El Destructo

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El Destructo

Postby shostakovich » Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:51 am

I've been thinking of the John Bolton nomination. Here is a man committed to following the president's orders (blindly it seems to me --- a condition essential to Bush) rather than negotiating. He will be a messenger rather than a diplomat. The result will be fracturing of the UN, and an opportunity for the US to pull out (or threaten to, make demands, and have others pull out). The end result will be destruction of the UN.

If this sounds off the wall, take Social Security "reform" and Medicare "reform" (read "fracturing, followed by destruction"). Medicare has already been destroyed (a curse on Congress and the treasonous AARP). Bush is stubbornly promoting the eventual end of SS presently.

There are other "destructions" to his credit that I don't want to bother with now. What bothers me is that he seems to appeal to those he's screwing. He talks a good game. I was impressed with his speech writers and his photo ops during the campaign.

The man is relatively inarticulate without his writers, and operates on a gut level rather than an intellectual level. I keep bouncing between "He's so stupid, he doesn't know what he's doing" and "He's vicious (or his managers are), and is hiding behind a facade of feigned obliviousness". The result is the same in either case.

I expect some will agree with me and some not. But I'm glad we have a forum to get such things out of my system. Thank you B.com.
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Re: El Destructo

Postby Shapley » Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:08 am

Shos,

One man cannot bring down the U.N., although it does need to be lowered a notch or two.

There are serious problems at the U.N., as the oil-for-food scandal should make clear. We need someone who's not afraid to confront the assembly, and the issues, in order to make progress.

You make the analogy to Social Security and Medicare, and it is a good one. They all need either to be repaired or abolished. We cannot afford to maintain any of them in their present conditions. I don't know if Bolton will be the man to straighten out the U.N.'s problems, but I think it is bloody well time to give him the opportunity. The hearings have dragged on too long, and the only thing his opponents have come up with is that they don't like him.

the preceeding is the opinion of one poster on the Beethoven.com Bulleting Board. It does not necessarily reflect the opinion of the Staff at Beethoven.com, nor of the majority of the Bulletin Board participants.

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Re: El Destructo

Postby Marye » Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:37 am

It does not necessarily reflect the opinion of the Staff at Beethoven.com, nor of the majority of the Bulletin Board participants . (emphasis added)
Lol Shap.. :D
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Re: El Destructo

Postby OperaTenor » Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:05 am

Senator George Voinovich(that Republican traitor), said it best:

"the poster child of what someone in the diplomatic corps should not be. . . . The United States can do better than John Bolton."

Shap, El Destructo himself said he'd like to do a little more than just lower the UN a "notch or two"(If the UN building “lost ten stories it wouldn’t make a bit of difference).

As for OFF, there is increasing evidence that the scandal was blown way out of proportion, much of it trumped up. And it pales in comparison with our fiscal irresponsibility and corruption in Iraq. Can you say, "Show me the $8.8 billion"?

<small>[ 06-01-2005, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>
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Re: El Destructo

Postby Shapley » Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:03 pm

OT,

Where do you find evidence that the oil-for-food scandal was blown out of proportion? I've looked and found nothing.

According to reports I've found, estimates are that Saddam extorted about $21,000,000,000 dollars, which hardly "pales in comparison" to the $8,800,000,000 you cite. If there is fiscal irresponsibility in Iraq, we have agencies to deal with it. On the other hand, there seems to be no oversight at the U.N., and the seem to have little interest in dealing with the problem, and lots of interest in seeing it go away:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/28/world/main691734.shtml

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Re: El Destructo

Postby Haggis@wk » Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:11 pm

First of all, the hype against Bolton is just as goofy as the initial hype against Pricilla Owens, i.e. she was too terrible to allow on the federal bench but all of a sudden she was good enough for Robert Byrd, who even voted for her.

As far as I can determine, Bolton’s biggest fault with Democrats is that he will represent U.S. interests first and the “world community” second

(preferably 9th or 10th for me, but as long as the U.S. is first I’ll accept whatever designation he chooses)

I suppose that if you think the U.S. is always wrong or should never come first all the time, then yes, Mr. Bolton’s appointment will disappoint you.

