Bankruptcy for Fun and Profit

Everyone loves a healthy debate. Post an idea or comment about a current event or issue. Let others post their ideas also. This area is for those who love to explore other points of view.

Moderator: Nicole Marie

Re: Bankruptcy for Fun and Profit

Postby mamagrabber » Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:21 pm

I want to give you another side to this issue. I live in a rural community with a population of around 4,500. A few years ago we had two large local businesses take out bankruptcy due to poor management. Several of the creditors were also local businesses. You can imagine the effect this had on our small town. This caused several small businesses to close their doors because of these two.

The two owners of the bankrupt businesses have started over with new businesses and seem to be doing fine THIS TIME. However, there was no relief for the others that had to write off the debts. I think we forget that real people are affected along with big business.

ko
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing.
Clive James
mamagrabber
5th Chair
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:01 am
Location: kansas

Re: Bankruptcy for Fun and Profit

Postby Shapley » Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:28 pm

Piq,

I'm curious which credit card companies you deal with. I'll agree that I've never been in a position to have to negotiate, but I have requested, and recieved, a better deal simply by calling. The secret, I suppose, is to not get to point that you have to negotiate before you begin to. I also realize that not everyone has that advantage.

However, I don't see what it is that is so onerous about the new bankruptcy bill. It is my understanding that its primary focus is to require those with some ability to pay to establish a payment schedule instead of "walking asay from 100% of the debt", which you and I seem to agree is the appropriate course of action. Why is the bill so distasteful?

V/R
Shapley
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15163
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Re: Bankruptcy for Fun and Profit

Postby piqaboo » Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:18 pm

S, Mostly because of the personal trust loophole and the incorporation loophole - it leaves the better off a way to stash the cash. And the old law is distasteful because of the extra punishement for those who try to pay vs those who dont bother.

I've dealt with a number of different cc companies. I've never had to negotiate a better deal. I'm not arguing from a position of self-interest, but from observation of other hardworking and perhaps braver* or not as lucky folks that I have known over the years.
* I dont have the guts to bet everything on a business. Im a 'salaryman' to the core.

ks organist - thank you a perfect example. I would be interested if they defaulted under the new law, would they have to pay out slowly until done or not? Under the old law, they'd find it much harder to get new credit (and start over, making a profit this go round which would enhance their abilty to pay old debts) if they tried to make good their debts rather than just dumping.
Altoid - curiously strong.
piqaboo
1st Chair
 
Posts: 7135
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:01 am
Location: Paradise (So. Cal.)

Re: Bankruptcy for Fun and Profit

Postby shostakovich » Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:04 pm

I finally got back to the boards. From Dai Bread:

"Standard practice in the spec. building industry is to set up a company for a project and liquidate it when the project is finished. That way, no-one can get at you when the building starts rotting, and you can start another company in your own name because the liquidation was voluntary. Ain't the law wonderful?"

This is a pretty shabby "standard practice". It seems that if a "company" guarantees its work for X number of years, the individuals who are the company should be on the hook for that long. Apparently not so.
------------------------------------------------------
From OT: "Hi Shos,

I posted concerning this bankruptcy "reform" bill on the "Is George Bush the right leader..." thread."

Oops! I guess I read Newsweek more thoroughly than that thread.
------------------------------------------------------
From Shapley: "BTW, Credit cards can't "suck your blood" unless you let them. They have their advantages and disadvantages. The point is, one cannot blame the credit cards for fiscal mismanagement."

Shap, you seem to have a much higher opinion of the average Joe's abilities to control his life, judge rationally, act honorably, etc than I have. If you were right, organizations like alcoholics anonymous, gamblers anonymous, etc would not be necessary. You are right that credit cards could not suck blood if the holders didn't let them. My blood-sucking comment referred to the obscene interest rates (about 20% or more I think).
As Piq pointed out, the cc companies entice people into borrowing, and they zone in on those who carry a balance (for obvious reasons). They do not pursue people who won't let them suck blood. As I said in the first post, the very concept of the credit card is abhorrent to me. Now it's an industry, and I blame it for taking advantage of a segment of the population. It follows that I also blame those who protect it, regardless of party. Credit cards are a cancer on society, IMO.

-----------------------------------------------------
From Haggis: "I agree that the new law is bad law but I agree with Shape that this can’t be blamed on Bush, just because some of you think that everything bad in your life is his fault.

“The milk’s gone bad! That’s G*****m Bush, this is his fault!!!”"

Well, doggone. My milk DID taste a little sour today. It never occurred to me why. Thank you, Haggis. :D
shostakovich
1st Chair
 
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2000 1:01 am
Location: windsor, ct, usa

Re: Bankruptcy for Fun and Profit

Postby OperaTenor » Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:49 am

Say......

