Katrina

[piqaboo]

Actually, I expect it to feed them.

"Prochaska said a rule of thumb is that the length of sheet piling below a canal bottom should be two to three times longer than the length extending above the canal bottom"

Was this true 'state of the art' back when the flood control wall was built? Or is that more current knowledge? (I have no idea).

If this was state of the art back then, it will fuel theories of conspiracy in corruption along these lines: all those folks who signed off on the plans had to be involved. The driving motivation would be someone (contractor probably) who wanted to save a little money (make a little money) by shorting on materials.

Not saying I buy this theory - but thats what I expect to happen.

<small>[ 12-02-2005, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: piqaboo ]</small>

[OperaTenor]

I wonder how many ACE flood control projects were being built at the same time as the NOLA flood walls......

[Haggis@wk]

Well, I was more or less referring to the rumor that the levees (levi? levies?) were blown up, etc.

You might be right though, there are some ( towards OT) who can find a conspiracy anywhere about anything.

Just because OT's paranoid doesn't mean there's no one out to get him

[BigJon@Work]

Can we disband the Army Corpse of Engineers now like Aurther Anderson?

[Shapley]

From what I've heard, the seawalls that failed were installed in lieu of standard earthen levees because of local opposition. It seems the people of New Orleans did not want to give up the necessary land to construct a proper earthen levee, such as the Corps typically builds along the Mississippi River floodplain, and the seawalls were a compromise. If this is true, it is a poor compromise, but some of the fault will have to lie with the locals who blocked construction of a proper barrier, mandating the use of the inferior design in their stead.

It is worth noting that none of the earthen levees failed during hurricane Katrina.

V/R
Shapley

[BigJon@Work]

Mean ol' levee
taught me to weep and moan . . .

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

I'm still hoping that New Orleans and the ACE will consider the Venice model. Forget holding the water back, just make some high ground.

[piqaboo]

Yup.They can use the soil dredged out of mission bay, and other low land / wetland reclaimation projects. Will smell a bit funky for a while, and about 10 years of drying and settling would be needed.......

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

I've been given to understand that Nawlins already smells more than a tad funky, lakebottom aromas might actually improve the local atmosphere. And since the ACE claims to already be continually dredging the river to keep it deep enough for navigation, that might be another easy mud source.

Not that I've seen what the dredge off the bottom of the Mississippi.

[Shapley]

It seems to me that Venice is also crumbling and sinking.

Granted, it's life expectancy is still greater than New Orleans, and it has already survived a good deal longer...

[barfle]

Originally posted by Shapley:
It seems to me that Venice is also crumbling and sinking.

Granted, it's life expectancy is still greater than New Orleans, and it has already survived a good deal longer...

At least Venice is above sea level, if not by much.

Having been to both Venice and New Orleans, both have a lot of charm, and it would be a shame to lose either one. I know one day I was in St. Mark's square, and the tide came in. It was a good foot deep in the square. They have scaffolding ready for just that circumstance. I do fear for the tower there, though. It was the only one I didn't want to climb. It's worth noting that the earthquake in Assissi happened while I was in Italy.

There's also a project to dam off the end of the Adriatic sea when the tide rises above the level of the islands, keeping the floors in all those beautiful churches a little drier.

[Shapley]

Barfle,

I've not been to Venice, but I read an article on it a while back. Apparently, the flooding has become more pronounced in the past century, due to subsidence. I suppose damming the Adriatic may help, but from what I've read they may be a day late and a dollar short.

V/R
Shapley

[BigJon@Work]

If you read the science, the subsidence in Venice has been greatly accelerated by man's actions.

[Shapley]

The article I read didn't get into the cause of the subsidence, it concerned the potential loss of architectural treasures should the city continue to sink.

[Shapley]

For anyone interested, here is a report on the subsidence in Venice:

http://www.geotimes.org/oct00/fieldnotes.html

I see in this article reference to the cause of the acceleration BigJon mentions.

V/R
Shapley

[Selma in Sandy Eggo]

Yup. Ancient peasants made those islands out of shallow spots in the lagoon by adding mud & rocks. Then their descendents got rich and built big heavy houses and cathedrals and stopped adding mud to the tops of the islands.

And the pumped out groundwater?

Nawlins and Venice are both located in the middle of swamps at the end of rivers. I guess plan A (levees and walls) and plan B (mud islands) both have drawbacks. Is there a plan C?

[barfle]

Originally posted by Shapley:
Barfle,

I've not been to Venice, but I read an article on it a while back. Apparently, the flooding has become more pronounced in the past century, due to subsidence. I suppose damming the Adriatic may help, but from what I've read they may be a day late and a dollar short.

V/R
Shapley

I remember reading about Venice in elementary school in the 1950s, and they were concerned about the wakes from power boats eroding the edges of the islands.

If you happen to visit St. Marks' Cathedral, the floor is quite wavy. Some people will try to tell you it's to mimic the water's surface, but really it's because the foundation of wooden pilings rotted away hundreds of years ago.

Damming the Adriatic may be late, but with it's certainly not for any shortage of Euros. Of course, the Venetians know full well that what they have is valuable. It's been a tourist trap (although one worth tripping, IMNSHO) for almost a thousand years.

[Shapley]

Selma,

RE: Plan C

A floating city?

V/R
Shapley

[OperaTenor]

Michael Brown really needs to learn to stop whining and accept responsibility for his screwup:

Ex-FEMA Chief Shifts Katrina Blame to DHS

As far as I can tell, he has no proof of his claims, and there is a mountain of evidence that he was the chief architect of inaction.

Additionally, it looks as though there are rival efforts from Brown and Scotty[McClellan] to revise history regarding to the Federal response to Katrina.

:sheesh:

[OperaTenor]

bttp

I'm dyin' to hear how the neocons will rationalize one of GWB's former crony network appointees criticizing GWB.