Bombs strike terror in London

Everyone loves a healthy debate. Post an idea or comment about a current event or issue. Let others post their ideas also. This area is for those who love to explore other points of view.

Moderator: Nicole Marie

Re: Bombs strike terror in London

Postby Haggis@wk » Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:27 am

Adam Gopnik in the New Yorker talking about the London bombings.

”Yet the antiwar left (and right) did not hesitate to blame Blair and Bush for what had happened in London. The bizarre left-wing M.P. George Galloway was the first off the mark, insisting within hours that the bombings were the inevitable payback for the war in Iraq. He was so clearly lacking in tact and a sense of fitness that no one took him seriously. But serious people quickly made the same argument; as early as Friday morning, journalists like Tariq Ali, in the Guardian, were saying flatly that what had happened had happened because Britain was in Iraq. The United States and Britain began the war in Iraq with the certainty, the argument goes, that they would cause many civilian casualties in pursuit of their political goal, and that the response, however brutal and inhumane, is part of the normal calculations of organized violence.

Against this argument is the view that the new kind of terrorism is essentially nihilist and apocalyptic, and that Iraq is only a kind of inchoate excuse. “After all, the African embassy bombings happened before Iraq,” Mark Urban, the diplomatic editor of the BBC program “Newsnight,” said. “The I.R.A. had a political arm, and a political goal, however unreal: they killed to get people to the table.

What is there to negotiate with these people? An end to the American presence in Saudi Arabia? All right, we’ll consider it. The elimination of the State of Israel? Hmm, that may be a bit more difficult. The restoration of a universal Islamic caliphate? It may be a bit of a deal-breaker, that.”


They are killing us not because we are in Iraq, they are killing us because in their teaching we were born apostates and unless we convert to their religion they will continue killing us.

It may be a bit of a deal-breaker, indeed

Refresh my memory, how many troops did Egypt have in Iraq?
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
Haggis@wk
1st Chair
 
Posts: 6040
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:01 am
Location: Home office

Re: Bombs strike terror in London

Postby hal 9000 » Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:27 am

Originally posted by Haggis@wk:

There is lots of good news coming out of Iraq but if you don’t know where to look you won’t see it. You darn sure won’t see it in any of the MSM.
:confused:

And yet I have (on CNN at least).
Gentleman! You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!
hal 9000
1st Chair
 
Posts: 2804
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2002 12:01 am
Location: Gainesville, FL

Re: Bombs strike terror in London

Postby hal 9000 » Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:03 am

Originally posted by Haggis@wk:
Did you realize that the NYT devoted more front page stories to Abu Ghraib than 9/11?
No I did not realize this. Guess that has something to do with the fact that I don't read the NYT. How many front page stories did they devote to each? How many Special Editions did they devote to each?
Gentleman! You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!
hal 9000
1st Chair
 
Posts: 2804
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2002 12:01 am
Location: Gainesville, FL

Re: Bombs strike terror in London

Postby DavidS » Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:14 am

lliam
It is not difficult to understand the dilemma you, I, and everyone in the civilised world faces.
Just for the record, did the poor bloke killed so tragically by the police jump the barrier before, or after, being apprehended?
Tel grain, tel pain.
DavidS
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1357
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:01 am
Location: Originally London, now near Tel-Aviv

Re: Bombs strike terror in London

Postby DavidS » Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:59 am

Originally posted by Haggis@wk:
they are killing us because in their teaching we were born apostates and unless we convert to their religion they will continue killing us.
What worries me is the question: Do the majority of Muslims sincerely believe that apostates who do not convert must be killed?
Frightening! :eek:
Tel grain, tel pain.
DavidS
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1357
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:01 am
Location: Originally London, now near Tel-Aviv

Re: Bombs strike terror in London

Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:31 am

[grammatical quibble] Apostate: One who has abandoned one's religious faith, a political party, one's principles, or a cause. [/grammatical quibble]

It's my understanding that Islam is inherently more militant than many other faiths. Jihad and forced conversion were early features of Islam, and have apparently been always considered proper.

