Iran next?

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Re: Iran next?

Postby haggis » Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:14 am

OT, I thought this was particularly interesting and thought you would find it so.
It’s from a blog

Regime Change Iran

The post had too many links for me to copy, so if you want more detail go to the site.

I think the observations about a military change are probably correct; we don't have enough troops to effect a change in Iran militarily, which leaves diplomacy and trade embargos (did you know that an embargo is consider as an act of war??)

"I believe the President has settled on the direction he is going to pursue with Iran. If I am reading the tea leaves correctly, it would appear a pattern has begun to emerge in the recent statements by President Bush, Condolezza Rice and others.

What is the new strategy?

Let's begin with President Bush's State of the Union speech. The President warned the Iranian regime that he is willing to significantly ramp up his support for the Iranian people:
"And to the Iranian people, I say tonight:

As you stand for your own liberty, America stands with you."
The President has recently warned Iran to end its nuclear enrichment program and that he has not taken the military option off the table. At the same time, he also made clear his interest in pursuing a "diplomatic solution."

Why A diplomatic solution?

First, military action in Iran would likely be counter productive. Military action would almost certainly have the unintended consequence of killing large numbers of civilians and thus create a "rally around the government" effect. This would provide a tremendous opportunity for the regime to argue that the US government does not really "care about the people" of Iran. Thus alienating the very people we want to support.

Second, it is also unlikely that such military action could permanently stop Iran's nuclear effort. To accomplish this would require an invasion of Iran and therefore a much larger military force than we have available at this time, so we are told.

Third, Europe is unlikely to ever support military action against Iran and the US public would also find it hard to support it unless there was an imminent threat. (Nearly everyone would want irrefutable proof of Iran's nuclear weapons program).

So what options are left?

An effective non military response to the Iranian threat would require the administration find an issue that is universally accepted in order to gain international support. Such international support was essential in the recent popular revolt in the Ukraine.

Such an issue already exists.

I believe the issue the administration intends to focus on is human rights in Iran.

If you follow the news on Iran, the administration has begun focusing on the human rights issue as it relates to Iran. Here are a few examples:

President Bush alluded to it in his inaugural address:
From the day of our Founding, we have proclaimed that every man and woman on this earth has rights, and dignity, and matchless value, because they bear the image of the Maker of Heaven and earth. Across the generations we have proclaimed the imperative of self-government, because no one is fit to be a master, and no one deserves to be a slave. Advancing these ideals is the mission that created our Nation. It is the honorable achievement of our fathers. Now it is the urgent requirement of our nation's security, and the calling of our time. ...
America will not pretend that jailed dissidents prefer their chains, or that women welcome humiliation and servitude, or that any human being aspires to live at the mercy of bullies.
We will encourage reform in other governments by making clear that success in our relations will require the decent treatment of their own people. America's belief in human dignity will guide our policies, yet rights must be more than the grudging concessions of dictators; they are secured by free dissent and the participation of the governed. In the long run, there is no justice without freedom, and there can be no human rights without human liberty.
Condoleezza Rice:
Iranians "suffer under a regime that has been completely unwilling to deal with their aspirations and that has an appalling human rights record". BBC
Even Senator Brownback, the new chairman of the Helsinki Commission says he plans to highlight Iranian human rights issues with Europe. The NY Sun reports:
The plan by Senator Brownback, a Republican from Kansas, is in keeping with the president's commitment to spread freedom throughout the world...

Senator Brownback said he planned to publicize the plight of Iranian dissidents in hearings before the Helsinki Commission, the American body created in 1976 to engage the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe on their treatment of political prisoners and human rights. American envoys would often read the names of political prisoners aloud at commission-related meetings, at first to embarrass their Soviet counterparts. Later this technique proved effective, when in the twilight of the Cold War many political prisoners were released.

"We are going to bring up human rights issues and what is taking place in Iran aggressively," he said.
Europe and the UN have a long history of advocating human rights. Europe has tied increased trade with Iran to improvements in their human rights record. European leaders advocacy for Human Rights in Iran bought them popular political support at home at very little cost.

Europeans are proud of their leaders stand for Human Rights. It was no surprise to Europeans that the Iranian human rights lawyer, Shirin Ebadi, won the 2003 Nobel Peace Prize.

If the US makes Human Rights in Iran a centerpiece of its Iran policy, the EU and the UN will have to support it. Russia and China would find it difficult to oppose it.

President Bush's support for "their issue" will likely be perceived by Europeans generally as a European victory. Popular support could force their leaders to join the US effort.

If Iran refuses to permanently end its uranium enrichment program, as they claim, the EU will have to withdraw its offer of increased trade.

Instead, I would then expect an ever increasing demand of the international community to end all trade (the EU's only real weapon) until the regime guarantees the Iranian people's human rights.

Already British firms such as BP have declared that they will not invest further in Iran. US firms have also taken similar positions and I expect we will see an ever growing number of international firms ending their business relations with the Iranian regime.

