Immigrant Tracking bracelet

[Trumpetmaster]

Quote from Picaboo

"Didn't we recently dim that lady's lamp, so she wouldnt provide targeting for terrorists? man, I hope my memories wrong on that one!>"

I believe you are correct on this.

I used to drive home from Staten Island to Queens and would pass Lady Liberty everyday driving up the Belt Parkway.

A beautiful sight to see each and everyday!!

TM

[nytehawk]

Free emergency care??? Hah! Thats a good joke! The only place you can get emergency care despite of your ability to pay is NYC because it is the law. Illegals only show up at emergency when they are at death's door because exposing their status means deportation. The Taxpayers who foot the bill are in greater New York, the people who live in and run the largtest independent economic engine in the world. We are about 22 million strong and most of our tax money goes to foot the bill for everybody else in this country. New York gets back a tiny fraction of what it contributes to State and Federal coffers. Now who'se mooching off of whom? And since when do undocumented people get welfare? Moochers need proof of citizenship. Lastly, the overwhelming majority of citizens on the dole are women and children because deadbeat dads play but don't pay. Illegals have nothing to do with it. We have met the enemy and it is us.

Aurea Andino
NYC

[Trumpetmaster]

Nytehawk,
I grew up in Queens and now live on Long Island.
Same crap in NYC is going on here. They have even passed a law out here that if an ambulance is on an alpha call (not critical) and a delta call comes in (very serious) the ambulance can no longer be diverted to the more serious condition.
subsequently, the person with the hangnail getting a free ride to the ER plus fre care is keeping the EMTs away from assisting those who truly need immediate assistance.

It's not just the deadbeat dads that don't pay.
There is a multitude of problems. We have just focused on the illegal immigrant issue sucking out tax dollars away.

There are truly legal legitiment people out there in need of assistance. I don't oppose that at all.
I oppose the blood sucking low life illegals that are abusing the system. Like I said, there are a number of contributing factors that have led us to where we are today. Government and employers are equally as responsible.

TM

[lioness]

Originally posted by nytehawk:
Free emergency care??? Hah! Thats a good joke! The only place you can get emergency care despite of your ability to pay is NYC because it is the law. Illegals only show up at emergency when they are at death's door because exposing their status means deportation.

this does not necessarily seem to be the case since there is now a huge issue where illegals can easily obtain fake documents to find work, apply for benefits, etc.

[nytehawk]

The big fake documen problem round here are fake ids made by underage drinkers. They will now loose their licenses until reaching the age of majority. The onus for hiring undocumented workers is on the employers who 1. Don't want to pay decent wages, pay their share of Social Security and Workman's Comp Taxes, or 2. bother to provide safe working conditions. DC should be coming down hard on these guys. OTH, there are political $$$s to be had by ignoring the issue. Employers have PACs and $$$s which workers of any type don't. The laws against hiring illegals have no teeth. We have the technology to track and validate documents and if it isn't being done its because nobody wants to bother doing it. I think the issue raises a lot of dust to obscure the fact that hring illegal workers is and always has been highly profitable. With respecct to the terroritst problem most of it would be solved by nuking Saudi Arabia whose people are the perpetrators and financiers of international terrorism. Guess where they got their money? Our petro$$$s. Turning Riiyadh to glass solves a lot of problems.

[Trumpetmaster]

"The big fake documen problem round here are fake ids made by underage drinkers. They will now loose their licenses until reaching the age of majority."

I think it is a good law!
------------------------------------------------

"DC should be coming down hard on these guys. OTH, there are political $$$s to be had by ignoring the issue. Employers have PACs and $$$s which workers of any type don't. The laws against hiring illegals have no teeth. We have the technology to track and validate documents and if it isn't being done its because nobody wants to bother doing it. I think the issue raises a lot of dust to obscure the fact that hring illegal workers is and always has been highly profitable."