The things that we consider virtues are what they find most abhorrent. That's what scares me worst.
>^..^<
Selma in Sandy Eggo
1st Chair
 
Posts: 6273
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:01 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Bombs strike terror in London

Postby Haggis@wk » Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:38 am

I no longer have access to lexis Nexis but I do have this list of NYT covers on Abu Ghraib than ran consecutively 32 days. There were more after that but without spending a lot of money I can’t give you an exact amount.

Since I can’t specifically back up the claim that there were more front page stories re: Abu Ghraib than 9/11, I’ll withdraw that claim.

I suspect, however, that there were not 32 straight days of 9/11 headlines, but that's only my opinion.

If CNN is actually running reports favorable of our G.I. that's news to me, but I never watch it anymore so I'll take your word on it.

I have to say that if they are it's because they actually have come to realize that all those numbers that says Fox is kicking their butts are, in fact, accurate.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
Haggis@wk
1st Chair
 
Posts: 6040
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:01 am
Location: Home office

Re: Bombs strike terror in London

Postby Haggis@wk » Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:23 pm

Michael Yon’s “Online Magazine has some good news. Yon’s background was as a Special Operator with Special Forces and now he’s an independent reporter in Iraq. You won’t see many reports with his level of in-depth details and knowledge. I wish I could see some of his stuff more widely reported in the MSM. He doesn’t candy coat anything, but he can differentiate between killings and winning.


”The enemy in Iraq does not appear to be weakening; if anything, they are becoming smarter, more complicated and deadlier. But this does not mean they are winning; to imply that getting smarter and deadlier equates to winning, is fallacious. Most accounts of the situation in Iraq focus on enemy "successes" (if success is re-defined as annihilation of civility), while redacting the increasing viability and strength of the Iraqi government, which clearly is outpacing the insurgency.

The Mosul police are now strong enough to launch successful undercover operations, and have been fanning out across Mosul and surrounding villages, snooping and listening for snippets. On July 15th, police working undercover in a village Northwest of Mosul heard a group of villagers talking about a weapons cache, but the location was not mentioned. Iraqi forces locked down the village, searched and found a weapons depot from Syria into Mosul. Iraqi police also found and rescued the 28 year-old woman I mentioned briefly in the last dispatch. She was the wife of a Mosul journalist, and had been kidnapped and held for ransom by members of a beheading cell. After the village search, police hauled four men to a Mosul station for interrogation, and alerted the Americans.”


read the whole thing
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” Alexis De Tocqueville 1835
Haggis@wk
1st Chair
 
Posts: 6040
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:01 am
Location: Home office

Re: Bombs strike terror in London

Postby DavidS » Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:40 pm

Originally posted by Selma in Sandy Eggo:
[grammatical quibble] Apostate: One who has abandoned one's religious faith, a political party, one's principles, or a cause. [/grammatical quibble]
Selma, you are quite right: the proper term is "infidel" (would that be another reason why Cuba has been suspected of harbouring terrorists? - but that one must have grown a long beard... ;) )
But I still don't get it - I thought the Koran shows some sympathy for the other monotheistic religions, where its roots are. Muslims are even happy to eat kosher meat, whose rules for slaughter and preparation they recognise as being stricter than the Islam "hallal" precepts.

It's my understanding that Islam is inherently more militant than many other faiths. Jihad and forced conversion were early features of Islam, and have apparently been always considered proper.
Crusades and forced conversion (inquisition) were once features of other faiths as well, which have clearly grown out of it, so maybe there is still hope.

The things that we consider virtues are what they find most abhorrent.
The converse is unfortunately also true.

That's what scares me worst.
But (again) what proportion of Muslims in the world have such an extreme outlook?

<small>[ 07-26-2005, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: DavidS ]</small>
Tel grain, tel pain.
DavidS
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1357
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:01 am
Location: Originally London, now near Tel-Aviv

Re: Bombs strike terror in London

Postby BigJon@Work » Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:03 pm

Originally posted by Haggis@wk:
Michael Yon’s “Online Magazine
What a great writer.

BigJon
"I am a 12 foot lizard." GCR Jan 31, 2006
BigJon@Work
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 2252
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 12:01 am
Location: work. Duh!

Re: Bombs strike terror in London

Postby dai bread » Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:48 pm

A couple of questions arise from the London shooting.