My milk was a little sour this morning......

Must be a conspiracy!
"To help mend the world is true religion."
- William Penn

http://www.one.org
OperaTenor
Patron
 
Posts: 10457
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Paradise with Piq & Altoid, southern California

Re: Bankruptcy for Fun and Profit

Postby barfle » Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:40 pm

Originally posted by piqaboo:
No way OT - nice try tho ;) . If we lock you up in prison, we have to pay for your health care! :eek: !!!
Don't you do that already?

Sorry. Cheap shot (not really sorry, but it WAS a cheap shot).

I know that it's far too easy to get a credit card (I shred about one "preaproved" application every day), and if you look at the ceiling on it as an amount of money "you have," it's real easy to get in over your head. Although I believe one should pay one's debts, the temptors are not free from guilt when some naive kid finds themselves in a fix not entirely of their own making.

I carry two credit cards. One is my personal card and one is for family expenses. I buy my own clothes, my A/V gear, most of my tools, my commuting expenses with my personal card. I buy groceries, stuff for the house, car parts, etc., with the "family" card. Both are paid off every month, unless there is an extraordinary expense.

Can everyone live like that? I believe they can, but it took me decades to acquire the maturity to be able to do that. I have carried large balances on credit cards, and learned a tough lesson that 22% plus $40 can put quite a hitch in yer git-along. I suspect that there are many people who get a credit card, don't realize that paying it back is as expensive as buying the stuff with "real money," and find themselves with a debt they cannot service.

Again, part (but only part) of the blame goes to the credit card companies who give away cards with $20,000 limits to people who already have two years of their salary tied up in credit card debt. That's just stupid on their part. They have to know they won't get their money back.
--I know what I like--
barfle
1st Chair
 
Posts: 6123
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Springfield, Vahjinyah, USA

Re: Bankruptcy for Fun and Profit

Postby piqaboo » Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:48 pm

ah, but barfle, if we lock OT up, you and Shapley will have to share in paying the cost of his health care. :eek: And you guys wont even get a piece of jewelry out of the deal!

What do you guys think of those new mortgages - super low initial rate pay no principle for the first 3-5-7 years, at which time the rate adjusts to the market rate and the loan starts amortizing?
Altoid - curiously strong.
piqaboo
1st Chair
 
Posts: 7135
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:01 am
Location: Paradise (So. Cal.)

Re: Bankruptcy for Fun and Profit

Postby barfle » Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:10 pm

Thanks just the same, Mrs. Tenor. I'll let you keep covering the world-famous semi-professional Mr. Tenor's medical expenses.

Actually, we got one of those mortgage offers. Property values here are rising almost as fast as my federal employee salary brings in money, and if we were intending to sell quick and make a killing in the market, an interest- only loan wouldn't be all that bad an idea. But we're here until retirement, and hopefully a few more years to enjoy all the work we're putting in the joint (ceramic tile installed last weekend - all muscles and most joints are still sore).

With a new home loan, the principal drops pretty slowly for the first several year, so in a flat market, your equity would be building very slowly. But in a hot market, where my house is appreciating by $50,000 over the past year, that rise in equity because of your payment of principal is trivial. At least that's the idea. Buy a house, get an interest-only mortgage, sell in five years and walk away with a quarter mil. Not bad, eh?
--I know what I like--
barfle
1st Chair
 
Posts: 6123
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Springfield, Vahjinyah, USA

Re: Bankruptcy for Fun and Profit

Postby Shapley » Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:52 pm

Piq,

RE:And you guys wont even get a piece of jewelry out of the deal!

I'm sure we could talk him out of a nice set of vanity plates.
:D

V/R
Shapley
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15163
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Re: Bankruptcy for Fun and Profit

Postby OperaTenor » Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:00 pm

Originally posted by Shapley:

I'm sure we could talk him out of a nice set of vanity plates.
:D

V/R
Shapley
It depends on what you want them to say.

Jim "deadbeat and charity case" B.
"To help mend the world is true religion."
- William Penn

http://www.one.org
OperaTenor
Patron
 
Posts: 10457
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Paradise with Piq & Altoid, southern California

Re: Bankruptcy for Fun and Profit

Postby piqaboo » Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:38 pm

So you guys are both against the idea of debtor's prison, I take it.

The plates should say "Vanity", of course! :D

Ahwell, MrB, at least you are not a scofflaw! ;)
Altoid - curiously strong.
piqaboo
1st Chair
 
Posts: 7135
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:01 am
Location: Paradise (So. Cal.)

