Can you say "boondoggle"?!

[OperaTenor]

Parting the sea

Perhaps I'm confused. The Salton Sea was formed by an irrigation levee breaking in 1905, and has been cataclysmic, ecologically speaking, ever since. Nothing is stable, and nothing thrives there except for selenium and salt. It's a man-made mistake that's been compounded upon over the years, and now there's a Congressional mandate to preserve it?! Everything about it is artificial, so that makes no sense to me.

If we apply the same kind of correctional math used to correct the initial GWB estimates of his Medicare gutting......uh, I mean, reform, we can assume the final bill for what is propsed to be more like $2.4 billion, rather than $800 million.

I have to think there's a better way, and while we're at it, how about heading in the direction of restoring it to what it was before we flooded it? A desert.

<small>[ 03-09-2005, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Sheesh. There's more "before" to the Salton Sea than "when the first guy I know of saw it".

It's been desert, dry lake bed, wet lake bed, wet salt lake bed, salt swamp, and ocean floor. This most recent wet phase was initiated when a levee broke. So it's a salt lake instead of a salt pan.

It's never going to be dry while the desert is irrigable and farmable. So perhaps we ought to manage it as well as we can? Instead of making all those farms back into deserts, which the farmers would probably resist.

[OperaTenor]

Do you think what is proposed in the article is the way it ought to be done?

Otherwise, your point is?

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

I think we should divert the Colorado into the desert, let Yuma blow away, and fill that puppy up until it establishes an outflow. What it really needs is an outflow. Or maybe we could blow a hole in that ridge cutting off the Gulf of California from the rest of itself, that is now the desert?

Might be kind of hard of El Centro and Brawley, but I'm sure they would eventually get over it. Perhaps houses on pilings? Commercial fish farming, instead of stockyards?

Really, the Salton Sea could use some controls on the dissolved minerals and other materials. Lots more inflow and some outflow would do it. It's the outflow that's the tricky part.

[OperaTenor]

Yes, that would certainly be the ticket for taking care of salt and selenium concentrations. I have a feeling organizations like the Sierra Club, plus the gov't of Mexico would have issues with it as well.

That would be one huge body of water!

[theprotectors]

hmmmmm. What Are we going to do with all that salt? On our eggs?
Sorry I couldnt resist anyway It seems to me that we need both the water and the salt to live. True?
(I Know It Is)
Even the fish need it to live. And food too...
Sorry I lost track.
Parting the sea no one has done. But parting the Nile. Only Moses did (exodus).

Onething more, the only way that Huge body of water would come is if the Icecaplse sort of melted all away in one second. And I Hope that will never happen.

Be safe all.

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Protector: It wouldn't take any icecap melting. The desert around Brawley and El Centro is lower than the present sea level, all we'd have to do is establish a connection with the Gulf of California and we'd have salt water. The Salton Sea (the thing under discussion at the start of the thread) would then be connected to the ocean water in the old desert floor, which would be connected to the Gulf, which is connected to the Pacific Ocean, which is surely a sufficient source of water.

All that stands in the way are some insignificant little hills, and there's a major geologic fault line running under them. Just a tiny bit of encouragement and I'm sure we could get a modest little seaway going here.

If we decide to go with the Colorado river option, all we'd have to do is divert the thing, let it fill up the below-sea-level desert basin making a giant inland lake, and the lake would eventually establish an outflow. Probably somewhere near to where it runs into the Gulf of California now, but not necessarily. It might etch away at those little hills mentioned above, dig a hole where the earth is already disturbed above the San Andreas fault, no telling what happiness might then ensue.

Speaking of which, I'm sure Arizona would sue. But by the time it got to the supreme court, the inland lake would be full and they'd have their water back at Yuma, and it would be OK again.

[OperaTenor]

I keep having this vision of a map showing this theoretical lake, filling most of Imperial Valley, stretching from the U.S./Mexico border north to just southeast of Indio?!! I have a feeling that would cause pretty significant climatic changes in the region. Can you say "humidity?"

Lakefront property at the Chocolate mountains, anyone?

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

I had a thought. (Alert the Media!) Didn't I see somewhere that the army or somebody is looking for a nice safe useful place to get rid of some old H.E. bombs? Maybe it was the Air Force?

If we use a little preplanned earth slippage to modify a hill or two, that should stress-relieve the fault, right? Might be a good thing? Practical Earthquake Prevention 101!

[piqaboo]

Why not isolate and purify the selenium? Its a commercial product, and the sea is "kind" enough to leach it out of the soil for free.

Salt, ditto. Sort of reverse desalinization, where instead of a product of sweet water, the product is kosher salt.

I think its hilarious that in the 70's there was too much water flowing into it, so that had to be stopped, and now there's been not enough ever since, so that has to be stopped......