Why will this help bring down the regime?

First, the people of Iran will at long last receive the international attention and support they have been pleading for. This support will encourage the people to stand against the regime and various elements in government will be forced to decide whether to support the people of Iran or their unpopular leaders.

Thus the regime will face a serious dilemma.

On the one hand, cracking down on dissent will further alienate the regime and likely result in an end to international investments/trade in Iran.

On the other hand, the regime cannot comply with this without risking encouraging a popular revolt.

Iran's presidential elections are scheduled for June. The hardline elements in Iran have been hoping to further consolidate their power and will not likely be interested in being pressured by the international community on human rights.

If the Iranian regime cracks down on popular dissent this time, the international community will be watching as never before. Crack downs will lead to further doubts by the international business community. As more firms pull away from Iran, investment dollars will dry up.

Iran needs the investment dollars to keep the regime in power. Unemployment is already unbearable. Significant increases in unemployment will only fuel more civil unrest.

It would appear the regime will be in a no win situation.

President Bush is about to travel to Europe. If I am right, we will see a mending of relations and a new unity among the US and the EU.

Time appears to be running out for the Mullahs of Iran. It may prove to be a very hot summer in Iran."
Haggis

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Re: Iran next?

Postby piqaboo » Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:08 pm

Perhaps not spineless. Perhaps the stuff he muttered earlier was a front, and this "go in shooting" guy is the real GWB. (<ick>).
Then again, "re-invention" is a family tradition. Bush the elder couldnt win as the fairly moderate guy he ran as twice. So he copied Mr Ronny, put a gag-order on his wife* and whammy - the guy gets the job! What else is a politician to do? (Be he republican or be she democrat)

*Im sure Barbie did a self imposed gag order. She didnt mutter word one about how offensive his new antiabortion stand was until after he was retired frm teh presidency.
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Re: Iran next?

Postby Dvorak » Thu Feb 03, 2005 5:15 pm

The EU can't get tough with Iran if it is in need of Iranian oil. One can only hope.

WMD's were around during the Clinton administration. What happened to them? I think Syria has them now. We'll never know for sure.
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Re: Iran next?

Postby barfle » Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:12 pm

Originally posted by piqaboo:
Perhaps not spineless.
Only when it's not HIS spine on the line, IMNSHO.
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Re: Iran next?

Postby Trumpetmaster » Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:15 pm

Fred Flintstone is requesting
what IMNSHO means.
Signed,
the uninformed
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Re: Iran next?

Postby barfle » Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:17 pm

In My Not So Humble Opinion
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Re: Iran next?

Postby Trumpetmaster » Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:18 pm

Barfle,
Thanks, the uninformed has been enlightened!
:)
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Re: Iran next?

Postby OperaTenor » Fri Feb 11, 2005 10:50 am

Hong,

If you're still out there, what are your thoughts about this?
"To help mend the world is true religion."
- William Penn

http://www.one.org
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Re: Iran next?

Postby Trumpetmaster » Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:06 am

Can't believe N. Korea is taking this position.
This will be interesting.
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Re: Iran next?

Postby Marye » Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:19 pm

TM... why can't you believe this?
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Re: Iran next?

Postby Trumpetmaster » Fri Feb 11, 2005 1:31 pm

Mary,
I know N. Korea takes a hard line approach. Surprised that they won't talk to anyone else but the U.S. and being so demanding about it.

I don't think the U.S. will openly come out on the International stage and speak to N. Korea as it would seem that we would be giving into their "Demands". (just like the terrorists)

TM
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Re: Iran next?

Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Fri Feb 11, 2005 1:41 pm

N Korea reminds me of one of those raggedy grey rat terriers, the nasty-tempered ones, viciously threatening the mastiffs. This works OK up to the point where the little dog actually bites one of the big ones.

The big dog gets bit. The little dog gets eaten.
>^..^<
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Re: Iran next?

Postby Trumpetmaster » Fri Feb 11, 2005 1:51 pm

Selma,
Well Said!
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Re: Iran next?

Postby lliam » Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:30 am

America's empire builders set sights on Iran
-----------------------------------------------

These days the motto of the U.S. Tourist Board could be: "Come and visit America, before America comes to visit you...” According to former weapons inspector Scott Ritter, the U.S. plans to attack Iran in June. Sensible people might wonder if this could possibly be true, given the utter and bloody Vietnam-style shambles that characterizes the tenuous American occupation of Iraq. Nor is the situation very different in Afghanistan, where U.S. personnel venture out of Kabul very much at their own risk. Iran is a country with roughly three times the population and area of Iraq, plus a mountainous terrain that would be ideal for guerrilla resistance. But the 'chicken hawks' and 'Dr Strangelove’s' of the present American administration by definition are not sensible men. As Bush and Co. are also being prodded along by the inevitable Israel lobby and contractors like Bechtel and Halliburton - who seem to make a good living out of reconstructing destruction - it does seem likely that Ritter is correct. Indeed some other analysts have predicted an even early attack on Iran, possibly involving special forces attempting to destroy the Iranian reactor at Bushehr. Veteran journalist Seymour Hersh, who also claimed that the U.S. has been conducting secret reconnaissance missions in Iran for at least a year, backed up Ritter’s contention. But anyone with a grasp of history can understand that this is all in vain. As William River Pitt comments: "It seems all too clear that this third American empire is threatening to collapse under its own ponderous weight. The movement conservatives cannot contain the forces that have been unleashed against them. The American military is proving itself to be incapable of sustaining the unreasonable demands being placed upon it." 3rd rate nation Meanwhile, in the manner of the militarised late Roman Empire, the United States sinks lower and lower at home. One American friend commented to me: "'We are a third-rate, third-world country that just happens to have plenty of arms." True enough - the U.S. has about the highest child poverty rate of any industrialised nation, with Britain tagging along in second place after them, much as Blair dutifully follows Bush. China has recently overtaken the United States as the biggest consumer nation, to which country the U.S.A. has already exported over 1 million jobs. Unsurprisingly, the manufacturing base of the nation of Edison and Ford is slowly crumbling away. While the warmonger Bush gets ready to create a trail of havoc across the Middle East, his own country faces a dismal future. :(
Lliam.

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Re: Iran next?

Postby piqaboo » Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:24 am

I think we've just solved the immigration problem! :) Post copies of the last part of that article at every border crossing, river ford etc. No one will want to come to a crumbling third-rate third-world country - in fact, they'll emmigrate in droves! :( I enjoyed seeing the opposite use of it in this article. :p

LOL at the new motto. Thats pretty darn funny. I wonder if Bush is channeling Queen Vic? :eek:
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Re: Iran next?

Postby shostakovich » Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:04 pm

Hi Lliam. Where did that article come from? Iran in June, eh? That's hard to believe --- as was Bush's re-election and virtually all his initiatives.

The talking it up part has begun. The shaky intelligence is in progress. Can congress allow the insanity to continue?
Shos
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Re: Iran next?

Postby dai bread » Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:09 pm

I think Syria's next on the list at the moment. Perhaps even Syria/Lebanon, as it looks as though civil war is possible in Lebanon as Hizbolah fights for its life.

Whenever anyone belittles the U.S. or Europe, or any other "Western" country, I just reflect for a moment on who has immigration problems & who doesn't.
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Re: Iran next?

Postby lliam » Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:52 pm

Originally posted by shostakovich:
Hi Lliam. Where did that article come from?
Shos
Hi Shos, check it out.

http://www.bnp.org.uk/
Lliam.

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Re: Iran next?

Postby lliam » Sat Oct 15, 2005 7:45 am

The recent news that weapons used against British troops in Southern Iraq may have been supplied by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard should make us all stand up and take note. The very fact that an external Muslim power is seeking to exploit the deteriorating situation in Iraq should be viewed as both perilous, and suspicious. One may argue as to the motives behind Tehran’s decision in this matter. Certainly, exerting pressure on Britain may force a climb-down in the current diplomatic standoff over Iran’s nuclear ambitions. But since when has Blair worried about the lives of our soldiers, to satisfy his thirst for war?

There is, however, another, even more dangerous situation, which has yet to be investigated. The current intelligence clamour over Iran’s nuclear programme, has led the majority of us to believe that this is the only threat from Tehran. It would be foolish to believe in this. Unlike Iraq, which was subjected to weapons inspections, Iran has continued to develop chemical and biological weapons at a frightening pace. While there is as yet no complete proof that Iran has chemical stockpiles, the intelligence failure in Iraq, concerning WMD has understandably ensured Western Intelligence agencies to be a little more prudent. The evidence is there nonetheless.

Chemical capability

So where are we likely to find conclusive evidence? If the reports coming from the National Council of Resistance of Iran, backed by a report from the German Customs Office of Criminal Investigations, then the proof is already there. It is suspected that Iran has the capability to produce sulphur mustard, tabun and prussic acid (hydrogen cyanide), perhaps also Sarin and VX nerve gas. Should the IRGC (Iranian Revolutionary Guards Council) see these weapons as a perfect way to increase the pressure on Britain and the US, then surely, they would not shy away from using them? The thirst for martyrdom in Iraq would see low level use of chemical weapons as an ideal tool to destabilize the region further.

There is no other action the British government can now take short of a complete withdrawal from the Middle East. Regardless of what people may say, the oil will still flow. This is no longer about giving democracy to the Iraqi people. It is about ensuring our soldiers, sailors and airmen come home safely.
Lliam.

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Re: Iran next?

Postby dai bread » Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:22 pm

According to my paper this morning, bombing techniques used against British troops were supplied by British "Intelligence" via the IRA.

Truly, moles & sleepers are everywhere. Here is the article.
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