You bring out an excellent point.
As I said Government and the Employers are as much to blame for this situation.
I think there are a number of politicians that are being paid under the table to "Look the Other Way"

TM

[OperaTenor]

[sarcasm] Yup, we just need to shoot 'em at the borders. That'll solve the problem! [/sarcasm]

All of this talk about social services being abused and who's paying for it still obfusicates what's really going on: We, that is, that Americans calling the shots, WANT illegal immigration. The available solutions to the problem are so obvious and cost effective that no other explanation makes sense.

[mmichaelson]

OT, I know you guys feel the border breaking problems as bad as we do here in Texas, if not worse.

I can tell you for sure that I do not want illegal immigration, and if anyone in government cared as much as I do, something would have been done a long time ago. It's not fair to the illegals or to us citizens.

You'd think (this will be the only critique you'll ever hear out of me about both Bushes) that with TWO presidents in the past 20 years from Texas, something more would be done about the problem.
Obviously, as you say, government doesn't view it as a problem.

[piqaboo]

Originally posted by TrumpetMaster:

I grew up in Queens and now live on Long Island.
Same crap in NYC is going on here. They have even passed a law out here that if an ambulance is on an alpha call (not critical) and a delta call comes in (very serious) the ambulance can no longer be diverted to the more serious condition.
subsequently, the person with the hangnail getting a free ride to the ER plus fre care is keeping the EMTs away from assisting those who truly need immediate assistance.
TM

Hey TM, the illegals did NOT vote for that law. They cant vote. Gotta show proof of citizenship to register, remember? So what kinda "me first" legal citizen idiots did vote when that law was up? And who stayed home? It just doesnt work to pin that law on illegal immigrants.

You really cant blame them for all the ills of society. Immigrants, legal or otherwise, are the bedrock of US innovation, energy, and "can do". Them as is afraid of change stayed home. Only the brave and those willing to try new things bother to come - legally or otherwise.

I would like to see an unbiased analysis of the various costs and saving associated with:
cost of schooling illegal immigrant children.
cost of throwing em in jail if we dont let them go to school and they get bored and rowdy
loss of property and employment taxes
gain due to lower costs of food, cut flowers, clean buildings, cheap taxi rides
gain due to increased wages due to ability to focus on job because illegal nanny or gardner is making home life easier

etc.

There IS an economic upside to low cost labor. It does roll down to all levels of society. It would be tough to analyze. My guess is the cost of produce would skyrocket if we busted all the employers. Might cost each of us more than our share of taxes to cover public services for illegal residents.
Particularly if we are trying to get in our 9 a day (revised food pyramid).

Selma & OT seems to have come up with a workable solution - create legal traceable simple & easy to get workpermits. Bust the snot out of employers who work around them.

<small>[ 03-15-2005, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: piqaboo ]</small>

[OperaTenor]

Originally posted by piqaboo:

There IS an economic upside to low cost labor. It does roll down to all levels of society. It would be tough to analyze. My guess is the cost of produce would skyrocket if we busted all the employers. Might cost each of us more than our share of taxes to cover public services for illegal residents.
Particularly if we are trying to get in our 9 a day (revised food pyramid).

How about implementing a system as Selma suggested, or the old migrant farm worker program? That way we have the cheap labor, and the employers and workers are pulling their fair share. That way it is now, the employer shafts not only their workers by underpaying them, but us by skipping out on the taxes they're supposed to be paying, and then the taxpayers get that little bit extra by having to cover for services rendered to the illegals, exacerbated by the fact of the illegals trying to keep off the radar scope and waiting until their need is extreme.
We are currently allowing employers to break the law, we have illegal immigrants who are not only taking advantage of the perqs in this society, but are being taken advantage of.

To me, this is not an acceptable status quo. However, our leaders must think it so, or why else does it persist?

[Trumpetmaster]

Piq,
I'm more pissed at government and the employers.
I know the illegals don't vote. Just tired of busting my butt and watching illegals sponge off the system (OUR tax dollars) to support them.

We pay one way or another.
If I have to pay higher produce costs etc.. I'm OK with that, then maybe hospitals wouldn't overcharge insurance companies to compensate for those who can't pay and bring down the cost of medical coverage for all.
I think we are all in agreement change is required
to get out of this viscious cycle.

