
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Re: Social Security Crisis?

Postby BigJon » Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:20 pm

Originally posted by OperaTenor:
Am I correct in thinking that under this "privatization", all we're doing is allowing Wall Street to get its hands on our money, putting it at huge relative risk, and adding another profit syphon to the chain?
Wah! Wah! Wah! Big, bad, bully Wall Street. Fear their power and thier greed. Wah! Wah! Wah!

Won't somebody think of the children?

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Re: Social Security Crisis?

Postby piqaboo » Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:08 am

IF the goal is to let me put my money in the market, for my future benefit, then why take it away from me first, and add the cost of the gov't taxing it, accounting for it, watching to make sure I invest it, and tracking the disbursement?
Why not just cut the tax? Cheaper for the gov't, better for me, personally?

I thought the point of SS was that the govt knew/figured many people wouldnt save/invest, so it was going to mandate a savings plan. Fine, it did so, i grew up with it, and I can live with it if it continues. What I dont understand is the benefits of making a gov't run "private investment" system. It HAS to cost more than just giving me my money would, AND it doesnt solve the problem of the temporary 20-40 year babyboomer shortfall.
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Re: Social Security Crisis?

Postby piqaboo » Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:11 am

Originally posted by BigJon:
Originally posted by OperaTenor:
[b] Am I correct in thinking that under this "privatization", all we're doing is allowing Wall Street to get its hands on our money, putting it at huge relative risk, and adding another profit syphon to the chain?
Wah! Wah! Wah! Big, bad, bully Wall Street. Fear their power and thier greed. Wah! Wah! Wah!

Won't somebody think of the children?

BigJon [/b]
Perhaps memory is incorrect, BJ, but werent you the one who said you didnt like the programs offered, and didnt want to lose your investment gains to the fees charged by the funds the gov't would allow you to use? Seems to me thats precisely the same as OT is saying above. :p
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Re: Social Security Crisis?

Postby analog » Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:43 am

:....AND it doesnt solve the problem of the temporary 20-40 year babyboomer shortfall."

Won't that boomer shortfall affect Wall Street as well? Mightn't the stock market make a turn down when boomers switch from building up their 401K's to cashing them out? Unless something replaces the boomers' cash inflow to the market...
Cogito ergo doleo.
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Re: Social Security Crisis?

Postby RC » Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:20 am

Originally posted by OperaTenor:
RC, as usual, my hero. :)

Am I correct in thinking that under this "privatization", all we're doing is allowing Wall Street to get its hands on our money, putting it at huge relative risk, and adding another profit syphon to the chain?

To me, it's a black and white issue, just as you say.

Is Greenspan getting senile? He has completley reversed his position on Federal deficit. What's up with that?!!

:confused:
Yes, Greenspan has done a 180.
I've been thinking about the sales tax alternative for a long time but it's huge and I haven't given it enough attention to know what I'm talking about. Seems like we should investigate at least.

And obviously, there are a lot of concerns on the proposed SS plans; fees, risk etc...
One good thing would be that SS being "privatized" might actually promote growth, help buoy the stock market. That could be a good thing.

However, I'm with you OT, stocks that would promote entrepeneurs/innovation are risky and unlikely to be included in a SS portfolio. That leaves you dishing out to the big boys and we already know how I feel about corporate welfare. This just seems like one more weird kind of corporate welfare. It's like taking money from citizens by force and then handing it over to the corporations that enslave us all. :confused: (strong wording, I know).
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Re: Social Security Crisis?

Postby GreatCarouser » Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:30 am

Some of you may have an interest in reading Senator Boxer's 2/11/05 Social Security speech.
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Re: Social Security Crisis?

Postby OperaTenor » Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:57 am

Thanks, GC, it's a worthwhile piece to read, and offers a very common sense perspective on this.

[rant] The GWB administration is indeed trying to condidtion us to believe there is a crisis where there isn't one. That doesn't mean there is no problem, but it doesn't mean we need to completely scrap what we have to the extent they want.

Senator Boxer nails it - just follow the money. Once again, that's what it's all about, and that's once again where RC pegs it - this will be a cash cow and corporate welfare courtesy once again of the tax paying American public. I can't believe you supply-side "free market" folks out there are falling for this.

I keep getting the impression the GWB/PNAC crowd is in the process of envelope-pushing: "The suckers bought into our last ploy, so let's just be a little more blatant this time and see if we can still get away with it."

We should all be writing our elected representatives and telling them to do whatever they can to stop this. All this will do is force us to hand over money to big business so they can gamble with it. [/rant]
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Re: Social Security Crisis?

Postby sadie » Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:29 pm

Bush wants privatization, it MUST be wrong. THEN, I look for why.
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Exactly my vies, Shos. I think the Repubs have miscalculated on this one - seniors are seeing "red"- and if the Dems don't want to sing the "blues" again they'll use this issue in the next election
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Re: Social Security Crisis?

Postby shostakovich » Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:24 pm

Pretty cute, "colorful" response, Sadie.
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Re: Social Security Crisis?

Postby sadie » Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:37 am

Just goin' with the media's oversimplified portrayal of how our contry is divided. According to the pundits...The "have values" citizens apparantly live(with their morality) in the middle/west/south of our country, while the "amoral liberals" live on either coast, dodging blizzrds, mudslides, floods and the like!
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Re: Social Security Crisis?

Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:56 am

You forgot the brush fires and the earthquakes. We have those, too.

I figure most of us on the two coasts probably discount the media to some degree, just by habit. I suspect that the guys in Atlanta got lost in a funhouse, I'm pretty sure the New York based media are from another planet, and I am absolutely certain that the Los Angeles based services are from a different dimension.

The best thing you can say for reporters is, they didn't go to law school. :D
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Re: Social Security Crisis?

Postby Trumpetmaster » Tue Mar 08, 2005 11:06 am

Originally posted by Selma in Sandy Eggo:


The best thing you can say for reporters is, they didn't go to law school. :D
ROFL
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Re: Social Security Crisis?

Postby Shapley » Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:36 pm

Sadie,

RE:Exactly my vies, Shos. I think the Repubs have miscalculated on this one - seniors are seeing "red"- and if the Dems don't want to sing the "blues" again they'll use this issue in the next election

I'm not sure that's entirely true. The proposal isn't new, and it didn't keep seniors from supporting GWB the last election. If the Democrats want to win this issue, they have provide something substantive. The Dems have no credibility on this issue, because most of those who are declaring that there is no crisis are on the record saying there was a crisis during the 2000 campaign, when Al Gore was sporting his "fix".

Most seniors can see the problem, even if the Dems can't. They may not like GWB's solution, but they are glad to see something "besides more taxes" offered to fix it. Ending the earnings cap only changes it to a welfare program, at least as regards the wealthier wage earners. They will be forced to pay into the system knowing that they cannot hope ever to see a decent return on their "investment". Most people don't want to see the program become another form of welfare.

In addition, many seniors like the idea that there will be something to pass on to their heirs, which privatization offers and the current system does not. Under the current program, once you die, your "investment" goes to the government.

V/R
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Re: Social Security Crisis?

Postby OperaTenor » Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:56 pm

I'm sure seniors like the risk of losing it all - all of it that's left over after the "privates" get their take, that is. I have yet to see an explanation of just how our principal is supposed to be protected, as GWB claimed.

This is simply converting what was once a guaranteed savings institution for all into government money-grubbing and corporate welfare. I still can't believe anyone actually buys this load of garbage.
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