Re: Bankruptcy for Fun and Profit

Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:02 pm

Can you see the Ugly Truckling with plates that say

Mc Caww

?
>^..^<
Selma in Sandy Eggo
1st Chair
 
Posts: 6273
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:01 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Bankruptcy for Fun and Profit

Postby Haggis@wk » Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:44 am

There's a story that one of the biggies on Wall Street, just before the crash in 1929, was going to work and was shocked to hear the elevator operator discussing stock market investments. Convinced the investment bubble was about to burst, the businessman (Rockefeller, or one of those?) supposedly sold out and had all his money in cash when the market collapse.

There’s probably some loose similarity between that and when a bulletin board on a classical music website starts to discussing residential real estate investment strategies.

Just an observtion :D
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
Haggis@wk
1st Chair
 
Posts: 6049
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:01 am
Location: Home office

Re: Bankruptcy for Fun and Profit

Postby NateBrei » Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:29 pm

There’s been a fair amount of discussion here on debt repayments. I’d like to provide another perspective on credit cards. But, please bear with me as I’m not nearly as good a debater nor as eloquent and concise as all of you. You may already be aware of all this information, and if so, please ignore this post.

I work for a credit card issuing bank. Keep in mind that a bank is still a business & as such needs/wants to earn a reasonable rate of return on its financial investments comparable to other companies. This is a very complex business with so many inter-related factors.

Most credit card issuing institutions are banks and, as such, are regulated by the OCC {Office of the Comptroller of the Currency}. We have semi-annual OCC audits with which we have to comply with OCC mandated risk levels, legal compliance, and service levels. This ensures that we do not assume inappropriate risk {customers likely to default} as well as ensuring that we are not making a windfall profit at the expense of our customers {even if competition would allow it}.

Card companies need to make enough money from “good” customers to pay for the “bad” {or non-performing} customers, to cover the costs of business, and to still make a reasonable profit.

Card companies receive a small amount of money from each credit transaction. There are two sides of a transaction; the consumer & the merchant. In a transaction, for the convenience of obtaining their money immediately and not having to worry about bad checks, a merchant foregoes a certain percentage of the sale {usually about 2%}. This percentage is called interchange and is split between the card company issuing the card to the consumer and the merchant company that processes the transaction. So, for a $100 sale, the issuing company would receive $1. Ergo, for each $1000 that charges-off, we’d have to have $100,000 {or 100 times that amount} in sales just to break even with our losses.

Quantification of default risk is paramount at almost all credit card companies. Therefore, companies use credit scoring. The most commonly known score is the credit bureau score / FICO score/ Risk score. Every credit consumer has a score with potentially each of 3 credit bureaus based on statistical modeling of defaults. The higher the score, the less likely an account is to default. As more risky behaviors are identified, the score declines. As part of the FACT Act, each person can receive a free copy of their credit report from each of the three credit bureaus once every 12 months. The following link shows when the free reports are available, by region of the country, & provides a link to request one.
Free Credit Reports

Besides the FICO score, our company has a whole department of statiticians who develop and validate internal scores to quantify & predict future default risks for different aspects of our business. We have Behavior scores, Attrition scores, Bankruptcy scores, Profit scores, Response scores, Repayment scores, etc.

Since competition for “Good” risk customers is fierce and the OCC determines in large part where the risk score cutoff is for new customers, interest rates for good revolving customers are fairly low {usually < 10% fixed with a bunch of 0% balance transfer promotions}. However, as a customer starts exhibiting more default risk behaviors {late payments, bad checks, significant amount of cash advances, and balances approaching credit limits}, scores change & risk compensating interest rates are often applied. Our penalty prices currently range from 14.86% to 24.86% APR with the highest rates applied to the highest default risk consumers. So, if one assumes good customers with a 10% interest rate, for each $1,000 in charge-offs, we would need revolving balances of $10,000 to break even just with the losses. So, the objective is to detemine appropriate interest rates for given levels of default risk so that the “Good” customers don’t have to subsidize all the losses from the “Bad” customers.

We are NOT one of the top ten issuers and we still charge-off over $15 MILLION PER MONTH with more than half of that amount due to Bankruptcies and the rest simply non-payment and a relatively minor fraud amount. So, you can see why so much effort is expended in our company to reduce charge-offs. Recovery of a significant portion of those charge-offs would lower the costs {think interest rates and purchase prices} for everyone. This holds true not only for credit cards, but for car loans, home loans, funiture/appliance/consumer goods purchases, and just about anything else we buy whether we charge it or pay cash.