It could use a good flushing now and again, fer shure. This spring may be the best time, with record snowpacks, the CO should be flowing abundantly. We could re-fill Mono Lake while we are at it.
I wonder if ?tufa (sp?) from Mono Lake would act as a seed? Perhaps we can establish self-building selenium towers within the Salton Sea? Kinda like making rock salt.

Someone could write a symphony about the birth and revival of the Salton Sea & have it performed to raise funds to pay for the seeding process. (tied into music)

[OperaTenor]

Originally posed by Selma in Sandy Eggo:
Didn't I see somewhere that the army or somebody is looking for a nice safe useful place to get rid of some old H.E. bombs? Maybe it was the Air Force?

If we use a little preplanned earth slippage to modify a hill or two, that should stress-relieve the fault, right? Might be a good thing? Practical Earthquake Prevention 101!

Isn't that on the order of cloud seeding? Somehow, I don't think we have the cumulative explosive power to incite a geological event.

Think of the amount of energy it took to blow the top off Mt. St. Helens. That eruption lasted for quite a span of time, and it still wasn't enough power to set off an earthquake or cause any fault slippage on its own.

And then there's that most eloquent expression of the amount of power behind fault slippage: The December 26th tsunami.

Makes our man-made destructive capability seem like chopped liver......



<small>[ 03-10-2005, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>

[barfle]

One of the issues I recall regarding the Salton Sea is that migrating birds consider it a wetland, and have for several bird generations (which don't take all that long, except for macaws). The fact that the water is becoming toxic with selenium is a concern for those birds' welfare (the birds don't seem to recognize the problem, which might be a result of being born with bird brains).

There are types who believe that preserving the ecological status quo should take precedence over supporting the performing arts, even though we know that the ecology naturally changes over time.

It's a low spot, so it's going to collect stuff until it fills up, which will be a long time in the future. The Colorado River doesn't have enough water to make it to the Gulf of California any more, so it's not a useful resource for filling it back up.

Sometimes nature is a real mother.

[barfle]

Originally posted by OperaTenor:
Think of the amount of energy it took to blow the top off Mt. St. Helens. That eruption lasted for quite a span of time, and it still wasn't enough power to set off an earthquake or cause any fault slippage on its own.

Actually, the pressure buildup caused an earthquake, which made the top slip off, which released the pressure. Unless you're not talking about the big blast in 1980.

[OperaTenor]

One of the problems with it as an ecosystem is that it can't seem to sustain anything for very long anymore. Bird and fish populations seem to be going through some pretty radical swings in size over a relatively short length of time.

To me, there's been nothing "natural" about the Salton Sea since the irrigation levee broke in 1905. I don't know that any more artificial intervention to try to "preserve" it is warranted. I especially don't want to foot the bill for it.

As for the welfare of the folks living in the area, it's kind of like living in the Mississippi flood plain: There are certain risks involved with living there. If you don't want the risks, move.

[OperaTenor]

I happened to be in college, taking a course in historical geology in Eugene, Oregon in the spring of 1908. We talked about Mt. St. Helens ever other class session. It was almost like having a play-by-play ringside seat to the event.

The earthquake wasn't caused by the blast, but by fault slippage underneath, as was the pyroclastic movement which blew the the top off. There was a column of pyroclastic magma putting pressure on the mountain from below, and the seismic event acted as the trigger to set everything off, the displacement of the mountain top plus the eruption.

However, it's been 25 years, I may not remember it accurately.

My point was that even the power released in that blast wasn't enough to cause an earthquake, and that blast was more powerful than anything we can cough up.

[barfle]

As old as I am, I don't remember what that area was like before the Salton Sea was formed, so I'm unable to comment intelligently on what it ought to look like, but I know it's well below sea level and that will make it collect things like whatever water falls as rain in the area. I also know it's just a big cesspool, and the wildlife that use it don't really know any better. Similar things with Great Salt Lake, the Dead Sea, Lake Elsinore, and a few other bodies of water that have no outlet (like the Pacific Ocean, except it has enough mass to not change quite so rapidly).

So I'm supposing there was always a "badwater" spot there, just not as large as what's there now.

As far as Mt. St. Helens is concerned, I remember hearing that a quake actually slipped the top of the mountain, releasing the volcanic activity.

However, we have caused earthquakes through human action. When Lake Mead began filling after the construction of Boulder/Hoover Dam, the weight of the water caused several quakes. There is also some evidence that mining and wells can result in earth slippage.

[Shapley]

OT,

RE:I happened to be in college, taking a course in historical geology in Eugene, Oregon in the spring of 1908. We talked about Mt. St. Helens ever other class session. It was almost like having a play-by-play ringside seat to the event.

Really? In 1908? I thought Mt. St. Helens was presumed to be extinct back then.

But then my memory of events 97 years ago is a little foggy.

V/R
Shapley

[OperaTenor]

Thank you!

1980.

Just remember, dyslexia is K.O.

[Serenity]

Will there be a BBB in 9180?

[dai bread]

It'll probably be telepathic & I'll be posting on it in Life #94 (or thereabouts).