TM

[mmichaelson]

Hear Hear!

[nytehawk]

I agree that change is badly needed but I'm stumped on getting any action out of anybody. Politicking is a perfect racket. The pay and perks are great and there are no measurable objectives, no accountability, and no yearly performance review. If you're clever you can raise up enough new dust to have the public forget the pack of lies you told them that got you elected in the first place. I guess it's our own fault. We get the government we deserve and the sad fact is that a huge number of Americans don't care enough to participate in the most minimal ways. It's a shame that most people don't bother to email their complaints to officials to let them know that maybe their jobs are on the line. That's our Democracy in action. Sometimes I think that Jefferson's real genius was in designing a system of government that isn't meant to do much, either good or bad. I think maybe America works despite our government not because of it. The people manage somehow. Honest, how many of those guys in DC would you hire? They're lawyers without lawyering experience. I wouldn't want them to represent me in a parking ticket case.

[OperaTenor]

Hi Nytehawk, I forgot earlier: Welcome to the Pit!

You opened several wounds I'm tempted to rub salt into and expound on, but for the present I embark on just this one hijack:

Speaking of contacting your elected representatives, urge them not to support any of this proposed Social Security "reform"! It's nothing but blatant corporate welfare at the taxpayer's expense! If you don't trust me, read the report yourself, it's all there.

[lioness]

Originally posted by piqaboo:
I would like to see an unbiased analysis of the various costs...

let’s look at your neck of the woods. illegal immigrant population is costing taxpayers more than $10.5 billion per year for education, medical care and incarceration.

nearly 15 percent of the K-12 public school students in CA are children of illegal aliens. based on estimates, $7.7 billion annually is spent on education for illegal immigrant children and for their U.S.-born siblings.

health care provided to the state's illegal alien population amounts to about a $1.4 billion a year offset.

the cost of incarcerating illegal aliens in CA’s prisons and jails amounts to about $1.4 billion a year.


The Costs of Illegal Immigration to Californians

[Trumpetmaster]

"Didn't we recently dim that lady's lamp, so she wouldnt provide targeting for terrorists? man, I hope my memories wrong on that one!>"

Piqaboo,

During the weather report for this mornings news program they had a live picture of Lady Liberty!

You will be happy to know her torch was shining brightly!!!!!!

TM

[nytehawk]

OperaTenor, I hear u loud and clear. Nothing like a healthy shout at your politicos on a regular basis. On the illegal immigrant issue: Telemundo announced a Mexican survey of people who expressed a desire to live in the US. The overwhelming majority would welcome temporary work visas, ids, tax paying, and anything else legally required of them including the restriction that they return to their native land after a given period of time. Didn't we use to do this?

Is it going to happen? Hell no. Employers would have to pay at least minimum wage, which is a laughable amount of chump change, and pay Social Securiy taxes and Workman's Comp and collect Income taxes from their temporary immigrant workers which costs money. That means the rest of us taxpayers will continue to foot the bill for irresponsible employers looking to dodge the system.

Fining employers who get rich off of undocumented workers isn't enough. Fines become part of the cost of doing business a small amount of overhead to pay for doing things illegally and on the super cheap. Make it a felony and toss them in jail for a couple of years. Jail time would be a good deterrent and get employers to toe the line.

And yes, we do need workers. Despite our chronic unemployment problems there are way too many Americans who think that menial labor is somehow beneath them. These are the people who drive me nuts. They claim that unskilled labor are dead end jobs and what they need are careers but don't put out the sweat to make themselves economically viable and get an education. If there's one thing that's easy to get in NYC it's an education. Adult education is offered by every institution in town for free or for minimal fees. You can learn if you try. You can work if you want to. There are always stores looking for workers entry or management entry levels. Too many people don't bother to walk through those open doors. It's the difference between the lazy slobs who try to hussle money from us in the streets while sitting in front of help wanted signs and the local Doe Fund workers we hire to help clean our streets. Cleaning streets is honorable work. The latter are supported by local merchants which is why my neighborhood businesses will always get my support.