The U.S. is the largest donor country to the UN and, in fact, without the U.S. donations, the UN would cease to exist. If Pres. Bush was in a mood to screw with the UN, he’d simply do what Pres. Clinton did, withhold (or cancel) our donation.

U.S. Donation to the UN

” The United States is the largest financial contributor to the U.N., and has been every year since its creation in 1945. U.S. contributions to the U.N. system in 2003 were well over $3 billion. In-kind contributions include items such as food donations for the World Food Program.”

Do you feel we are getting any kind of decent return on our investment? I don’t.

There are more than a few Americans who believe that the UN has ceased to have any relevancy in the world. I’m not one of them, yet. But I’m getting closer everyday. Personally, I’m tired my tax dollars are paying the salaries of the ambassadors from some of the most despotic countries on the face of the earth.


I think Bolton will be good for America’s interests at the UN and personally feel that if he can’t success then we should consider withdrawing all support to the UN.

Fortunately, as in the case of Ms. Owens, the Democrats objections to Bolton are simply partisan efforts to give them some negotiating points and they’ll abandon their objections as soon as they feel they have made their point.

In other words, they no more have any principled objections to Mr. Bolton than they did for Ms. Owens, it’s all politics.

I'm sorry you mistake their rhetoric as fact.


Bloomberg


Condoleezza Rice revealed in a speech yesterday that a consortium of nations, including the US, stopped nuclear material from reaching Iran as well as other rogue nations over the last nine months. The participating nations of the Proliferation Security Initiative have quietly cooperated on eleven interdictions during that time, at least one of those directly involving Teheran:

”The U.S. and its allies in a program to stop the spread of weapons of mass destruction prevented Iran from obtaining material for its nuclear weapons program within the past nine months, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said.

``The trans-shipment of material and equipment bound for ballistic missile programs in countries of concern, including Iran'' was blocked as was the transfer of ``equipment used to produce propellant'' to a ``ballistic missile program in another region'' of the world, Rice said. ...

Rice gave no details but said that the U.S. and 10 of its partners in the initiative have cooperated on 11 successful interdiction efforts over the past nine months. Iran was the only nation interdicted that she cited by name.

``PSI partners, working at times with others, have prevented Iran from procuring goods to support its missile and WMD programs, including its nuclear program,'' she said at the State Department in Washington.

Assistant Secretary of State for Arms Control Stephen Rademaker said the U.S. is withholding details of the interdictions to ensure continued cooperation from countries that do not want their participation made public.”


Notice that Iran, who must have expected that shipment to arrive, never publicly demanded its release once held up.

Those who believe that Iran needs such a program when it sits on top of one of the world's largest oil reserves should rethink their position in light of this news.

Who was the man who made the diplomatic arrangements to get over 60 nations involved in PSI? Why ... none other than that hardass meanie, John Bolton. Go figure
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Re: El Destructo

Postby OperaTenor » Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:30 pm

And let's not forget North Korea's arsenal of nuclear warheads went from 0 to 6(estimated) under Bolton's watch.
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Re: El Destructo

Postby Shapley » Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:33 pm

OT,

And another person would have prevented this how?????

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Re: El Destructo

Postby piqaboo » Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:02 pm

& Bolton will win cooperation from the UN, how?

This is a zero sum game.
OT's point is as valid as Haggis's.
The guy formed a group that did some interdictions, but didnt score 100%.
In some games, thats winning. In others, its losing.
Shap, your question is irrelevant.
Altoid - curiously strong.
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Re: El Destructo

Postby Shapley » Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:16 pm

Not so. My question is a logical extension of the statement presented.

OT opposes our pre-emptive strikes in Iraq because they are unjustified. He seems to imply that some type of pre-emptive action was called for in North Korea, although he doesn't specify what action is called for. He implies that Bolton's actions were insufficient, somehow adding to his disqualification to the post of U.N. ambassador. I was inquirying as to what actions would have prevented the buildup, and thus qualified him for the position.

It is no less relevant than the statement which prompted it.

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Re: El Destructo

Postby OperaTenor » Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:38 pm

Originally posted by Shapley:

OT opposes our pre-emptive strikes in Iraq because they are unjustified.

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AHA! You admit it!!!!

:p

The Clinton administration managed to keep North Korea's nuclear weapons development program largely at bay(in cooperation with the UN) diplomatically. Bolton was directly responsible for dealings with NK under GWB, and proceeded to bungle it to the point where we lost diplomatic ground, and NK opted to forge ahead with their weapons development.

Yes, our invasion of Iraq is turning out to have been pretty much completely without justification. Given the relative threats, we would have been far more jusitified to take "pre-emptive" action against North Korea than Iraq.

Oh, wait, that's right..................No oil in North Korea..................

<small>[ 06-01-2005, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: OperaTenor ]</small>
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Re: El Destructo

Postby dai bread » Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:05 pm

Mr. Bolton gets a bad press here too. We await developments.

As for the U.N., without something of the sort, we will have either endless wars or a Pax (insert name of current superpower). I don't mean just America either; China is well on the way and so is India, and Britain used to fill that role.

Those who would reform the U.N. are quite right. It's become very unweildy, and, I suspect, self-serving.
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Re: El Destructo

Postby OperaTenor » Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:11 pm

I think it's safe to say everyone generally agrees the UN is in need of reformation. However, in the case of Bolton, he would be so negatively controversial(i.e., he would become the story) he would get in the way of real progress, making enemies along the way.

I agree with Senator Voinovich, the United States can do much better than John Bolton.

Besides, I think his singing sucks.


................oh, wait...................wrong guy........................

:o
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Re: El Destructo

Postby GreatCarouser » Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:15 pm

Re: John Bolton:

This is the headline on Global security. org. Great job, John. You certainly have those North Koreans quaking in their boots.

I don't get Stratford anymore Haggis, what,if anything, are they saying about this?
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Re: El Destructo

Postby BigJon@Work » Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:25 pm

Originally posted by OperaTenor:
Oh, wait, that's right..................No oil in North Korea..................
The answer for why we haven't invaded NK is simple. A million strong standing NK army. Apparently well fed and well trained too. It would be a meat grinder of proportions not seen since the peaks of WWII.

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Re: El Destructo

Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:29 pm

Re the UN - perhaps we should just give the NY cops special permission to enforce all the parking tickets and tow their diplomatic limos away? Perhaps all the various envoys would get into a big-time snit and go home?

We could use the then-empty building to house refugees from various parts of the world, get the new pope to sprinkle them and pronounce blessings, and declare them the new UN?
>^..^<
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Re: El Destructo

Postby Angie Parkes » Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:09 pm

Originally posted by OperaTenor:
I agree with Senator Voinovich, the United States can do much better than John Bolton.

Besides, I think his singing sucks.
ROFL! :D :D
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Re: El Destructo

Postby Shapley » Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:54 am

OT,

Your selective memory is showing again. North Korea was forging ahead with the nuclear program under Bill Clinton. You may recall the "egg-on-the-face" headlines regarding Carter's mission to North Korea, and the firing of one of their non-existant ballistic missiles over the Sea of Japan. Carter boasted of great feats of diplomacy in NK, while their weapons programs grew towards the development of nukes.

India and Pakistan became nuclear powers during Clinton's term as well.

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Re: El Destructo

Postby BigJon@Work » Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:27 am

The Indians have had nukes since Carter's administration, haven't they?

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Re: El Destructo

Postby Shapley » Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:51 am

BigJon,

Actual since Nixon's, I believe. They reportedly conducted an underground test in the early '70s. Their capabilities were rumoured ever since. They conducted several more tests in the late '90s, confirming the rumours. Pakistan followes suit very quickly, much to the surprise of our intelligence community.

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