Obviously, our ideal customer would be one with no negative items in their credit history, that carries a reasonable amount of revolving credit {at our lowest interest rates} compared with their limit, makes on-time monthly payments of some amount over the minimum due, and continues to charge the balance back up each month. However, some “Good” customers are only transactors {don’t carry a balance} so we only get the interchange fee. On the other hand, obviously a fairly large number of our customers don’t pay their debts and, since we lose money on them, those losses have to be offset with higher interest rates on all account balances {good customers & bad}.

Although I don’t agree with all the tactics of the credit card industry, I agree with Shapley. We are providing a financial service convenience for both the consumer and the merchant. We don’t force anyone to use the credit. Our organization attempts to reward “Good” customers and limit the losses and recoup as much of them as possible from the “Bad” customers. Our country was founded on personal responsibility and that should hold true with use of credit as well.

Also, one final note. Besides the normal financial transactions {i.e. credit cards, home loans, business loans, car loans, etc. from banks} that use credit scoring, other companies are using them as well such as home & auto insurance, businesses that allow credit, rent-to-own companies, etc. So, if you have financial trouble in one area, chances are likely that you will be paying more for services in many areas of your life. As Crosby, Stills, Nash, & Young sang {am I dating myself here?} “Teach Your Children Well”.

Nate

<small>[ 04-28-2005, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: NateBrei ]</small>
NateBrei
4th Chair
 
Posts: 121
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:01 am
Location: Omaha, NE

Re: Bankruptcy for Fun and Profit

Postby Shapley » Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:51 pm

Thanks Nate,

I must warn you, you've now crossed over to the dark side, by supporting me, so watch out for those light sabers! :D

V/R

Shapley
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15163
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Re: Bankruptcy for Fun and Profit

Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:58 pm

I'm keeping my credit cards, by gum. Don't care who says they're evil.

I think there's even a balance on two, because I bought a bed and paid for some car repairs this last month. Betcha there won't be a balance in a couple of months, though.

We can sing that CSN&Y song together, though. There's a melody, a counter melody, a harmony, and an occasional descant. I can do that.
>^..^<
Selma in Sandy Eggo
1st Chair
 
Posts: 6273
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:01 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Bankruptcy for Fun and Profit

Postby piqaboo » Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:52 pm

Originally posted by Selma in Sandy Eggo:
I'm keeping my credit cards, by gum.
I dont use mine to by candy. I use mine to buy shoes.
Altoid - curiously strong.
piqaboo
1st Chair
 
Posts: 7135
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:01 am
Location: Paradise (So. Cal.)

Re: Bankruptcy for Fun and Profit

Postby OperaTenor » Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:08 pm

Hi Nate,

Thanks for the information, especially for tying all of the facets together.

The only part I have issue with is the blues singing obver charge-offs. Why not make credit harder to obtain? Make it harder for the flakes to get? Why not exercise more discretion when handing out credit in the first place? To me, that would be more of a head-'em-off-at-the-pass approach, instead of this "reform" which penalizes those who really need debt relief along with the deserving roaches(yep, I know that term).
Any other business has to take steps from within to keep overhead/losses down. What makes the credit business exempt from that practice?
Once again, there were attempts to make this bill a little more accommodating when it came to special groups(veterans, the elderly, people under insurmountable medical debt, etc.). All of those amendments were rejected by the bill's sponsors. Why?

<small>[ 04-28-2005, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>
"To help mend the world is true religion."
- William Penn

http://www.one.org
OperaTenor
Patron
 
Posts: 10457
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Paradise with Piq & Altoid, southern California

Re: Bankruptcy for Fun and Profit

Postby Shapley » Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:50 pm

OT,

Re:What makes the credit business exempt from that practice?

They are regulated by government, therefore they have to turn to that same government for changes to the order of business.


All of those amendments were rejected by the bill's sponsors. Why?

Fair and equal application of the law, as the Constitution requires, perhaps?
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
Shapley
Patron
 
Posts: 15163
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO

Re: Bankruptcy for Fun and Profit

Postby OperaTenor » Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:52 am

Oh no they don't! I'm not buyin' that one. :p The gov't doesn't tell them who they have to extend gredit to, beyond discriminatroy practices(and no, it's not discriminatory to deny credit to a bad credit risk).

There are exceptions made to all kinds of laws for all kinds of reasons, for all kinds of people(how about the cap on SS tax, for one? I wouldn't exactly consider that to be "fair and equal application of the law"), so I don't think so on that one, either.

Nice tries, though.

<small>[ 04-29-2005, 01:52 AM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>
"To help mend the world is true religion."
- William Penn

http://www.one.org
OperaTenor
Patron
 
Posts: 10457
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Paradise with Piq & Altoid, southern California

PreviousNext

Return to The Debate Team

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron