Our Economy

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Our Economy

Postby shostakovich » Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:39 pm

It seems that our economy is a reflection of business and industry (B&I), and the main, if not sole, indicator is the status of "Wall Street". How is this economy flourishing?

1) The tax cuts help B&I keep more money. The flaw is that the cuts exacerbate the deficit. The credit card mentality is a precursor to ultimate disaster. It was recently pointed out that so many of our citizens live that way, that the dangers have already been erased in the collective mind.

2) War is good. It stimulates an economy.

3) The environment takes second place to the economy. B&I have the go-ahead to abuse it.

4) Medicare has been sold out to HMOs and "Big Pharma", a big chunk of B&I.

5) Social Security is about to be ruined ("strengthened" in Bushspeak) to create a new stimulus for Wall Street".

6) Unemployment is good for the economy. B&I do better when they can economize by layoffs.

Each of the above is fostered by our president. It's a clear, knowing choice that has been made to benefit B&I at the expense of the common person. The president looks and sounds like he cares about everybody (never moreso than in an election year), but if you ignore what he says and watch what he does, all he cares about is the economy, and whoever gets hurt by it is just collateral damage.

He calls himself a Christian, but he's enough to piss off a saint. What would Jesus say? Look it up.
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Re: Our Economy

Postby OperaTenor » Mon Feb 07, 2005 10:41 pm

If our economy's so good(and the EEU is such a misconceptual failure in progress), why is the dollar losing ground to the Euro?

While we're at it, all of these moves reek of supply side/trickle-down economics all over again. Haven't these guys figured out the Laffer curve is a joke?!! At this rate, we'll have another market crash like the one that occurred toward the end of "Reaganomics". It will be interesting to see which businesses the taxpayers will be stuck with the bill of bailing out this time.

RC, how far-fetched am I?

<small>[ 02-07-2005, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>
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Re: Our Economy

Postby analog » Tue Feb 08, 2005 2:33 am

Cogito ergo doleo.
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Re: Our Economy

Postby Trumpetmaster » Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:10 am

Shos,
I recently saw a report that in 1990 the average credit card debt was about $3,000. In 2000 it is about $10,000. I agree there is a mentality that does lead to financial disaster.
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Re: Our Economy

Postby haggis » Tue Feb 08, 2005 9:39 am

So Shos, before I reply to most of your points,
give me an example of what and when you felt the economy was good?
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Re: Our Economy

Postby RC » Tue Feb 08, 2005 9:51 am

You guys probably don't remember Clinton warning about organized crime's effect on the dollar but I do. Seems kinda funny now.

So I had to laugh when I found this article and I think you will enjoy it as well: MSN Slate article

OT, regarding Laffer Curve; I agree with you. IMO it's become a tool of obfuscation and ad hoc hypothesizing for politicians and their lackies. Without an awful lot of qualification, Laffer's Laffer Curve just doesn't hold water and you can rattle off a dozen examples in a blink. :D

Enjoy the article.
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Re: Our Economy

Postby OperaTenor » Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:23 am

Hi RC,

Rant away, please! You and Shos are the best ranters on the BBB, IMHO. :D
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Re: Our Economy

Postby RC » Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:02 am

Tee hee...
I think we're in a market evolution.
Remember when I blathered on about globablization and it's effect on an alleged income polariztation?
The way I see it from down here (from the micro, micro, micro level), both Kerry and Bush were offering economic protectionism against globalization in their campaign speeches.
Neither one satisfactorally addressed the demise of individual entrepeneurship which is what I see as being our global economic ruin and used to be our pride.

Anyway,privatising SS would just about have to boost the stock market wouldn't it? That's a good thing.
But, just like the Medicare HMO's proposed in FL, you don't actually get a choice do you? The government will give you your "choices" to prevent you from being stupid. I think Piq addressed this somewhere. So, it's not really privatizing and it stands the chance of being grossly biased and defeating the idea of capitalism. Who's to say, the great leaders won't choose Cheney's defense companies and Bush's oil companies? Oh I'm sure it wouldn't be blatant...
The HMO's for FL Medicare will be hand selected by Jeb. Not like he's ever had any curious dealings with HMO's... (GOOGLE IMC Jeb Bush)
;)
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Re: Our Economy

Postby RC » Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:30 am

Oh yeah... supply side economics...
Yes, I think it's pretty obvious that's what the administration is presenting.
If you didn't already get it from my ramblings, it won't work for us peons IMO. Not if big business calls all the shots all the time and the Feds are in bed with them.
On the other hand, if you're already in bed with corporate elites, it can only get sunnier!

Here's a curve I've never seen in supply side economics/politics: what is the relationship between capital infusion in big business to directors personal wealth from the business and how does the size of the corporation effect the curves shape?

In other words, how much pocket lining do you get vs business investment. If you could hire two more people in a company with 500 employees, or take a $100,000 annual pay raise for a president, how much difference will the two peons really make anyway?

