Iraqi Democracy

[OperaTenor]

Bravi to the Iraqis in turning out in such large numbers to vote, in spite of the threats and few acts of violence that actually took place.



Let's hope this is the beginning of stability and moderation in the region.

[hal 9000]

Hear! Hear!

[Trumpetmaster]

Looks like the vote was a success!!!
Maybe we can get our troops home faster.

[barfle]

Indeed, the voting went far more smoothly than I had expected, which does indeed please me. Of course, we now have a couple of weeks of what would be called backroom haggling amongst the winners to determine things like the equivalent of majority leaders, etc.

I'm anxiously awaiting the new government's first official actions. Then we'll see if the concepts of "democracy" mean the same thing in the middle east as they do here.

I'm neither optimistic nor pessimistic. I'm just reserving judgement until I have something to base that judgement on.

[Trumpetmaster]

Barfle,
I'm just tired of hearing (I know we all are) about our young men and women getting killed over there. Want to see them come home.
I have a POW/MIA magnet on the back of my car.
Filled up my gas tank over the weekend and the man pumping gas actually asked me what POW/MIA meant.

[OperaTenor]

I was listening to Weekend Edition Sunday yesterday morning, and Liane Hansen was speaking with a couple of "experts" regarding the meaning of the election. One was a Lebanese journalist in Beirut, who said the vote meant three things: 1) The Iraqis rejected the totalitarian type of government they had under Saddam, 2)The Iraqis rejected the insurgency, and 3) The Iraqis wanted the U.S. and British troops out of Iraq. To me, the logical follow-up question to that would've been, "How do you arrive at the third conclusion, based soley on the fact Iraqis went out and voted?", but she never asked the question, and the journalist never gave any reasoning for his conclusion(s)(the first two are rather obvious). I was left with the impression the journalist was projecting his own personal bias on the significance of the vote(he kept reiterating the Iraqis'[read: his IMO] desire to for U.S. and British troops to leave Iraq). It also left me questioning either Liane Hansen's ability, or wondering if perhaps an agenda was being projected by not asking the question that begged to be asked.

I supposed that it can be inferred that by voting and doing their part to move the process of self government along, the Iraqis might be expressing a desire for the troops to leave, but I find that rather weak. That kind of conspiratorial mass action would entail a large, high-profile movement(which the MSM surely would've made much of) that I've never heard of.

:confused:

<small>[ 01-31-2005, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

A more concrete indication of real progress in Iraq. There's an Iraqi lady works with the other group down the hall, says her uncle is moving his family back to Iraq. Finally feels safe to go home.

Now that's a real sign of progress.

[mmichaelson]

Yeah, I agree Selma. Bravo to them!

[haggis]

Iraqi Voter Turnout

” Iraqi independent election commission has said the turnout exceeded expectations and could be between 60 and 75 percent of registered voters.”


I had a conversation with myself this morning, something the mean, (partially) redheaded Yankee nurse claims I do frequently, including mumbling in my oatmeal. I asked myself if faced with the real threat of being bombed or killed would I have voted?

Personally, I’d like to believe that I would have but I (also probably) would have tried to talk my wife and my sons out of voting out of a sense of fear and (overly?) protectiveness towards my family.

Yesterday's voter turnout in Iraq, somewhere between 60 and 75% depending on the source, caused me to wonder about voter turnout in other countries. Here's a sampling from the International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance

· France - 2002 Parliamentary Election, 60.32%.
· Russian Federation - 1999 Parliamentary Election, 60.49%.
· Argentina - 2001 Parliamentary Election, 75.21%.
· Australia - 2001 Parliamentary Election, 94.85%.
· Brazil - 1998 Parliamentary Election, 78.51%.
· Canada - 2000 Parliamentary Election, 61.18%.
· Czech Republic - 2002 Parliamentary Election, 57.95%.
· Germany - 2002 Parliamentary Election, 79.08%.
· United Kingdom - 2001 Parliamentary Election, 59.38%.
· Poland - 2001 Presidential Election, 61.12%.
· India - 1999 Parliamentary Election, 59.73%.
· Israel - 2003 Parliamentary Election, 67.81%.
· Japan - 2000 Parliamentary Election, 60.62%.
· Italy - 2001 Parliamentary Election, 81.44%.
· United States - 2004 Presidential Election, 60.7%

If you’re curious about how other Middle Eastern countries stack-up go to the following links from the NationMaster website:

Government type

Civil and political liberties

Democratic institutions rating

I applaud the people of Iraq and I think the brave turnout indicated the level of intensity the population of Iraq have for self-determination.

Even the Europeans viewed the election as a triumph and otherwise critical heads of states made several favorable remarks about the elections and the turnout.

I’m glad I’m on the same side as the Iraqi voters.


P.S. Paul Harvey said that 93% of expatriate Iraqi voted!! pretty impressive for a population scattered all over the globe.

<small>[ 01-31-2005, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Haggis ]</small>

[barfle]

Howard, the only sticker on my car (besides the ones the gummint of Vahjinny require) is one for beethoven.com.

It's pretty sad when someone doesn't know what POW/MIA means, but maybe that's why that person is pumping gas.

And it's very, very easy to support troops without believing that their mission is a bad one.

No matter what the ends of this adventure turn out being, I, for one, will be hard pressed to say that the means were justified.

But I really do hope for a free and prosperous Iraq, whatever that means to whoever is determining the meaning ("free" could be something far, far different to someone in Falludja than to me). A lot of innocent people died in this particular use of American military might, and I would be even more irate if I knew it was all in vain.

BTW, Iraq is getting close to being as expensive as VietNam was.

[haggis]

Barf,

"BTW, Iraq is getting close to being as expensive as VietNam was."

In what way?

[OperaTenor]

Originally posted by Haggis:
Barf,

"BTW, Iraq is getting close to being as expensive as VietNam was."

In what way?

(All of the bystanders in Dodge City back away, leaving a wide, clear path in the dusty street between Barfle and Haggis, eagerly awaiting...)

<small>[ 01-31-2005, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>

[GreatCarouser]

I'm attaching a link to a rather large (125 pg) pdf file of a report posted by the National Intelligence Council: Mapping The Global Future

[GreatCarouser]

This is from Voice of America

[Trumpetmaster]

I thought I saw an article where Bush asked for an additional 80 Billion Dollars for the war. Oh what that money could do here in the states to support homeless, hungry families. Education and the Arts.

Part of me wishes they would have found WMD to justify whats going on. In my eyes it is a huge embarassment to our government. Don't get me wrong, I Support our troops 150% and want them to get the heck home ASAP.

I believe this really tarnished Americas image all over the world and Bush needs to be a bit more careful with the data he is getting (or not?)

Enough of my editorial.

[Trumpetmaster]

I thought I saw an article where Bush asked for an additional 80 Billion Dollars for the war. Oh what that money could do here in the states to support homeless, hungry families. Education and the Arts.

Part of me wishes they would have found WMD to justify whats going on. In my eyes it is a huge embarassment to our government. Don't get me wrong, I Support our troops 150% and want them to get the heck home ASAP.

I believe this really tarnished Americas image all over the world and Bush needs to be a bit more careful with the data he is getting (or not?)

Enough of my editorial.

[haggis]

<img src="http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/Cartoons/02-01-2005.gif" alt=" - " />


heh

[Marye]

Haggis,

What are your feelings about Guantanamo Bay? I see in the Washington Post (I suspect you may hold no respect for this paper) that

A federal judge ruled yesterday that the Bush administration must allow prisoners at the military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, to contest their detention in U.S. courts, concluding that special military reviews established by the Pentagon as an alternative are illegal.

Of course I am baiting you, just a bit, to post 3 more times in order to be First Chair... ahem. Still... I wonder ?

[mmichaelson]

Marye, you're not too far behind him, you know. . .a couple more and you'll be there yourself!

I am interested to hear what Haggis has to say on that subject, as he is always so enlightening.

[OperaTenor]

Hi TM,

I knew I liked you! If you find yourself with nothing better to do, Read through all of the old Barracks threads that have to do with the Bush/PNAC administration and the war. It'll be like deja vu all over again!

Speaking of deja vu, you double-posted!