Undocumented workers work their butts off in thankless jobs nobody wants. The ones I want to strangle are the citizens who think that work is beneath them and that the rest of us owe them a free ride.

A. Andino
NYC

[OperaTenor]

Hi Nytehawk,

Well said!

Yes, we used to have programs to employ and document aliens on a temporary basis. My guess it's been found to be more cost effective to have them illegal and underpaid, so as long as those interests are being catered to, we won't see real reform or legitimazation of the system.

As for fining employers, yup, more has to be done. The fines need to be exorbitant, and, IMNSHO, their right to conduct business needs to be taken away, perhaps permanently. Out them on some sort of business license blacklist, and punish them if they try to defraud the system.
To me, they're not merely irresponsible, they're criminal. They're stealing from their employess, the government, and each of us who pays taxes.

It's like I've previously contended: We can't blame the illiegals for trying to better their lives, and they would legally participate if we gave them the avenue to do it.

The other thing you're right about is the fact that we, as Americans, do get too proud and lazy to remember that every job needs doing, and that there's no shame in doing an honest day's work.

There was a time in my life when I had been out of work for some time, and jobs were scarce. Once the situation started looking pretty grim, I started working my way down the skill level ladder looking for work, because I felt that any attempt to earn an honest living was better than trying to wait for the opportunity that met my standards. The really ironic bit was when I applied to work at an AmPm and got turned down because I was overqualified. The owner contended I wouldn't stay long enough to make it worth his while, no matter how much I swore to him I would stay at least six months, out of gratitude for giving me a job, if nothing else. The store manager was an ex-Navy officer, saw that I was an ex-nuc, and went to bat for me, telling the owner that my word as good as a legal contract, but the guy wouldn't budge. That incident made me reexamine my perspective on job hunting. If I hadn't gotten a job shortly after that, I was going to have to resort to dumbing down my resume', which was something I never thought the likes of me would ever need to do.

[piqaboo]

lioness,
thats the costs. Now the savings:

to pick just one portion of one industry that is perceived as employing many illegal immigrants
paying dogs wages drops the cost of produce (fresh/frozen/canned)tremendously. The feds want us to eat 9 servings fruit and veg a day.

Think about it: If lettuce goes up to $5/ head from $2 in the grocery, which brings your local diner to charge $8 (from $4)for a sidesalad of iceberg lettuce,and thats just one serving, etc etc etc.

Lets say the total price of all those servings only increases the cost of eating the recommended 9 by $1 per person per day. how much money does that cost Californians?

Now lets look at the price of rice, Bread/wheat, eggs, chicken, beef (who do you think "cleans" feedlots?), pork, milk ?

I think the costs would start to look pretty balanced and maybe even positive on the side of the tax payer. If there were no benefit, there would be no illegals, 'cause people wouldnt hire them. Farmers hire em to keep production costs down so they can stay competitive in the market place. Scientists hire nannies and gardeners so the scientists can stay longer hours at work and concentrate more fully on their jobs which makes their employers more profitable, giving social benefits of increased stock price, increased investment in infrastructure (my company is raising a new building - work for architects, construction company, and a great bunch o' property tax!), and if the products work, improved health care for americans. No one I know can afford a legal au pair, but several folks I know have found a live-in illegal nanny to be cheaper than daycare for their 2+ children.

I think the cost of educating immigrant children is an investment in educated employable adults in our futures. I guess thats a price Im very willing to pay, for what I see as a longterm extremely profitable payoff. Plus, bored kids do a lot of damage. Keep those kids in schools, teach them american values. Make them into americans. Primary school is cheaper than jail.
One teacher "guards" 20+ kids, while even teaching them to think and be civilized. No one had to patrol the perimeter. The school doesnt have to pay for healthcare of sick "inmates" (children), nor to pay for their food and clothing.


nytehawk, if the temps had to go home after a set time as part of their permit contract, no point in paying SS for them. That saves the employer ~25% compared to the hourly wage of a citizen who gets the same take-home pay. Thats worth something! That would sweeten the pot quite a bit for employers, if not quite as sweet as it is now.