OR, same company, if you could hire 100 new employees for a new plant, would you be inclined to grow your company and get $200,000 pay raise in a few years?

So I'm thinking that the only time this works is if you give the breaks to SMALL business not industry giants. But industry giants and the top 1% of wealthy individuals (industry giant owners/directors), are the ones that get the benefit from whats happening now. Well, maybe they can now afford a maid.?

I sound so cynical! sorry.
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Re: Our Economy

Postby OperaTenor » Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:51 am

Yeah, you're way too cynical. Don't you realize we should just be patient and wait for the opportunities to come cascading down to us since so much wealth will be freed up at the top?

Happy Days Are Here Again! keeps playing over and over in the background.

:(
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Re: Our Economy

Postby lioness » Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:59 am

Originally posted by OperaTenor:
Don't you realize we should just be patient and wait for the opportunities to come cascading down to us since so much wealth will be freed up at the top?
OT, i wanna live in your world!! :)

<small>[ 02-08-2005, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: lioness ]</small>
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Re: Our Economy

Postby OperaTenor » Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:09 pm

Sorry Lioness, I forgot my [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] bracket thingies around that statement.

:D
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Re: Our Economy

Postby lioness » Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:20 pm

oh wait, how about that... ME TOO!! ;)

i will say though, as politically ignorant as i am ;)
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Re: Our Economy

Postby Shapley » Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:43 pm

I like supply-side economics.

The secret is to get on the supply side of things. If you supply things, even labour, you come out ahead.

V/R
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Re: Our Economy

Postby RC » Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:04 pm

lioness, we're all learning from each other. :cool: Pretty slick.
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Re: Our Economy

Postby Shapley » Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:10 pm

Incidently,

The unemployement rate for Jan. stands at 5.2%. That is .4% lower than it was at this point in Bill Clinton's second term.

Just thought you'd like to know.

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Re: Our Economy

Postby OperaTenor » Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:30 pm

I'm not nominating Bill Clinton for any Nobel prize in economics, either.

I think emplyoment statistics should be tempered with just exactly what kind of employment is being reflected by the numbers. If we continue to replace long term, relatively technical types of jobs like manufacturing with short term, low tech service industry types of jobs, what does that bode for the future standing of the U.S. in the world economic community? We continue a trend begun in the eighties of exporting/ceding our manufacturing and technical capacity to other industrialized nations to skirt our regulations designed to protect our work force and the integrity of business.
To me, it's the same mentality that fostered the popularity of junk bonds and speculative investment: Desire for short term profit over long term investment in stability and continuance of vitalization of industry.

But then, I detest playing the slots. Shows you where I come from....

Jim "Keynesian" B.

;)
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Re: Our Economy

Postby Shapley » Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:44 pm

Actually, a recent report indicated that high-skilled blue-collar jobs are in demand now. Not that we're adding lots of them, but that retiring baby boomers are leaving a dearth of high-skilled employees to fill the positions.

We've been exporting mostly low-skilled jobs, although they do take many supervisory and other skilled positions with them. They also create white-collar jobs as they leave, as people are needed to handle the logistics of importing and exporting the materials and products to the relocated labour factories.

All the new jobs cannot be flipping burgers, since burger flippers are not building new houses, and new housing starts continue to climb. Nor are the new houses being built to house those who cannot afford them. I have customers across the nation in the construction field, and most are operating at full capacity and continuing to add more capacity. They service both the contractor and end-user markets, and both are swamped by the demand. There may be pockets in the nation we're not hearing from that aren't busy, but I don't know where they are.


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Re: Our Economy

Postby RC » Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:51 pm

Originally posted by Shapley:
Incidently,

The unemployement rate for Jan. stands at 5.2%. That is .4% lower than it was at this point in Bill Clinton's second term.

Just thought you'd like to know.

V/R
Shapley
The unemployment rate, although trending downward, averaged 7.5% during Reagan's tenure.

It spiked again to 7.8% during Bush Sr.'s reign. Bush senior didn't advocate growing/financing the deficit either. Remember "no new taxes" ...er... :D I think he was back peddling for Reagan's debt financing from ye ol' "trickle down" tax cuts.

Unemployment dropped under Clinton and even matched an all time low before popping up again slightly toward the end. (Thus my comment about everyone having TWO jobs). AND, Clinton decreased the deficit.

The big stink over unemployment rates right now isn't so much a daily static figure, but trends I think. Bush advocates, (supply side economics advocates), were expecting to see a more immediate and drastic change. They're watching for movement but it just isn't doing what they thought it would and there is a lot of speculation about why.

It was an experiment in which the results didn't support the hypothesis. darn.
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Re: Our Economy

Postby RC » Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:58 pm

Shap,
Don't you think that people are investing in housing because the interest rates were at an all time low?

I do! Goodness, you'd be silly not to wouldn't you?

I know there is some talk about a "bubble" now in the housing market too. Some say real estate is now overvalued. I think 20/20 did a spot on it the other night. I didn't watch.
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