1. The police caught the man and had him down. Why did they then shoot him?

2. In a shooting in a public place, what happens to the bullets? I doubt if they all stay in the body, and some surely miss. What's the level of "collateral damage"?

As for your comments, Haggis, about the MSM, you may well be right. I can't think of any good news from Iraq published in our media, not since the one about Chalabi failing to obtain office. I seem to remember that you've posted a few links to good news stories. Could you post some more?
We have no money; we must use our brains. -Ernest Rutherford.
dai bread
1st Chair
 
Posts: 3020
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cambridge, New Zealand

Re: Bombs strike terror in London

Postby dai bread » Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:54 pm

Now I'll read Michael Yon.
We have no money; we must use our brains. -Ernest Rutherford.
dai bread
1st Chair
 
Posts: 3020
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cambridge, New Zealand

Re: Bombs strike terror in London

Postby dai bread » Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:11 pm

I'm impressed. Real journalism: "this is what I saw happen; draw your own conclusions".

The story of the Iraqi police freeing the hostage reminded me that it was they who freed an Australian engineer who had been captured.

So that's another good-news story from Iraq.
We have no money; we must use our brains. -Ernest Rutherford.
dai bread
1st Chair
 
Posts: 3020
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:01 am
Location: Cambridge, New Zealand

Re: Bombs strike terror in London

Postby DavidS » Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:32 am

What a brave man Michael Yon is - exposing himself to the horrors of Iraq so that the world can learn the truth!
He and others like him deserve our humble respect.
Tel grain, tel pain.
DavidS
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1357
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:01 am
Location: Originally London, now near Tel-Aviv

Re: Bombs strike terror in London

Postby hal 9000 » Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:14 pm

Here is some really Good News coming out of Iraq. Let's hope it is true.
Gentleman! You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!
hal 9000
1st Chair
 
Posts: 2804
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2002 12:01 am
Location: Gainesville, FL

Re: Bombs strike terror in London

Postby haggis » Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:03 pm

heh.
I'm taking bets, how soon will a prominent Democrat start complaining that we're pulling out too soon?

That's the problem when you decide to take a negative position on everything the president's administration says, sometimes it'll get you in trouble!
Haggis

A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing
haggis
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1150
Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 12:01 am
Location: warm, humid, and wonderfully sticky Dallas, Texas!!

Re: Bombs strike terror in London

Postby hal 9000 » Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:12 pm

Originally posted by Haggis:
heh.
I'm taking bets, how soon will a prominent Democrat start complaining that we're pulling out too soon?

That's the problem when you decide to take a negative position on everything the president's administration says, sometimes it'll get you in trouble!
Yes, and the italicized part of the above quote isn't a negative position?
Gentleman! You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!
hal 9000
1st Chair
 
Posts: 2804
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2002 12:01 am
Location: Gainesville, FL

Re: Bombs strike terror in London

Postby Selma in Sandy Eggo » Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:24 pm

Two broken buttons, ten days. Who's holding?

I'd classify it as cynical speculation - not a flat negative.

Excuse me, I have to go check my button basket.
>^..^<
Selma in Sandy Eggo
1st Chair
 
Posts: 6273
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:01 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Bombs strike terror in London

Postby GreatCarouser » Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:16 pm

Originally posted by hal 9000:
Here is some really Good News coming out of Iraq. Let's hope it is true.
I'm posting this story . I'm not posting it for it's primary focus although it certainly seems to bear on Haggis' comment about the Egyptian bombing, but because it also reports briefly on the matter in hal's link.
Sacred cows make the best hamburger.
Mark Twain
GreatCarouser
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 12:01 am
Location: Semi-permanent Vacation CA

Re: Bombs strike terror in London

Postby lliam » Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:29 am

Originally posted by DavidS:
lliam
It is not difficult to understand the dilemma you, I, and everyone in the civilised world faces.
Just for the record, did the poor bloke killed so tragically by the police jump the barrier before, or after, being apprehended?
Hi Dave, sorry I've only just seen your message, the guy in question jumped the barrier whilst being chased by plain clothed police.
Lliam.

I spent 90% of my money on women and drink. The rest I wasted - George Best
lliam
2nd Chair
 
Posts: 1698
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Darlaston - West - Midlands - U.K.

PreviousNext

Return to The Debate Team

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron